Straight Dope on Falun Gong

[DanBlather]

What's the Straight Dope on Falun Gong? Are they a religion, a cult, or a political organization? Are they tied into the Moonies somehow? What's the deal with The Epoch Times?

[Stan Shmenge]

The Falun Gong is a cult. That being said, they are being brutally treated by the Chinese government. They have maintained a more or less constant protest against the Chinese embassy in Manhattan. I spoke to a member who had the glassy stare of any good brainwashed cultist. Having the idea that the Chinese would respond to protest just goes to show the extent of that brainwashing. It is very sad really.

[Mrs O'Malley's Cow]

Here is some information on them: http://www.apologeticsindex.org/f02.html

As much as I don't think cults are right, no one should be treating anyone with the brutality that the Chinese Govt. is known for.

[Mrs O'Malley's Cow]

It doesn't seem they are tied to the Moonies but there are some Moonieish beliefs.

[Derleth]

If the word cult is going to mean anything sensible whatsoever, it can't have anything to do with beliefs. Calling a religious group a cult, if it is to be anything more than an empty insult, has to be due to that group's behaviors. Cults are controlling and exploitative and do not allow members to leave once they have joined. Cults attempt to cut their followers off from the rest of the world and encourage a total commitment to the cult to the exclusion of keeping ties with family members outside the cult. In short, cults are just like abusive spouses, parents, or partners.

Others can use their own definition that is based more or less on deviance from orthodox belief systems. But by that metric, every religion is a cult.

[Marley23]

Originally Posted by Derleth

If the word cult is going to mean anything sensible whatsoever, it can't have anything to do with beliefs. Calling a religious group a cult, if it is to be anything more than an empty insult, has to be due to that group's behaviors.

As I understand cults, one of their defining characteristics is a leader who is deeply revered and often considered more than human. I'm not an expert on Falun Gong, but they seem to have that going in spades.

[Walloon]

From Merriam-Webster:

cult
1 : formal religious veneration : WORSHIP
2 : a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also : its body of adherents
3 : a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also : its body of adherents

[Mrs O'Malley's Cow]

Originally Posted by Derleth

If the word cult is going to mean anything sensible whatsoever, it can't have anything to do with beliefs. Calling a religious group a cult, if it is to be anything more than an empty insult, has to be due to that group's behaviors. Cults are controlling and exploitative and do not allow members to leave once they have joined. Cults attempt to cut their followers off from the rest of the world and encourage a total commitment to the cult to the exclusion of keeping ties with family members outside the cult. In short, cults are just like abusive spouses, parents, or partners.

Others can use their own definition that is based more or less on deviance from orthodox belief systems. But by that metric, every religion is a cult.

Read about this group. They are controlling. This man does demand complete loyalty to him. This is one of the more bizarre ones. It has the charasmatic leader. The whole shebang. It has everything to do with their beliefs and actions.

Every religion is not a cult. The religion I am in encourages exploration and questions and relationships with those who may not agree with you. It is part of the learning process.

[Carnac the Magnificent!]

Originally Posted by Derleth

If the word cult is going to mean anything sensible whatsoever, it can't have anything to do with beliefs. Calling a religious group a cult, if it is to be anything more than an empty insult, has to be due to that group's behaviors. Cults are controlling and exploitative and do not allow members to leave once they have joined. Cults attempt to cut their followers off from the rest of the world and encourage a total commitment to the cult to the exclusion of keeping ties with family members outside the cult. In short, cults are just like abusive spouses, parents, or partners.

Others can use their own definition that is based more or less on deviance from orthodox belief systems. But by that metric, every religion is a cult.

I don't see how your premises/definitions support your sweeping conclusion that "all religion is a cult."

Most mainstream (i.e. non fundamentalist) religious groups in the US are not objectively exploitative, do not prevent members from leaving once joined, do not attempt to cut followers from the rest of the world, nor do they encourage "total" commitment to the cult, whatever that might mean. We can debate the term "exploitative," but remember that religion as practiced differs from religious doctrine. I'd go a step further and say many fundamentalist groups do not fit these criteria either, although exceptions certainly exist.

[Crowbar of Irony +3]

The Chinese Government supposedly try to discredit them by saying they practise "dangerous beliefs", such as teaching their followers not to go to hospital for treatment, avoid medication and that they will be invicinble, unharmable by any weapons.

[Manda JO]

Originally Posted by Carnac the Magnificent!

I don't see how your premises/definitions support your sweeping conclusion that "all religion is a cult."

Most mainstream (i.e. non fundamentalist) religious groups in the US are not objectively exploitative, do not prevent members from leaving once joined, do not attempt to cut followers from the rest of the world, nor do they encourage "total" commitment to the cult, whatever that might mean. We can debate the term "exploitative," but remember that religion as practiced differs from religious doctrine. I'd go a step further and say many fundamentalist groups do not fit these criteria either, although exceptions certainly exist.

Originally Posted by Derleth

Others can use their own definition that is based more or less on deviance from orthodox belief systems. But by that metric, every religion is a cult. [emphasis added]

He agrees with you, Ithink: he's objecting that a casual use of the term "cult" risks incorporating damn near everyone.

[Carnac the Magnificent!]

Originally Posted by Manda JO

He agrees with you, Ithink: he's objecting that a casual use of the term "cult" risks incorporating damn near everyone.

Derleth improves with many readings.

[Happy Clam]

According to The Independent, they also have highly unnattractive views on homosexuality and race, believe that their leader can fly, walk on water and talk to god, and encourage absolute obedience to the movement's commands. On the other hand, the meditation/exercise technqiues that make up a good deal of Falun Gong's core beliefs apparently do have health benefits and were officially endorsed by the Chinese government prior to their popular (not necessarily political) demonstrations in 1992 or thereabouts. I don't think they are an overtly political movement (most of their demonstrations seem to be basically "stop persecuting us"- which is reasonable, I suppose). They seem to be focused on spiritual development, whatever that may mean.

[FlyingRamenMonster]

Does anyone know how the government tracks down believers? All I ever hear about are protesters getting arrested during protests. Finding them when they're not gathered in large, obvious groups seems kind of unproductive to me. Not to justify the government's actions or anything, but maybe if they stopped protesting, they'd stop being persecuted?

Just as an anecdote, my grandma and several or her friends were heavily into Falun Gong some 8 years back. They've all since dismissed it as bogus but back then they bought all the books and slept with them under their pillows and crap. Everybody knew and nobody cared. Except, of course, for LittleRamenMonster and her cousin who thought it would be *hilarious* to make fun of it every chance they got

[Happy Clam]

Well, given that citizens can be arrested and imprisoned for crimes such as possessing a photograph of the Dalai Lama, I should imagine that they arrest anyone they find in possession of the books, photographs of the leader, Falun Gong equipment (those mediation mats, for example), whatever. As to how they find them? Well, China is a police state- surveillance and random searches, I'd think.

[Stan Shmenge]

Plus every block has a "nosy neighbor" who will turn you in. (1.)

1. "The Execution of Mayor Yin and Other Stories from the Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution" Chen Jo-hsi

Great book.

[Hunter Hawk]

FWIW, my tai chi teacher once mentioned that there really is a Falun Gong school of qigong, but that the well-known Falun Gong people don't actually practice it.

[Shalmanese]

Originally Posted by Happy Clam

Well, China is a police state- surveillance and random searches, I'd think.

Random searches? cite? China is very far away from a police state and nobody I know living there would tolerate random searches of their apartments without a warrant or just cause.

[Operation Ripper]

Originally Posted by Shalmanese

Random searches? cite? China is very far away from a police state and nobody I know living there would tolerate random searches of their apartments without a warrant or just cause.

Cultural Revolution, Tiananmen Square ring a bell?

[FlyingRamenMonster]

Originally Posted by Operation Ripper

Cultural Revolution, Tiananmen Square ring a bell?

What, you think EVERY day in China is June 4th?

[DanBlather]

Is the Epoch Times a Falun Gong newspaper?

[Operation Ripper]

Originally Posted by FlyingRamenMonster

What, you think EVERY day in China is June 4th?

Yep, pretty much, cite, google away for plenty more. Also check out the "reforms" that have been pushed on Hong Kong, want me to google them for you as well?

[FlyingRamenMonster]

Basically, the villagers constructed dikes illegallly, and were injured while protesting their destruction?

D:

Tell me, have you ever *lived* in China?

[Snooooopy]

Former Duran Duran and Soul Asylum drummer Sterling Campbell turned to Falun Gong. So now it's a cult that rocks!

[Derleth]

Originally Posted by Marley23

As I understand cults, one of their defining characteristics is a leader who is deeply revered and often considered more than human. I'm not an expert on Falun Gong, but they seem to have that going in spades.

See, this is one of those things I have a problem with. Once we start down this road, where does it end? "Cults make their followers shave their heads." "Cults require their followers to wear special underpants." "Cults occasionally observe fast days." I've already branded a few major religions as 'cults' with those little jibes.

Cults are abusive. That is the only definition that matters.

[China Guy]

Originally Posted by Operation Ripper

Cultural Revolution, Tiananmen Square ring a bell?

dude, the cultural revolution basically ended in 1971 although not officially pronounced dead until 1976.

i'll give you a head's up that people who were directly or indirectly negatively affected by the cultural revolution generally find it deeply offensive for someone that knows little to throw out the CR as some panacea.

tian'anmen was a tragedy. however the economy has doubled more than twice as the modernization of china goes at breakneck speed. the china of 1989 bears little resemblance to today.
and my family has relatives that still live in the countryside that were resettled in the 60's, others that did time in the loagai, others that were struggled etc. and i was here before 1989 and still here now and seen many of the changes good & bad.

falun gong are a buncha wacko nutjob brainwashing cultists with a messanical leader demanding total obedience & cash.

ya wanna get your panties in a twist over religion in china, there are plenty of religions and groups that could use help instead of flg masquerading as a persecuted religion.

[GargoyleWB]

Originally Posted by Operation Ripper

Yep, pretty much, cite, google away for plenty more. Also check out the "reforms" that have been pushed on Hong Kong, want me to google them for you as well?

By that standard, every day in the US is a Rodney King race riot.

Having visited China, it is far from a police state, and has changed greatly over the last 20 years. State-managed capitalism, and a general "live and let live, just don't rock the boat" ethic.

[Lemur866]

China has seen quite a few of these mystery cults metamorphose into potentially regime-toppling armed movements.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_L...ty_%28triad%29

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fists_of_Righteous_Harmony

[Marley23]

Originally Posted by Derleth

See, this is one of those things I have a problem with. Once we start down this road, where does it end?

I completely understand your point, and I wouldn't argue against it. I was trying to deal with one aspect the question "is Falun Gong a cult, as most people today use the term?" Yes, the term is selectively applied. But in terms of the veneration of Li Gong, Falun Gong fits the bill in my opinion.

Cults are abusive. That is the only definition that matters.

"Abusive" is so subjective that I doubt it'd make a good definition.

[Derleth]

Originally Posted by Marley23

"Abusive" is so subjective that I doubt it'd make a good definition.

I don't think so, if you keep in mind that I meant the term to mean the same things it means when a relationship between two people is described as abusive in a legal context, as the basis for a charge of child abuse or spousal abuse or similar. I think the definition of 'cult' can be placed on a footing just as firm.

[Grossbottom]

Originally Posted by Lemur866

China has seen quite a few of these mystery cults metamorphose into potentially regime-toppling armed movements.

That's what I was thinking. The "invincible to weapons" thing is just so Fists of Righteous Harmony, and everyone is using it these days, but I guess it's cheaper than recruiting educated people and giving them body armor.

[Throatwarbler Mangrove]

Here's a little history of FLG for you. The founder of FLG, Li Hong Zhi, started the thing in the mid 90s. At that time, and still more so now, China was absolutely awash with crackpots selling health and wellness snake oil, many of which are products that have been discredited as such in the west a long time ago. All the miracle hair growth, weight loss, electric-shock belly shrinking pseudoscience wonder gadgets in the last 10 years were flooding into China on the wave of unregulated consumerism into the homes of largely ignorant buyers. FLG is one of these.

At the beginning, the Chinese goverment actually supported FLG, just as it often supports "Traditional Chinese" medicine, regardless of it having any scientific basis. It's sort of a nationalistic policy. The problem began in 1998-99, when several prominent scientists, real ones, wrote (completely reasonable) articles denoucing FLG as a "feudal superstition". This, to the suprise of everyone, resulted in large scale demonstrations first aimed at the authors of the articles, and then in front of the Chinese seat of goverment itself (ZhongNanHai). Feudal Superstition is a rather loaded term in China, as the goverment makes a distinction between "religion", which is permissible, and "superstition", which is not. The line is a little blurry, but once you build up a following large and assertive enough to launch protests and intimidate university professors on campus, you were pretty much guaranteed "cult" status (heh). The fact that the FLG advocates beliefs that are completely insane, and that Li Hong Zhi made a tidy little fortune(he denies this) before escaping to exile in the US is just sort of icing on the cake.

Now, after the goverment cracked down, that vast majority of "practitioners" simply stopped(in pulbic, anyway), as per the goverment instructions, and not much more was said. The hard core protestors were of course arrested, and some progressive types grumbled a little about the principle of the whole thing, but all in all most ordinary Chinese are rather indifferent to the entire matter, and dismiss the protestors and self immolators as misguided nutcases, which they generally are.

I have no opinion of the "cult" status as set out by the posters here, but according to wiki:

Is Falun Gong a cult?

Critics of Falun Gong in the West argue that because of the relationship of dependency that Li Hongzhi establishes between himself and his followers, using what they say are a variety of manipulative techniques, the Falun Gong should be thought of as a cult rather than a new religious movement or metaphysical qigong. A number of American cult experts, including Rick Ross, Margaret Singer and Steven Hassan, have claimed that Li Hongzhi meets their definition of a manipulative cult leader. While cult experts have not reached a consensus definition for a cult, they often focus on what is considered the coercive behavior of the group leader as an indicator for the potentially damaging aspects of a particular group. In a New Times article (March 23-29, 2000) cult expert Margaret Singer stated: “Some will say it’s not but Falun Gong looks like a cult to me. My criteria is a self-appointed person with secret knowledge to share, who gets his followers convinced he is the pipeline to the eternal good life. Doesn’t that sound like Master Li?”

Different theories of what constitutes thought control have also emerged, but again without consensus. American psychologist and exit counselor Steve Hassan has “grave concerns about the personage of Li Hongzhi, head of the Falun Dafa and his organization.” [81] In his 2002 book Releasing the Bonds: Empowering People to Think for Themselves, Hassan describes the BITE (Behavior, Information, Thought and Emotion) model, which explains mind control as a combination of control over behavior, information, thought and emotions. Hassan believes that Li Hongzhi “comes very much out of the cult extreme, the authoritarian stereotype” [82]. On his website [83], Hassan states:

As far as the controls exerted by the group on individuals, I am not convinced that this group (Falun Gong) fulfills my BITE model in its entirety. I have not had an opportunity to interview any individuals who have been very involved with this group and decided to leave. I do have a strong impression that Thought control and Phobia indoctrination (emotional control) is very much used. People are made to feel that the only "true" path is by following Li Hongzhi, and that to fail to do so would result in serious physical health problems manifesting.

However, opinions within the scientific community are notably varied. According to Philip Jenkins (2000) (quoted by Porter 2003), along with fringe religious groups almost always came movements to denounce or even eradicate them; the definition of a cult was not created in a vacuum, but rather is "a prefabricated script some centuries in the making, incorporating charges that might originally have been developed long ago against a wide variety of movements". Porter points out that supernormality was already a part of qigong before Falun Gong was introduced, as was moral guidance. Also, "Falun Gong does not force practitioners to sign contracts, threaten physical or economic harm for apostasy, or any other such coercive methods that are often attributed to cults. If someone tried Falun Gong and disliked it for any reason, they would have nothing to fear from practitioners. Also, it is interesting to note that practitioners are cognizant that Falun Gong does not fit neatly into categories like qigong or religion, and some are looking for more accurate ways of describing it to non-practitioners." Porter also opines that it is unfair to make comparisons between Falun Gong and cults such as People's Temple and Branch Davidians; "such statements irresponsibly leave the impression that Falun Gong has similarities to these violent groups, when in fact Falun Gong practitioners have consistently refused to use violence against those who persecute them."

The "thought control" theory greatly divides scholars. The scientific evidence on such phenomena remains inconclusive. For example, in 1984 the American Psychological Association (APA) requested Margaret Singer to set up a working group called Task Force on Deceptive and Indirect Methods of Persuasion and Control (DIMPAC). In 1987, the committee submitted its final report to the Board of Social and Ethical Responsibility for Psychology of the APA. On 11 May 1987 the Board rejected the report. In the rejection memo is stated: "Finally, after much consideration, BSERP does not believe that we have sufficient information available to guide us in taking a position on this issue." [84]

Sociologist Susan Palmer's field notes and a preliminary research report on Falun Dafa practitioners were released in the Nova Religio journal (nr. 4, 1 October 2000). The article states: "When I first decided to embark on studying Falun Gong, I hoped to crack the surface within a month and expected to find an efficient core group behind the scenes, masterminding the missionary programs. I had researched other new religions whose leaders were in seclusion... But Falun Gong does not behave like other new religions. For one thing, its organization - if one can even call it that - is quite nebulous. There are no church buildings, rented spaces, no priests or administrators. At first I assumed this was defensive, that they had established guerrilla-style cells to fend off an intolerant Communist Party. By now, I'm beginning to think that what you see is exactly what you get - Master Li's letters on the Net on the one hand and a global network of practitioners on the other. Traveling through North America, all I dug up was a handful of volunteer contact persons. The local membership (they vehemently reject that word) is whoever happens to show up at the park on a particular Saturday morning to do qigong."

[Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor]

Originally Posted by Lemur866

China has seen quite a few of these mystery cults metamorphose into potentially regime-toppling armed movements.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_L...ty_%28triad%29

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fists_of_Righteous_Harmony

I think that the TAIPING REBELLION (LINK) explains a lot about Modern China's attitude towards both religious cults and towards Western calls for religious freedom.

The Taiping Rebellion (1851–1864) was perhaps the bloodiest civil war in human history, a clash between the forces of the Qing Empire in China and those inspired by a Hakka self-proclaimed mystic named Hong Xiuquan, a Christian convert who had claimed that he was the new Messiah and younger brother of Jesus Christ. He and his followers established the Kingdom of Heavenly Peace (Traditional Chinese: 太平天國; Hanyu Pinyin: Tàipíng Tiānguó; Wade-Giles: T'ai-p'ing t'ien-kuo) and attained control of significant parts of southern China. Most accurate sources put the total deaths at about 20 million civilians and army personnel, although some claim the death toll was much higher (as many as 50 million according to at least one source.[1]

Please go back & read my linked article. Thank you.

[China Guy]

[quote=kawaiitentaclebeast]Here's a little history of FLG for you.[/QUOTE=kawaiitentaclebeast]dang, t at was a great summation you wrote up. thanks

[Johanna]

Cult or not, nothing can justify the removal of organs from living donors involuntarily.

http://www.theepochtimes.com/news/6-4-24/40734.html

[Mr. Slant]

Wow.
Johana, thanks for that link!
Ick. Thpppt.
Guys, is that link credible? I wanted to think it was a hoax, but that site LOOKS professional. Is the Epoch Times a trustworthy media source?

[FlyingRamenMonster]

Well, here is the Wiki article on it... reading it has made me realise that I actually get that paper here. In fact, I line my guinea pigs' cage with it That's not meant to show what I think of it, by the way. It just happens to be a free broadsheet newspaper.