Giving up on God

Great Debates
1

I was raised with the traditional judeo-xtian concept of God…that is that he is a wrathful creator who, at the end of the day, really loves us after all.

But that definition has become too small to fit what I think this thing we call “God” is.

I think God (god?) is the right order of the universe. He is not a personality. He doesn’t watch over us and keep us from harm. Read the headlines regarding the millions of his children dieing all the time.

But I think that God is love, and harmony, and rightness, and justice. He is the divine order of the universe. He is the goodness in the fabric of the cosmos that we all strain to grasp…atheists and theists alike.

When we “sin” we separate ourselves from God…that is we separate ourselves from the way the universe is meant to be. Most often I believe sin comes in the form of claiming some right for ourselves that requires us to deny the rights of another. When we spend $100 on a meal and pass the hungry person without a thought, we sin. When we destroy beauty for our own gain, we sin. When we kill, we sin. When we are apathetic to the needs of our brothers and sisters, we sin.

So can I still profess to be a Christian? A follower of Christ? Can I still dig on the crazy antics of Jesus?

yes.

I think Jesus grasped in a unique way the image of god in the world. He saw it in himself and he saw it in others.

But the judeo-xtian scriptures as the infallible word of God? Not hardly. I see the scriptures as the struggle of a people to understand God. Sometimes the authors are brilliantly on point, and frankly sometimes I think they missed the point. There are beautiful acts of love and heroism and poetry and adventure and forgiveness and grace thoughout both the New and Old Testaments. But there is also unspeakable bloodshed, cruelty, evil, meanness and vice. Do I think God spoke those attrocities into being and we are left to try justify the acts of an vicious and jealous deity?

No. But neither are we to deny the times the authors got it right. There are wonderful examples of ancient peoples seeking and finding god in trials and in good times.

So how do I now approach other holy texts? Well if I believe God is woven into the fabric of the universe, longing to bring the world into the “right” order, then he certainly is accessible to all peoples, correct? I can now read holy texts from around the world and view them as man’s attempt to be in right relationship with God, that is with goodness and with love.

But God as him or her? Loving us? Punishing us? Protecting us? I think I may have to give up on that concept.

2

Just a hunch, but reading some Dostoyevsky might help get you to where you’re going.

3

Any specific suggestions?

4

God is product, packaged and sold by religions to suckers.

5

I may get criticized for this - but reading about Dostoyevsky might be a better way to start. Maybe the book by Berdyaev? (which doesn’t seem to show up on Amazon)

6

You’d probably like The Brothers Karmazov.

7

Right. and I ain’t buyin’!

However I think there is a rightness in the universe worth seeking. Can i call that God? How about god?

8

Sure. That concept of god is not going to make you try to limit the freedom of others, or to make you feel guilty for doing things that seem right to you. It’s putting a name on things that do exist, and on feelings. Go for it.

9

You say you are still a Christian, but, from your descriptions of his specialness in the OP, it seems more as though you view him as merely a great teacher or philosopher than as some uniquely divine person. So, I’m curious: though you seem to have abandoned the usual concept of God as an intelligent being with superhuman powers, and apparently have no superstrong attachment anymore to the Bible, do you still believe in Jesus’s virgin birth, his resurrection three days after his death, his performing the various miracles, etc.?

[I’m not saying you have to do those things to be allowed to call yourself Christian; I’m just curious. It *does* seem odd to me to cling to the word “God” for your very abstract conception of order/goodness/love/justice/whatever in the universe, when you could just speak about “order/goodness in the universe” and toss out the distracting baggage, but that’s a whole 'nother boondoggle…]

10

ok. Posting now on my phone in a bar. Having a Sapporo befor I go to the bookstore. Please excuse poor puncuation…

I never hung my hat on the virgin birth. I feel much of Jesus HAS been packaged to fit the OT expectation)prophecy.

I do puzzle out the resurrection. if one were to acheive oneness with the universe (now I am a budhist?) would being resurrected be out of the realm? I mean I am already assuming a supernatural or at least superobservable aspect to the world. why limit that concept?

If I can come up with a word for god that better suits, and will not cause others consternation, I am open to that.

Also, I will remain active in my church, hopefully influencing them in some positive way. I will still profess to follow Christ, I am just not buying the dogma.

11

You’re sounding more like a Deist than a Christian.

12

I was thinking Deism, as well. Maybe grab a copy of Thomas Paine’s Age of Reason, and see if you dig that.

13

You sound like a Christian Agnostic. Try this site: christianagnostic.com

I really enjoy the daily calendar writings on that site.

14

OK I am home now, new Dostoyevski in tow…and I am perusing agnosticchristian.com…

15

I’ve been wondering my self how to express the spiritual journey without supporting the God, the distant being out there somewhere, concept.

I agree with this

There is a way to be in harmony with each other and the world we live in. To be in tune with what is true and feel our connection with life which is love. Like the cells in a body working together we are individuals yet existing in the same body of life. In that sense our “health” depends on the individual cells fulfilling their intended roll in the body.

But I digress.

It’s up to you but I doubt most Christians would call you a Christian. Even though I revere Christ and his teachings I decided my beliefs were too different from mainstream to call myself a Christian anymore. There was also too much being under the title that I really objected to.

Perhaps god is a decent alternative to “God” It could indicate a reverence and appreciation for the mystery of the transcendent “other” while also exhibiting a specific attempt to separate from the traditional view of a supernatural being that judges us.

16

Sure, but unless you assert that such rightness will be understood by all in the same way, all you are saying is that you have a personal definition of God. Which means that so does everyone else. Why call this “God?” Why not “perception?” Or " awareness?"

Also, saying that there is a rightness in the universe strongly implies that there is a wrongness, or at least a not-rightness, else why the search? This makes no sense. The universe just is.

17

Incidentally, you may care for some of the discussion in this thread on alternative conceptions of God as an abstract notion and not a particular personality, so to speak.

18

As is atheistic self-righteousness, only the salespeople are pretty much anyone who can pander to the baseless intellectual egotism of their marks, rather than a particular religion.

19

Yeah, and let’s not forget all those smarmy peddlers of the cult of agnosticism. :slight_smile:

20

I am not sure the “rightness” can ever be completely grasped. It is something to be sought, and this life is for that journey. Each person takes his own path to it.

I may have my own personal definition of god, but it is so pathetically limited that I can’t begin to think I have it right. i must allow that others have the same capacity to experience god, and may define that experience in another way. This also leaves the possibility that some will seek their own will and call it god. Here is a difficulty - allowing for the variety in seeking/experiencing god, yet not being naive to the possibility that the concept can be used for great evil.

The universe “is”. To say that it “just is” diminishes the fact that there is something in us all that seeks good.

The universe is playing the greatest song in the world in Aminor. We come in for our solo and we are in G#, and our guitar is not tuned very well. If we are at all concerned about getting the song right, we are going to need a tuning fork. Once we get our guitar tuned (or passably close) we then need to figure out what key the song is in. We may even figure that out, to a degree, only to find that before we can play the blazing brilliant solo this song deserves, we really need to go back and practice our scales.

The song is always playing in the background…bass thumping, drums beating an irresistable rhythm…inviting us to tune up and play…the chorus rises and falls…when it is our turn to contribute to the tune, will we be ready? Will we even be there? Will we care?