Is helping a relative hide their assets in this manner illegal?

Standard disclaimer: Not looking for legal advice.

A family member, “Carl,” has a history of deep financial problems. He says that if he deposits money in a bank, his creditors will seize it. He’s working to dig himself out, but you know how that goes.

His mother, “Jan,” opened a bank account on which Carl has power of attorney. Carl uses this as his primary account. Jan does not use the account at all.

Is Jan doing anything illegal? Is she opening herself to financial liability? They live in NY if that has any bearing.

He’s setting up jail time for himself and an investigation into his mothers assets. Since he does this already it’s to late to keep his mother’s assets from being looked into. He does dig himself into a dipper hole the longer he does this. I have to wonder how long until he starts in on his mother’s assets. Won’t she be suprised, when she finds she’s broke.

HD,

Why do you believe that any of his mother’s assets are in this account?
Also, can I get a cite for how he is setting himself up for jail time? Name the law in question.
By the way, if I were Carl I would consider pre-paid VISA/MC gift cards or Traveller’s Cheques. Carl should probably talk to an attorney in Collections/Bankruptcy practice to see where he can stick assets (legally) to make them as tricky as humanly possible to seize.

Its called fraud. By knowingly helping her son hide assets illegally the mother may be charged with criminal conspiracy. Not to mention the possibility of running afoul of the IRS. If he is not reporting the account as an asset he may be charged with tax evasion.

Interesting that your advice rather than suggesting he pay his legally incurred debts, he should try to hide them. thats a recipe for disaster that will lead to never getting out from under his problems.

In fact hiding assets is a basis for denial of a petition for bankruptcy (See 11 USC 727 (a)(4)(A). So if he ever decides to avail himself of the protection of bankruptcy laws your advice would preclude him.

I am not your lawyer, you are not my client, this is not legal advice.

Probably nothing “illegal” in her allowing him to use her account. If she is subpoenaed http://public.leginfo.state.ny.us/LAWSSEAF.cgi?QUERYTYPE=LAWS+&QUERYDATA=$$CVP5224$$@TXCVP0R5224+&LIST=LAW+&BROWSER=55667108+&TOKEN=23882459+&TARGET=VIEW she’d be committing perjury if she lied about it. If she told the truth, the creditors would get the money.

Which section of the penal code are you referring to? There’s this one:

http://public.leginfo.state.ny.us/LAWSSEAF.cgi?QUERYTYPE=LAWS+&QUERYDATA=$$PEN185.00$$@TXPEN0185.00+&LIST=LAW+&BROWSER=31296879+&TOKEN=01588110+&TARGET=VIEW

But to violate that statute, she’d have to know “that proceedings have been or are aboutto be instituted for the appointment of an administrator,” or “that a composition agreement or other arrangement for the benefit of creditors has been or is about to be made.” That’s certainly not in the OP or Mr. Slant’s advice. Were you thinking of another one?

And 11 USC § 727(a)(4) reads:

(Emphasis added).

So the only way the debtor would be refused discharge based on that provision is if in the bankruptcy case, or in connection with it, he lied under oath or gave a false accounting. I don’t see Mr. Slant advising him to do any of that. OTOH, if he failed to list the account on his schedules or lied about them under oath at his meeting of creditors, he could be denied discharge.

Yes.

OK Gfactor, this is off the top of my head, but what about the fact that creditors would not be able to seize the assets in question without a judgement. If they do have a judgement then would not hiding the assets be in violation of that judgement?

BTW, suppose Carl and and Jan claim that he “gave” the money to her. If the gift happened after he was sued or became insolvent, it would probably be a fraudulent conveyance. http://public.leginfo.state.ny.us/LAWSSEAF.cgi?QUERYTYPE=LAWS+&QUERYDATA=$$DCD273$$@TXDCD0273+&LIST=SEA3+&BROWSER=38426363+&TOKEN=53900595+&TARGET=VIEW
Carl’s creditors could have the conveyance set aside. http://public.leginfo.state.ny.us/LAWSSEAF.cgi?QUERYTYPE=LAWS+&QUERYDATA=$$DCD278$$@TXDCD0278+&LIST=SEA3+&BROWSER=13353914+&TOKEN=53900595+&TARGET=VIEW

  1. Money judgments aren’t violated, the creditor needs to execute them. Most states give creditors broad powers to search for and seize assets, including the power to set aside fraudulent conveyances, as indicated above.
  1. Most creditors (except child support, tax, and student loan authorities) have to get a judgment before they can seize assets. But even creditors without judgments are not without remedies:

http://public.leginfo.state.ny.us/LAWSSEAF.cgi?QUERYTYPE=LAWS+&QUERYDATA=$$DCD279$$@TXDCD0279+&LIST=SEA3+&BROWSER=07633677+&TOKEN=53900595+&TARGET=VIEW

(Emphasis added).http://public.leginfo.state.ny.us/LAWSSEAF.cgi?QUERYTYPE=LAWS+&QUERYDATA=$$CVP6201$$@TXCVP06201+&LIST=LAW+&BROWSER=20293760+&TOKEN=07276611+&TARGET=VIEW

Of course, prejudgment attachment is subject to constitutional limits:

A thread that discusses some related issues: Suing Yourself and Garnishing Wages to Frustrate Creditors

Thanks for the replies. My take is that as long as Jan doesn’t lie under oath regarding the nature of this arrangement, she’s in the clear. Additionally, Carl risks only losing these assets assuming he doesn’t try to hide them if court proceedings are initiated.

So how protected from discovery by creditors is the arrangement the Jan and Carl have? Would pre-pais visa/MC gift cards or travellers cheques be substantially better?

Also, sure Carl should consult a lawyer but how are payment arrangements made when one is flat broke?

A good collection lawyer will ask about all of that stuff. So Carl would have to commit perjury to hide them. Perjury is illegal.

A relative could spring for a short consultation. Or Carl could call Legal Aid . Or there are books.

But most legal asset protection methods will be useless against existing creditors.

For clarity here, I NEVER suggested lying.
The law prohibits you from perjuring yourself when asked a question in court.
Likewise it prohibits you from lying on a bankruptcy petition.
It DOES NOT require you to make it easy for your creditors to seize your assets.
If a court orders you to disclose your assets, DO SO. There is no debtors’ prison but there sure as Og is a “lied to the judge” prison.
If your creditor asks outside of certain legal contexts, nothing compels you to answer.
If your assets are meager enough, the resources your creditors will devote to collecting from you are limited.
I’m sure Carl is just using his mom as a way to avoid carrying unsafe sums of cash on his person. Carl should certainly pay my next car insurance bill, but if he keeps it in a bank account he might have it seized and wind up unemployed due to lapsed insurance coverage. This serves no one’s interests; not those of Carl, Carl’s creditors or society. Carl probably shouldn’t make a habit of carrying ALL of his money on his person at all times, as that is unsafe.
Don’t take my posts as a suggestion that you not pay your creditors. If you can pay them, DO SO. If you have to choose between having a job, living in a place with running water and electricity VS paying your creditors, choose not to pay them now.
This post verged on off-topic for GQ, but I felt that at least one poster developed a view of what I posted earlier that doesn’t reflect my intent, my ethics or my opinions.

Right on. :smiley:

Oh, and, uh… I meant to say Carl should pay HIS next car insurance bill. Not my next car insurance bill. Although if Carl hits the lottery, I’d like him to pay off all his creditors, and maybe for my advice in this board he could pay for a nice dinner for me and my wife.

Just a note on this tangent, the IRS is not interested in assets, they are interested in income. If the bank account pays interest then “Jan” will receive a 1099-INT and will be required to pay taxes on it. The IRS doesn’t know or care about “Carl” w.r.t. this account and he is not evading taxes since the account is not in his name. If “Jan” wants to give “Carl” the interest that she earns on the account, it is irrelevant to the IRS (unless it is more than $10,000 in a year, but it doesn’t sound like that comes into play in this situation). As long as “Jan” is paying the taxes there is no evasion.

A lawyer would have to comment on the personal liability of an attorney-in-fact to pay taxes on income from such an account, but I think the answer is none as long as the registered owner is paying them.

Actually the payment of taxes would probably have to be reported as income by Carl. Can someone else pay your taxes?

The reality is: the interest is Carl’s income. As the Slate article points out, no law says you have to pay your own taxes, but you run into an infinite regress. No matter how many times Jan pays the taxes on the payment of the taxes for the the payment of the taxes, the event itself will generate income to Carl, which will (theoretically) be taxable. I’d bet that at some point, the income would become too small to matter.

Not true. Hiding assets for the IRS can be a crime also. If for example you filed for an “Offer in Compromise” and you had assets hidden like that, it certainly could be a crime. IRS Revenue Officers can & do turn dudes over to Criminal Investigation if it appears that someone who owes the IRS does have the assets to pay but is attempting to hide those assets in such a manner.

In this case, for example, if “CarL” does this, and the IRS finds out, they can also sieze just about all of “Jan’s” liquid assets too.

IANAL. But there is nothing for Jan to gain, and a lot to lose. If he needs to hide his assets, he should buy travelers checks or money orders, or just hide the cash under the mattress. However, if he does so, for gawdssakes, he’d better not lie about them.

Another thing Carl could be doing is hiding assets in order to file bankruptcy or apply for Assistance. In these cases, Carl is likely commiting a crime, and his mother may also be doing so.

YMMV.

Wrong. Jan is opening herself up to exposure as the transferee of a fraudulent transfer – from what you’ve written, I think it’s pretty clear that these are fraudulent transfers. What does this mean? It means Jan could be sued at a later date for the money she received.

Carl is in a lot of financial trouble. He needs to quit trying to play a shell game with his creditors and talk to a bankruptcy lawyer. He might have discharge issues as well depending on when the transfers take place in relation to his petition date.

I don’t think Carl is in any criminal trouble, though I am not familiar with the New York penal code, for the fraudfulent transfers to Jan. The mention of perjury presumes that a deposition or some other oath or affirmation has taken place. That fact was not given in the OP though.

New York still calls 'em fraudulent conveyances, as I pointed out in post #7.

Under the Uniform Fraudulent Conveyance Act, the transferee’s “exposure” is nil, they just have to give the stuff back. http://www.3dca.flcourts.org/3d02-2105.pdf (pdf) As I understand the OP, Jan isn’t willing to lie for Carl, so it probably would not even come to litigation. OTOH, Jan might lose some time responding to lawyers for the various creditors.

Here is a copy of the Uniform Fraudulent Conveyance Act (Wyoming’s, since the New York site appears to be down right now):

http://legisweb.state.wy.us/statutes/titles/title34/chapter14.htm

Again, though, since Jan isn’t claiming an interest in the money, a judgment creditor could reach the money by garnishing, which would be cheaper and faster. Fraudulent conveyance would really only come into play if Jan claims that the money belongs to her.

How so?

Sage advice.

I am not your lawyer. I am not a licensed attorney in New York. You are not my client. This is for informational and entertainment purposes only and should not be relied upon as legal advice. Not to be uses for birth control or the prevention of disease.