What if God was an event?

What if, instead of being a “being”, “God” was an event?

What if God was the sense of Other through which we sensed our Selves?
Substitute “realization”, or “experience” for “sense”, if you prefer.

And I’m not saying God is the conclusion of the experience, the “thing” you learn or now know, the value statement that results.

I think God is the experience of the knowledge.

Scratch the guy on the throne, forget about the beard and the lightning and all that. No doubt it worked to explain matters for people a couple of millenia ago, but those details are dated.

But keep some of the current thinking (through science and New Agers) that what we experience is largely determined by what we’ve already made up our minds is true.

For some people, it would be a pretty crappy event, because they’ve figured out their life sucks. Their God would be a raw deal (I think that’s in the Bible somewhere, the God can be a raw deal at times). There are plenty of people for whom that’s true.

But then if something about their life changed and their view of themselves could change, then the experience of the changing event would be God.

And people with a deeper sense of Self, they experience God in lots of places, lots of events. Their Self wouldn’t just be a capital S, it’d be a size 7 capital S.

You hear that all the time, people will say they “saw God” in an especially meaningful moment. Or felt God, when they were serving His purpose in the way that they understand it. There’s always an “other” when someone talks about God - a voice that answers their prayer, an angel (in street clothes) who happens to help them out.

Maybe that experience of the Other - maybe that’s it. The rest is trimmings.

I tried to run this past my husband - he wants the guy on the throne dispensing rules and meting out justice. I figure that’s HIS God. That’s the mechanism through which he understands his existence in the world. When he sees “justice” being served, he can say to himself “Aha! God’s working now!” Which some people do say, and it works for them.

The OP makes a great deal of intuitive sense to me. It reads like a pretty good description of how my spiritual life works. It looks to me truer to real life than the theologies people are told they have to believe. Great OP, fessie.

It is a good idea.

My immediate rebuttal though, is, why bother with “God” at all then, in this paradigm?
Do we need an outside explanatory force besides our own internal feelings and motivations, in such an event?

Are you using the word “God” simply because its a conveinant descriptor of the most powerful possible religious force? Perhaps you’d do better to dispense with the idea of the word “God” due to its baggage, and come up with a more direct and distinct way to describe the experience

Whatever lets you sleep at night.

If you can pick your own description of “God”, then “God” can be anything. If “God” can be anything, she/he/it doesn’t mean anything at all. You could change what you believe is the true nature of “God” tomorrow, and again the next day, but you are not defining or changing the nature of “God”, you are only changing your mind.

What if God was the color blue?

What if God was the number 4?

What if God was one of us? Just a slob like one of us?

the last two responses, I think, illustrate precisely what I was getting at.

You’re taking a recognized concept and applying it to something wholly new.
Why not take your belief structure and abandon the :rolleyes: worthy word “God”.

I appreciate the feedback.

Yeah, I was thinking about that book It’s All God, which I own but never got around to reading, because what’s the point? Once you’ve said “it’s all God” there’s really nowhere else to go.

My thinking is that there IS some kind of widespread phenomenon behind (most?) people’s application of or belief in God. They’ll say “I believe in God because of” and then describe an event where, gee, something significant DID happen. People see it in art, music, newborn babies, calculus. I think they experience something in the world that is a “meta-truth” (if that’s the right word) that confirms their own arrangement of reality, that mirrors and expands on themselves. And I think we’re guided by and need those bits and pieces.

There was a piece in Time about Einstein’s God, from a new book that’s come out. Apparently he was a fan of Spinoza’s God. Here’s a quote, that’s actually from a different website, but I think it gets at what I’m trying to say:

See, for someone of great knowledge, of the world and of Self, God would be huge. But for someone of little knowledge of self and world, God would be small - but not necessarily any less significant. I’m sort of predicating this on my experience that the most peaceful, wise people I know of are also the most aware of God’s presence.

Yet, too, there are “non-God” phenomena as well. For me, anyway, at least. There’ve been times, episodes, in my life when I stepped away from my authentic self for a number of reasons. When I get back into God, I get back into my Self.

And yes, I could put God in quotes here, because I am stepping away from the model used in most religions. But I think this phenomenon is the fuel that keeps the religious model going. People wouldn’t walk away from sermons feeling “Yeah! Right!” if it didn’t resonate with them for some good reason. I think this might be the thing religions tap into.
The God-model I’m trying to create doesn’t provide certain outcomes, but I don’t think that’s true of other descriptions of God, either, unless one sticks to a completely literal reading of the Bible.

But I think the God-model I’ve described is consistent with the need for a moral life, which is a cornerstone of the Judeo-Christian God (right?). You could look at studies that confirm pretty much universal human needs, like a moral, meaningful life, and this model would corroborate that.

I also like the Holy Trinity from Catholicism, and have an interpretation of that to offer. I posted this in the “Value of Faith” thread, but my “Holy Ghost” wasn’t ready yet.

I think that, in a sense, a reliance on the Bible (or any other “Holy Document”) for understanding and directing life (“faith”) is really a lot like relying on empiricism and logic. They’re both external mechanisms, constructs. A person can run their experiences through those machines and what comes out, that’s “true”, because they believe in the validity of the construct. That’s actually where their faith resides, in the machine or the book. Everything else is disregarded, sometimes for good reason, and sometimes merely because it’s threatening.

Here’s something to consider. I’ve borrowed a bit from that Catholic school I went to in first grade.

The “Holy Document” (Bible, Koran, whatever) is “The Father” - someone else’s tale, someone else’s reality. But a reassuring story to many nonetheless. I think most famous religious documents have some real wisdom, mixed in among the superstition and politics. It’s a necessary starting point - my children are 3 and they’re starting to ask those questions, but they’re very literal. They need my story as a beginning framework. Some people, though, want to keep their tale locked in time, want their children to repeat it word-for-word. Some of them retain their insistence on literalism, refusing to look at the Bible in a new light.

Logic and empiricism are “The Son” - an individual’s own experience. Kids don’t have any logic until they’re at least 4, and they can’t grasp it abstractly until around age 7. And yes, in many ways it’s a huge improvement over “The Father”; the new telling of the story has room for growth and improvement because (1) it’s used by an individual on their own quest and not tethered to collective knowledge, and (2) it’s based on the new accumulation of empirical knowledge that has passed since The Father figured things out.

Yet empirical facts, on their own, lack meaning. They don’t contain any value statements. Utility alone doesn’t determine “goodness”.

Which brings me to the third part - the “Holy Ghost”. Perhaps the Holy Ghost is the sense of Other through which we sense our Selves. It’s fleeting, yet present; personal, yet shared at times.

If “god” was an event, what would distinguish that event from any other event of self-awareness? I guess I’m saying that self-awareness isn’t a one-time event. We are constantly realizing and reassessing our place in the world. There isn’t an “ah-HA!” moment.

Boy, if ever a word should be stricken from all vocabularies as useless, my vote would be to dump “god.”

Right! I think that’s how we stay aware of a presence of “God”. And it’s always changing, even as we change. God’s supposed to be infinite, IIRC.

Do you have any actual reasons, or evidence, for believing all this? Or is it merely a vague, rambling, subjective stream of consciousness (or unconsciousness)? And quite amateurish, at that.

Well, since that’s not what “god” is to everyone, why don’t we just stick with the understood term, “self-awareness” so we don’t have misunderstandings? Most people believe god holds supernatural powers of some sort. Self-awareness doesn’t.

Well, what I was trying to do is get at the mechanism behind human “God” beliefs and experiences. Because I believe people who experience it, and I also believe people who say they can’t prove, logically, that God exists. I don’t think anyone’s lying here.

So I thought, hey, what if “He” doesn’t exist, BUT a phenomenon of experiencing “Him” does, and is hard-wired into being human.

God holding supernatural powers…hmmm…aren’t those manifested by human actions? Would it be possible for some human beings to translate vast knowledge of Self and God into something huge? I was just reading about Rostropovic and his incredible “energy” – I’ve seen that in people. I have no idea what his religious beliefs were, but it fascinates me the way that some people are able to tap into something really, really big.

“Miracles” - - perhaps those could be interpreted as people stepping outside of their usual beliefs and definitions to accomplish things that aren’t predictable by past events (or, even, contradict past events)?

In terms of this being an amateurish presentation of an idea, yes, you’re right. It’s more of an IMHO, but I enjoyed the “Faith” thread and wanted to ask these questions of people who frequent this forum.

I been wondering about this same thing ever since I read a statement by Dawkins saying that if the word God were to have any meaning it must refer to some all powerful separate controlling entity. My own concept of spiritual life has changed so much that the traditional concept of God , and the god that is spoken of so often by the radical right is not the god I believe in. Still, Sunday morning I heard a choir expressing gratitude to God. There was a transcendent reality in their expression of hope and joy. Perhaps the term god must remain with us in a personal indistinct way, like the term love. When the word love is used by another we can’t know exactly what they mean unless we have some context about who the person is and what it means to them.

It comes down to linguistics. “God” like “love” is a word different people use to describe loosely related but different phenomena/concepts. Your “event” is an important phenomenon, whether you call it God or something else. People place too much emphasis on labels. Better just to describe things based on their qualities rather than trying to put them in word-boxes.

A valid point but not always practical. People want to come together to discover and enjoy their common ground, even if some specific details vary from individual to individual. Thats where I think the term god comes in handy.

Depends on your purpose. Are you trying to make an athropological point about the origins of religious/spiritual phenomena? Are you you trying to “rebrand” the word God? What’s the aim here… I just think in general, descriptive language is much more useful than nominative language. It’s more useful to say that you teach than that you are a teacher. It’s more useful to say that you have a crush on someone or a deep bond of marriage or a very close friendship than that you love someone.

Being is both a noun and a verb. I think that’s something that is often forgotten. God is the ultimate state of being.

There is a lot of agreement among different religious traditions about certain aspects of God.

  1. God created everything
  2. God is too vast and undefinable and can only be experienced as words which were designed to describe subsets, they cannot adequately describe the totality of the superset. IE, the map is not the territory.
  3. God is conscious and has the capacity for relationship. This is the main point that makes Spinoza a heretic. Spinoza’s God didn’t love you, but you were supposed to love it with all of your heart.
  4. Creation would be the event, god as both first cause and last effect (alpha and omega) cannot be referred to solely as an event.
  5. Ideas are of the Logos which is the layer of the ‘world’ so to speak. The world is considered to be an illusion in all major religions. This is because the world is interpreted through images, images that represent the totality of reality, but are not in and of themselves actually the totality of reality, they are little snippets of the microcosm reflecting the macrocosm.
  6. The inability to accurately define God is a limit on the facility of language, not on God himself, as ideas are human imposed limits, and humans do not have the might to impose limits upon God as God is the supreme power.
  7. God, may however be revealed to the person who seeks it.

The phonem ohm is fairly widespread if not universally associated with the generative act. There was some hindu tract I read that discussed it being a trinity of sounds in perfect harmony, something of the sort. This can be found in Egypt in the name Amun, or whenever Christians finish their prayers by saying Amen. Ohm however was a sound caused by Shiva or whatever version of the creator deity you prefer, and not Shiva himself. However, as we experience the voice of shiva our ability to maintain what we have created is transient, thus noting the intertwining of creation/desctruction in the creation/maintenance/destruction cycle. Like nutrients in the soil, all old and dead ideas become the fertilizer out of which the current evolution of the life cycle gets its sustenance. People often refer to the busom of the creator as ‘home’, which is of course the word ohm with a breath before it.

Creation was an event that is happening in the eternal present. God is a name of the initiator of that process, who is described through that process. We only know God from the word he spoke/speaks/will speak.

God is supposed to be beyond time, if we contemplate the simultaneity of all time, then the notion of an event that occurred in the past becomes sort of silly. It’s sort of like thinking the ‘big bang’ happened in the past. When exactly does an explosion stop? If the universe is still expanding and the vibrations are still reverberating through it then clearly the explosion is still happening. The universe does not have a beginning, it just has a section that is incomprehensible to man at his current level of evolution.

So God is/isn’t an event, but I think the idea of giving God a temporal locus anywhere other than NOW, is a mistake. However, that is just my opinion.

No, no, no! God is seven!

Thank you for that, mswas. Beautiful.

I’ve been sort of mulling this over and wondering if I’d blasphemed. That wasn’t my goal. My “event” was beginning to feel rather shallow and shriveled. I was hoping for expansive and welcoming.