TubaDiva, a word (or hundreds) if you please

Tuba

First of all, thank you for allowing me to air out my grievances here. In the grand scheme, they are minor issues. My neighborhood is not being blown up by car bombs. There are no rampaging soldiers going door to door destroying our homes. No raping of children or mass murders or weather related disasters anywhere around my immediate vicinity that I know of. But those things go on in other places, and my complaint is trivial when placed in their context.

However, I don’t live in the grand scheme. I live in a small part of the world, a significance portion of which is this community, the Straight Dope. I don’t have to be here; I’m here by choice because I love the people here, and the things they say. No, not all of them, and no, not always. But the vast majority. And some who were enemies before have been kind enough to mend fences with me. RedFury, EddyTeddyFreddy, Twickster, and others.

Yes, I know. My life is pathetic, but there it is.

Because this board is important to me, you occupy a very special place in my life. You are, after all, second in command only to Ed himself. You and I have never been enemies. You are so important to us (my wife and I) that we think of you during holidays and special times. You visited our grandson’s website, where you left a touching message that we both still cherish. When you and I correspond, we almost always ask about one another’s well being and wish each other well.

Knowing what I do of you, I’m confident that that is not some special treatment that you reserve for us. As I imagine it, you correspond throughout the day with members of SDMB, and are likely just as thoughtful and considerate with all of them as you are with us. I think of you as the mother goddess who spreads her wings to protect us all.

Unfortunately, our last correspondence was not so nice. You have asked that I not quote directly from it, and so I will have to speak of it in paraphrases. You seem to have misunderstood what I was asking for, so in accepting your invitation to open this thread, I’d like to try to start over. I’m not a very good writer because I do not always put down into words what I’m thinking. My thoughts go through my head really fast, and it’s hard to capture them all. This sometimes leaves me sounding cryptic, or having to clarify myself. I understand that, and it is with that in mind that I’d like to try to put together what I’m thinking as carefully and respectfully as I can.

It began with this thread, where I and others were surprised to learn that a particular word was offensive to a particular nationality of people (or at least, to the OP). Apparently, there had been some other discussion about it in a couple of threads, but I knew nothing of it, and neither did many of the other respondents.

Now, as I and others understood it, the OP chose to air his grievance in public (and in the wrong forum) before making any sort of appeal by e-mail or private message. In the past, that has always signaled that a discussion is fair game for the membership at large. The discussion became somewhat heated, but most of that heat came from the OP. And it included this post, in which he directly called me a name: “godbotherer”, a pejorative term which typically references a fanatical evangelist.

I suppose it is inevitable that what the poster said about my usage of “hand-stabber” — a pejorative term which typically references aggressive hard atheists — will have to be addressed, and I am fine with that. First, I already long ago promised not to use the term anymore, and since then I haven’t. Second, I certainly have never directly called anyone a hand-stabber in any ATMB thread. Finally, you have now declared the term to be forbidden altogether, and so no one will be using it anyway anywhere.

And so I reported the post, expecting nothing more than an admonition to MrDibble that he should not call people names outside the Pit. I certainly did not expect him to be banned, and have no idea how you drew that inference. I didn’t even expect an official warning. All I expected was fairness — an enforcement of the rule which prohibits calling people names outside the Pit.

If I understand what you were trying to tell me, and again in the broadest of terms with paraphrasing, you felt that everyone in the thread had misbehaved to such an extent that your only choices were to admonish everyone (which SkipMagic did) or else close the thread (which SkipMagic also did.) That’s fine, and that’s your call; however, the fact remains that one particular member was head and shoulders above all the others with his hostility, and it wasn’t me.

As Anaamika pointed out, after making it clear that she does not generally take my side, MrDibble’s response to me was a personal insult. And in fact, his most ardent defender, aside from Polycarp, told him in no uncertain terms that he was being a jackass.

[Emphasis mine]

There is no question that he insulted me personally, and yeah, like I said, it ain’t a car bomb or anything. But I did what I was supposed to do about it. I reported the post. The next day, I followed up with an e-mail inquiry to one of the mods who intervened in the thread to ask about the status of my complaint. And then, upon his recommendation, I contacted you. Again by e-mail.

And here is my complaint: after going through all the channels we have been told time and again that we should go through, in good faith, and expecting a fair resolution, I am left with his rather bizarre quagmire:

(1) A member was allowed to insult me personally in ATMB without consequence.

(2) I am forbidden henceforth from using the term “hand-stabber”, even though I don’t, and haven’t since February of 2003 when I was explaining to someone what the term meant.

(3) You seem to believe I have called for MrDibble to be banned when I haven’t.

(4) I am forbidden to reference anything actually said in our correspondence, and am therefore obstructed from even defending myself against specific charges.

(5) Even though no one may ever call aggressive hard atheists the name “hand-stabber” even in the Pit, “fundie” and now “godbotherer” are both okay to hurl at people of faith in or out of the Pit.

I’m going to stop with those because the situation they represent is sufficiently bizarre that there is no need to cover the rest of it. And I suspect that most of it, especially some of the more hurtful stuff, was nothing more than an explosion of emotion anyway. I can understand that. As I say, you doubtless have so much correspondence to deal with that you cannot give a thorough consideration to every complaint that arises.

But honestly, Tuba, when I opened your reply, the first thing I wondered was whether you had answered someone else’s complaint by mistake. It bore little resemblance to anything I was asking you about. It did not address any of my questions. It brought up things out of the wild blue yonder that had nothing to do with what transpired or the issue I raised.

At this point, I’m satisfied with having been able to express myself to you. And again, I’m grateful that you allowed it. I’m still gob-smacked by the tone and intensity of your replies, and still bewildered by their sheer irrelevance. But I have been your defender even when you went through your toughest times here, and I’m not going to drag you through any mud now.

I would only ask that, in the future, you try to keep in mind that for some of us, this place is home. You are our mentor. We admire you. If you cannot be thorough, at least be kind.

Sincerely,

Lib

Well, Lib, if things happened just as you described them in the OP, then i’m going to have to agree with you.

Also, while that other thread became something of a trainwreck, i think that the way the mods apportioned blame (i.e., just about equally) was wrong. MrDibble should have been told to knock off the insults, and the thread might have got back on track.

I can’t speak much to your particular problem with TubaDiva, as i haven’t read the email in question. Although, again, if your paraphrasing is accurate, it suggests a rather troubling attitude. The main difference between you and me on this issue, however, if that i lost my illusions about her competence as an administrator a long time (and many similarly stupid incidents) ago.

Nicely expressed, Liberal.

Of course, the fact that you leaped into the thread with an unfair comparison had nothing to do with the train wreck that resulted.

IMHO, this post started the train wreck in question:

Did this and its extra non-related to the op content do anything to help the thread? Do you ever accept responsibility for the train wrecks you cause on a regular basis?
Choices:

[tab]You of course know you were right and everything you posted was correct and so therefore it was fine that you posted it and you are just be harassed now. [/tab]

Or

[tab]You caused the primary train wreck with a post that was not really related to the thread and all about you expressing your own pet peeve. [/tab]

What did the ‘Atheist can Squint’ have to do with the Op?

Jim

What do you hope to get out of this thread, Liberal?

(I hadn’t even heard of the term “hand-stabber” until this thread. Hunh. Learn something new every day.)

Oh, by the way, since that thread got closed, “Eskimo” actually is a pejorative. It means “raw meat eater,” I believe, and was not used to flatter the Inuit. If there were any Inuit on the boards, they might have posted the same OP as Mr.Dibble (I don’t know if there are any Inuit here).

Yep, ethnic slurs are really quite different than disparaging a persons beliefs, Lib. Everything would have been okay if he’d have just pointed out the stupidity of the analogy and not the person making it.

I’m usually accusing Lib of trainwrecking threads, rather than defending him from the charge, but i’m not sure i agree with you here. It might be that his comparison was unfair in your view, but i think it was sufficiently on point to at least merit discussion. Also, whether it was unfair or not, that doesn’t excuse the personal insult he got in return, and for which the perpetrator wasn’t even admonished by the moderators.

And if the response he got from TubaDiva is as he described, i think that’s a relevant issue, independent of whether his initial point in that thread was a valid one.

Hmm. I was also surprised that MrDibble wasn’t chastised for directly insulting someone in ATMB, and instead we all got scolded.

That being said, I think,** Lib**, that a simple comment instead of all the background about the relationship might have sufficed.

I also don’t know what you’re going to get out of this thread. I still think MrDibble came on entirely the wrong way and more in a way to turn people off than get them to listen. DSYoungEsq’s post said it way more clearly than I ever could, though.

I thought “hand-stabbing” was any sort of emphatic statement; I’ve never associated it with atheism. You could be a hand-stabbing politician or whatever. Hmmm…

I don’t get why board business can’t be quoted here. Strange.

No you are not. Since the correspondence was private, there is no justification for public defense of any charges. I am sure **Tuba ** would welcome any private email discussion of her statements. But claiming that it is unjust that you are prevented from airing private laundry in public just underscores your recurring pathological need to churn up a pity party for yourself every few weeks. Perhaps you should mention this to your therapist.

I do take responsibility for what I posted. I have not protested SkipMagic’s admonitions (although I did ask Frank why I was singled out). There was plenty of heat in that thread, and I was a contributor to it. But I didn’t call MrDibble any names. And, of course, it was not a thread about the technical operations of the board, and did not belong in ATMB anyway. The Pit is the place for all discussion regarding administration, including the administration’s policies on hate speech.

What I hope to get out of this thread is to become reconciled with Tuba. I hope she will give my post a careful read, and come to a better understanding of what I was asking for. I hope she will explain how the bizarre state of affairs I enumerated came about. For example, given that there is a difference between an ethnic slur and a theological slur, why has “hand-stabber” now been banned while “fundie” and “godbotherer” have not? If a Muslim or Christian can be called a name, why can’t an aggressive hard atheist be called a name?

Thank you. I really tried hard to encapsulate most of my thoughts.

I’m afraid you are mistaken. I can’t be more detailed than that. This is what I was invited to do, and what I have done.

Pity the poor mods. While they’re desperately trying to sort out whether “Venus Hottentot” is offensive enough to be squelched, they get the term “godbotherer” thrown into the gears of their deliberations. While I have no doubt MrDibble should have gotten a reprimand for it, I can fully sympathize with the mods for not wanting to sort out, at that particular moment, the exact shade of offensiveness of the term.

And Liberal, if you feel strongly, as I believe you do, about not just the futility, but the wrongness, of trying to suppress offensive terms, then why are you fighting this fight?

Then I will reserve judgement until Tuba weighs in.

My honest opinion would be that you reacted (and are still reacting) a lot stronger to being called a god-botherer than the insult warrants. I also think that MrDibble is over-reacting to the Hottentot thing and was wrong to insult you, but that’s neither here nor there. Overall, from your reaction I would tend to guess that you object to being called a god-botherer less because you don’t want to be lumped with Fundies and born-agains, and more because you suspect that you can be lumped in with them.

I couldn’t say whether that impression is accurate, but it is the one you are giving.

But overall the point is that I suspect that whatever problem there is that you’re having with this word is more to do with you, than the word itself. So overall you’re going to do better by trying to figure out what the problem is, than by writing off emails to TubaDiva.

No fight. Just a question: why is the one against nonbelievers suppressed while the one against believers is not? Personally, I wouldn’t ban any of it.

Then think of it not as a bit of injustice, but as a blow for a principle you believe in!

I’m also led to reflect that if I had to change my username, I could do worse than Godbothering Handstabber.

I’m not bothered by any specific term really. I tried really hard to express this already, so I don’t know whether I can do any better, but here goes. There are two (and only two) things: (1) My report about the ad hominem was made in good faith and through proper channels, and should have been dealt with on its own merits; and (2) It seems unfair that atheists be protected while theists are not, just as it would for the reverse. That’s all.

I am just impressed that I learned no less then 3 new insults from these threads (of course using these insults is a different story)

God-botherer
hand-stabber
Hottentot