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  #1  
Old 04-24-2008, 11:20 AM
Brown Eyed Girl Brown Eyed Girl is offline
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Expired ID

Why is my expired driver license not considered valid identification? Despite the fact that my right to drive has expired, it still identifies me, so when presented as a tool for simple identification (unrelated to driving), the fact that it's expired should make no difference.

If I want to buy alcohol or cigarettes, I must present a 'valid photo ID' indicating I am over 21. A driver license is an obvious choice as it has a photo for physical identification as well as my full date of birth to verify legal age. Once it's expired though, I'm told that it cannot be accepted as a valid means of identifying that I'm legally allowed to purchase alcohol or cigarettes. Despite the fact that my picture is still there, my date of birth hasn't changed, and it still identifies me.

My social security card has no such expiration as a form of identification and is required to verify my identity to get the driver license to begin with. I can understand the reasons why a driver license should have an expiration related to licensing driving privileges. I can also understand that a person's physical appearance changes, sometimes before the DL expires and at least at some point after (long after) it does.

What I don't understand is why it is still not valid as a means of identification even one day after the expiration. Why can't the time of identification only validity be extended beyond the licensure validity?
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  #2  
Old 04-24-2008, 11:43 AM
Duckster Duckster is online now
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WAG.

At what chronological age are you legally considered an adult? At what chronological age can you legally drink alcohol? At what chronological age do you have to pay a higher price for a movie ticket?

Every question posed above has a single distinct answer, based upon a defined standard. One day you are a juvenile under the law and the next day an adult. This doesn't take into account your physical maturity or your emotional growth. (Yes, I known about exceptions but that's not the point.)

The points is where do you draw the line? Everyone thinks they are entitled to something above and beyond everyone else. Who gets to decide? Should we leave it as arbitrary and let it slide based on the moment and the interaction? What are the consequences? If the interaction involves the sale of alcohol, underage and a later accident, who is at fault here? Was the sale transacted because one was cute or was their potential intimidation involved?

Your license was valid yesterday. But it expired last night. Today you cannot use it to legally prove who you are. Yeah, it makes no sense. But that's the way it works. Any other comments would get me into trouble because this isn't the pit.
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  #3  
Old 04-24-2008, 11:50 AM
Brown Eyed Girl Brown Eyed Girl is offline
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Well, as irritated as I've been about it, I'm not dumb enough to pit it. I know very well the solution is to renew the license or present some other form of 'acceptable' identification.

That's not the point of this thread, obviously. But you hit the nail on the head with your reference to the arbitrary manner in which we treat chronological age vs. privilege to do certain things. In any case, I'm damn near 40 years old. The fact that I even have to present an ID to buy alcohol or cigarettes is irritating enough. But then to have my age-confirming identification rejected based on the fact that I'm not legally allowed to drive is...well...especially irritating.

Last edited by Brown Eyed Girl; 04-24-2008 at 11:52 AM..
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  #4  
Old 04-24-2008, 11:50 AM
Ferret Herder Ferret Herder is offline
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Different WAG:

Because it would be a "real" ID able to be used by someone younger than you to gain access to more "adult" services, if you were able to get a new DL and hand off your expired one. Your (fictional for purposes of an example) younger sister would be able to run around with her very own ID, impersonating you, without the bother of having to borrow it from you and the hassle over who gets to go out drinking tonight.

Alternately, maybe it could be used by someone to take on a new identity (to evade the law or for whatever reason) and again, has the advantage of being "real".

Last edited by Ferret Herder; 04-24-2008 at 11:52 AM..
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  #5  
Old 04-24-2008, 11:53 AM
BwanaBob BwanaBob is offline
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Not a factual answer, but some places just like to draw a line in the sand so that they don't get sued if it turns out your "expired" ID is a fake. I think the liability is different if you present what appears to be "active" ID and it turns out to be fake.

Sometimes its just irrationality on the part of the bouncer. I had a college roommate who was older than me (slightly) and very slender of frame (he looked really young). We're both born in 1959. We were trying to get in a bar but the bouncer wouldn't let him in.
He challenges the bouncer as to the reason. Bouncer claims the license looks tampered with, that the year 1957 was changed to 1959 by closing the loop on the 7. I'm standing there and I say to the bouncer "So you're saying he fudged the license to make himself 2 years younger. What sense does that make?"
Bouncer vapor locks, then says, "Neither of you can come in". This little bit of lunacy happened 30 years ago and it still bothers me.

It's best to just have ID that is current. It's not worth arguing with pinheads.
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  #6  
Old 04-24-2008, 11:54 AM
Brown Eyed Girl Brown Eyed Girl is offline
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Good point, Ferret Herder.
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  #7  
Old 04-24-2008, 11:57 AM
Really Not All That Bright Really Not All That Bright is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferret Herder
Because it would be a "real" ID able to be used by someone younger than you to gain access to more "adult" services, if you were able to get a new DL and hand off your expired one. Your (fictional for purposes of an example) younger sister would be able to run around with her very own ID, impersonating you, without the bother of having to borrow it from you and the hassle over who gets to go out drinking tonight.
It's a good theory, but if you were going to hand it off you could just do so before it expired and say yours was lost or stolen.

Last edited by Really Not All That Bright; 04-24-2008 at 11:57 AM..
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  #8  
Old 04-24-2008, 12:17 PM
Ferret Herder Ferret Herder is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Really Not All That Bright
It's a good theory, but if you were going to hand it off you could just do so before it expired and say yours was lost or stolen.
... Damn. I was going to say something about "well maybe lost/stolen old IDs get flagged in databases as being invalid for that reason and expired just do because they're expired" but very few places actually scan the strip on the ID.

OK, I have no idea then.
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  #9  
Old 04-24-2008, 01:13 PM
Jayrot Jayrot is offline
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I imagine it relies heavily on the slippery slope argument.

What if a license has been expired for 25 years? It's probably not even the same style as the current ones and barely recognizable as an official identification. ("It's an older code, but it checks out" /SW) You might say that 25 years expired is too much, but there should be a grace period of, say, 5 years. But then, really, isn't the real expiration date really just 5 years later? Why not just make that the official expiration date?

Last edited by Jayrot; 04-24-2008 at 01:14 PM..
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  #10  
Old 04-24-2008, 01:15 PM
Really Not All That Bright Really Not All That Bright is offline
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I suspect, along those lines, that it has a lot to do with the primary goal of American business - not causing offense.

If a 50-year-old woman tries to buy a six-pack and hands you her drivers' license from the year she was Miss Idaho, do you really want to be the one telling her she doesn't look like that anymore?
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  #11  
Old 04-24-2008, 01:41 PM
Barrett Bonden Barrett Bonden is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferret Herder
Because it would be a "real" ID able to be used by someone younger than you to gain access to more "adult" services, if you were able to get a new DL and hand off your expired one. Your (fictional for purposes of an example) younger sister would be able to run around with her very own ID, impersonating you, without the bother of having to borrow it from you and the hassle over who gets to go out drinking tonight.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Really Not All That Bright
It's a good theory, but if you were going to hand it off you could just do so before it expired and say yours was lost or stolen.
Ferret Herder, your explanation is the one given to us in a server's training session that I recently attended.

Really Not All That Bright, it's true that someone could thwart the system as you describe, but only for the life of the ID. An older sibling might be willing to hand over an expired ID, but it's a lot more trouble (and potential consequences) to pretend to have lost your sole valid ID, especially when the owner of the ID doesn't stand to benefit.

Last edited by Barrett Bonden; 04-24-2008 at 01:42 PM..
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  #12  
Old 04-24-2008, 02:01 PM
Otto Otto is offline
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You are all overlooking the obvious answer.

Every time you get a new state-issued ID, it costs you money and generates revenue for the state. If an expired ID were a valid form of identification, a certain segment of the population would have no incentive to spend the money to get a new one and the state would lose out on that revenue. It's the same reason why license plate tags expire every year.
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  #13  
Old 04-24-2008, 02:04 PM
Harmonious Discord Harmonious Discord is offline
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Consider that you're legally bound to keep a driver's license up to date with your new address, and an expired one doesn't require by law any current information. The address is often what they want to verify.

Last edited by Harmonious Discord; 04-24-2008 at 02:04 PM..
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  #14  
Old 04-24-2008, 02:07 PM
Really Not All That Bright Really Not All That Bright is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barrett Bonden
Really Not All That Bright, it's true that someone could thwart the system as you describe, but only for the life of the ID. An older sibling might be willing to hand over an expired ID, but it's a lot more trouble (and potential consequences) to pretend to have lost your sole valid ID, especially when the owner of the ID doesn't stand to benefit.
What potential consequences? If your brother/sister gets caught with it, they was stolen. I know plenty of kids who gave theirs to siblings.

As for standing to benefit, getting your sister to give you fifty bucks/do your chores/whatever is usually benefit enough.
Quote:
If an expired ID were a valid form of identification, a certain segment of the population would have no incentive to spend the money to get a new one and the state would lose out on that revenue.
That's an obvious reason why drivers' licenses expire. It doesn't explain why they can't be used to identify the bearer after expiration.
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  #15  
Old 04-24-2008, 02:28 PM
Barrett Bonden Barrett Bonden is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Really Not All That Bright
I know plenty of kids who gave theirs to siblings.
You know plenty of kids who gave their valid license to their siblings? Or who gave an expired license to their siblings?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Really Not All That Bright
That's an obvious reason why drivers' licenses expire. It doesn't explain why they can't be used to identify the bearer after expiration.
I told you the party line we were given. For what it's worth, I understand the reasoning. Most licensed drivers have at least one expired license; that's a huge pool of potential fake IDs. Removing them from use makes vendors' lives a lot easier. It doesn't make things easier for people who don't drive. I'm not shocked that vendors care more about their own convenience than someone else's.
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  #16  
Old 04-24-2008, 02:30 PM
Otto Otto is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Really Not All That Bright
That's an obvious reason why drivers' licenses expire. It doesn't explain why they can't be used to identify the bearer after expiration.
I've had periods since I had my license where I didn't drive, but I kept the license. Why? Because I needed a valid ID and the state mandated that my expired ID was not valid. I could have gotten a state ID but those cost money and expire too.

Last edited by Otto; 04-24-2008 at 02:31 PM..
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  #17  
Old 04-24-2008, 05:52 PM
DSYoungEsq DSYoungEsq is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto
You are all overlooking the obvious answer.

Every time you get a new state-issued ID, it costs you money and generates revenue for the state. If an expired ID were a valid form of identification, a certain segment of the population would have no incentive to spend the money to get a new one and the state would lose out on that revenue. It's the same reason why license plate tags expire every year.
Which says nothing about why businesses insist upon a "valid" driver's license to confirm identity for a variety of things, since those have nothing to do with state laws.
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  #18  
Old 04-24-2008, 06:02 PM
Guinastasia Guinastasia is offline
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Is it because you no longer drive? Most states offer an ID card you can get at the DMV, if you don't have a driver's license. That's what I have.
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  #19  
Old 04-24-2008, 06:48 PM
accidentalyuppie accidentalyuppie is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brown Eyed Girl
Why is my expired driver license not considered valid identification?
What I don't understand is why it is still not valid as a means of identification even one day after the expiration. Why can't the time of identification only validity be extended beyond the licensure validity?
Because people aren't as careful as they should be with expired licenses, and often keep them in the back of a sock drawer of the pocket of an old purse and don't even remember that they're there. If your valid license goes missing you usually notice it right away.

And there would be somewhat of a market for expired licenses, to be used or illicit purposes. Many people could be tempted to sell or give away their expired license, while hardly anyone would sell their valid license.

So the issue is not that your expired license fails to prove who you are. It's just that by not accepting them as valid ID our government is throwing up a roadblock to teen alcohol abuse and making sure the terrorists don't win.
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  #20  
Old 04-24-2008, 07:11 PM
Really Not All That Bright Really Not All That Bright is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barrett Bonden
You know plenty of kids who gave their valid license to their siblings? Or who gave an expired license to their siblings?
Yes. That's how high school kids get beer, for the most part. Well, the ones I went to school with, anyway.
Quote:
I told you the party line we were given. For what it's worth, I understand the reasoning. Most licensed drivers have at least one expired license; that's a huge pool of potential fake IDs. Removing them from use makes vendors' lives a lot easier. It doesn't make things easier for people who don't drive. I'm not shocked that vendors care more about their own convenience than someone else's.
I'm not saying it isn't sound reasoning. I just don't think it's the actual reasoning. Most states require that you turn in your old license when you get a new one, anyway. In Florida and Connecticut (among others) if you renew your license after expires you must return the old one, or you have to retake the test.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DSYoungEsq
Which says nothing about why businesses insist upon a "valid" driver's license to confirm identity for a variety of things, since those have nothing to do with state laws.
Otto - what he said.
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  #21  
Old 04-24-2008, 07:11 PM
sweeteviljesus sweeteviljesus is offline
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I used to be a doorman and I routinely accepted expired IDs. I would often demand a credit card as supplemental ID. In Texas, only a valid driver's license or ID is valid for identification purposes. Since this was in a college town, refusing to accept out-of-state driver's licenses or passports would cost you half your business. Basically, I could accept anything I wanted to for proof of age, but my actions would only be defensible in court if I was presented with the approved IDs. As to why I sometimes refused to accept an expired ID, it was either because I heard the TABC was on the prowl (screw with them at your peril) or because I didn't want to let them in for another reason (usually because they were already drunk). Pointing out that the ID was expired led to fewer conflicts.

FWIW,
Rob
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  #22  
Old 04-24-2008, 07:47 PM
Brown Eyed Girl Brown Eyed Girl is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guinastasia
Is it because you no longer drive? Most states offer an ID card you can get at the DMV, if you don't have a driver's license. That's what I have.
Honestly, it's because I have some issues with child support (for my son) that resulted in a suspended license. I can't drive with it, but it worked perfectly fine for ID until it expired. I'm hoping the support issue gets sorted out this month so I can renew it before I move. In the meantime, I'll probably just go get a state ID. It's funny, even the county won't accept it as verification of my identity despite the fact that I've presented every other acceptable form of ID (i.e., birth cert, marriage cert, SS card, proof of residence, etc.) right in front of their stupid faces and they have copies of all on file. It's been a mess that I've, unfortunately, neglected cleaning up for too long.

I have a handful of old DLs from various states I've collected since I've started driving. I can't recall ever being asked for it back when I renewed, so I can understand the restrictions in place from the fraud point-of-view. It's just weird (and annoying) that one day this card confirms who I am, where I live and how old I am and the next day, it doesn't confirm squat.
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  #23  
Old 04-24-2008, 09:59 PM
Fubaya Fubaya is offline
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Just think about the law and come up with a way to word it so an expired license could be used to purchase alcohol/tobacco/pornography/6-gallons-of-cough-syrup/etc. You really can't.

The law requires a valid ID for purchase of alcohol. The lawmakers could take the word "valid" out of the law. But if the ID isn't required to be valid, can I print something off my computer and use that?
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  #24  
Old 04-24-2008, 10:50 PM
panache45 panache45 is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto
You are all overlooking the obvious answer.

Every time you get a new state-issued ID, it costs you money and generates revenue for the state. If an expired ID were a valid form of identification, a certain segment of the population would have no incentive to spend the money to get a new one and the state would lose out on that revenue. It's the same reason why license plate tags expire every year.
I have often wondered about this exact question. When my license expires, I'm still the same person with the same identity. The only thing that has changed is my legal right to drive.

This explanation is the only one that makes sense. Too many people would just continue driving with their expired license, figuring what are the odds of getting pulled over for any reason . . . and they'll deal with the consequences if they occur. But to be unable to support their habits . . . that's serious.

A big purpose of any governmental agency is to continue raising revenue to support its own existence and keep their jobs. They need to give you an incentive to pay your fees in a timely manner. So they make it harder for you to support your habits till you pay up. But then again there are guys like me who neither smoke nor drink; besides, at 62, they're more likely to want my ID for a senior discount.

But I'm wondering about some of the comments here: when you get a new license, don't they keep the old one? Are there states in which they don't? Isn't that just asking for abuse? Of course, there are the "lost" ones, real or otherwise.
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  #25  
Old 04-24-2008, 11:07 PM
Really Not All That Bright Really Not All That Bright is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fubaya
The law requires a valid ID for purchase of alcohol. The lawmakers could take the word "valid" out of the law. But if the ID isn't required to be valid, can I print something off my computer and use that?
No, that's the whole point. AFAIK, state laws usually don't require that you present a valid ID - they require that you present something to the cashier that establishes your identity and age.

You could just as easily show them a passport or something.

In Florida, you can legally purchase a valid ID from any schmuck on the street; said schmuck is required to obtain a certified copy of a proof of age document from you, and a signed affidavit, and that's about it.

Quote:
877.18 Identification card or document purporting to contain applicant's age or date of birth; penalties for failure to comply with requirements for sale or issuance.--

(1) It is unlawful for any person, except a governmental agency or instrumentality, to sell or issue, or to offer to sell or issue, in this state any identification card or document purporting to contain the age or date of birth of the person in whose name it was issued, unless:

(a) Prior to selling or issuing such card or document, the person has first obtained from the applicant and retains for a period of 3 years from the date of sale:

1. An authenticated or certified copy of proof of age as provided in s. 1003.21(4); and

2. A notarized affidavit from the applicant attesting to the applicant's age and that the proof-of-age document required by subparagraph 1. is for such applicant.

(b) Prior to offering to sell such cards in this state, the person has included in any offer for sale of identification cards or documents that such cards cannot be sold or issued without the applicants' first submitting the documents required by paragraph (a).

(c) The identification card or document contains the business name and street address of the person selling or issuing such card or document.

(2) For the purposes of this section, the term "offer to sell" includes every inducement, solicitation, attempt, or printed or media advertisement to encourage a person to purchase an identification card.

(3) All records required to be maintained by this section shall be available for inspection without warrant upon reasonable demand by any law enforcement officer, including, but not limited to, a state attorney investigator or an investigator for the Division of Alcoholic Beverages and Tobacco.

(4) A person who violates the provisions of this section is guilty of a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084. The failure to produce the documents required by subsection (1), upon lawful request therefor, is prima facie evidence of a violation of this section.

(5) The state attorney for any county in which a violation of this section occurs or the Attorney General may enjoin any sale or offer for sale in violation of this section by temporary and permanent injunction by application to any court of competent jurisdiction.
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  #26  
Old 04-25-2008, 08:34 AM
SmackFu SmackFu is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Really Not All That Bright
It's a good theory, but if you were going to hand it off you could just do so before it expired and say yours was lost or stolen.
I think the difference is that involves effort and money for the valid license holder to replace it, while giving away your expired license does not.
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  #27  
Old 04-25-2008, 12:49 PM
iamthewalrus(:3= iamthewalrus(:3= is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fubaya
Just think about the law and come up with a way to word it so an expired license could be used to purchase alcohol/tobacco/pornography/6-gallons-of-cough-syrup/etc. You really can't.
How about this: "A state issued drivers license or ID card is valid as identification in perpetuity. The printed expiration date on a state issued drivers license affects only the license to drive, and not the card's validity as legal identification."

I agree with the OP. There's no particular reason that an ID card can't be valid indefinitely. One's identity isn't something that changes.

Now, you can say that people would be using licenses with pictures that don't identify them any more, but it won't really happen that often, since most people will regularly update their licenses in order to drive, and it's not limited to expired licenses. I got my driver's license photo taken when I was 17, with hair down to my shoulders. I didn't get another one taken for 8 years, and I looked very different. But my id was still valid.
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Old 04-25-2008, 04:43 PM
Apocalypso Apocalypso is offline
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A bartender once refused to serve a GF because of an invalid ID (she was 28 and clearly didn't look underage).

My $.02 is that a persons appearance can change to the point where the original photo can no longer be used to accurately identify them. How different did you look 10 years ago? PA Identification cards are valid for 4 years, which seems like a reasonable cutoff point.
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  #29  
Old 04-25-2008, 05:18 PM
gotpasswords gotpasswords is offline
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Interestingly, my California drivers license has this on the back:

This License is issued as a license to drive a motor vehicle; it does not establish eligibility for employment, voter registration, or public benefits.

Doesn't say anything about being used for personal identification. I don't have the time to dig further, but I'd imagine there's a specific law or two in the civil code that defines a drivers license as personal identification as well as a license to drive.
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  #30  
Old 04-25-2008, 05:51 PM
amarinth amarinth is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by panache45
But I'm wondering about some of the comments here: when you get a new license, don't they keep the old one? Are there states in which they don't?
In Washington State, they punch a hole through the old one and give it back to you. I think I've still got every license I've ever had. When I'm doing something where I don't need a valid license to drive, but might need to be identified (e.g., jogging around the neighborhood) I'll carry one of the expired licenses.
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  #31  
Old 04-25-2008, 06:14 PM
Musicat Musicat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iamthewalrus(:3=
How about this: "A state issued drivers license or ID card is valid as identification in perpetuity. The printed expiration date on a state issued drivers license affects only the license to drive, and not the card's validity as legal identification."
Naaah...too logical.

The day after my license expires, it is just as good as it was the day before if all you need is age verification. Expiration has nothing to do with that unless you can reverse time. The problem lies in the wording "valid". The criterion for validity for ID shouldn't be the same as driving.

The idea that requiring an UNexpired DL for age verification prevents a black market in expired docs is an after-the-fact rationalization. Use of an ID that is not yours is asking for trouble to begin with, expired or not.
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  #32  
Old 04-25-2008, 06:40 PM
iamthewalrus(:3= iamthewalrus(:3= is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Apocalypso
My $.02 is that a persons appearance can change to the point where the original photo can no longer be used to accurately identify them. How different did you look 10 years ago? PA Identification cards are valid for 4 years, which seems like a reasonable cutoff point.
I don't know about PA, but in CA, even though we get new licenses every few years, we don't get a new photo taken nearly as often. I had a new photo taken 8 years after my first one (and then again a few months later, since I got a motorcycle license. I got into a nice little quasi-licensed state, for a week or so, too. When they issued me the paper license, they punched a hole in my old license. They punched it right through the year in the expiration date. Luckily, the bouncer at my local bar recognized me, but I did have to speak to a manager at the grocery store when I tried to buy beer). The two intervening license replacements were just issued with the same old photo.

Plus, the issue of a photo not looking like the person is orthogonal to the issue of an expired license. Regardless of whether the license is expired, if you can't identify the bearer as the person in the photo, then it's not valid identification. Similarly, if you can identify the bearer, and it looks like a legitimate state-issued license, then it shouldn't matter if it's expired.

The black market argument is sort of a non-starter, too. You can get a replacement license for $12 in CA (claim the original was lost or stolen). I can't imagine that that would be a serious economic obstacle for the illicit false id market.
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  #33  
Old 04-25-2008, 06:55 PM
Brown Eyed Girl Brown Eyed Girl is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iamthewalrus(:3=
Plus, the issue of a photo not looking like the person is orthogonal to the issue of an expired license. Regardless of whether the license is expired, if you can't identify the bearer as the person in the photo, then it's not valid identification. Similarly, if you can identify the bearer, and it looks like a legitimate state-issued license, then it shouldn't matter if it's expired.
That's all I'm saying.
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  #34  
Old 04-25-2008, 07:01 PM
guizot guizot is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brown Eyed Girl
Why is my expired driver license not considered valid identification?
No one in this thread has had the heart to break it to you, Brown Eyes, so I guess it's up to me.

When your driver's license expired, you expired. You are no longer valid. You mean nothing. You are void and null. You don't count. Zero. Nada. Zilch. 무, 微不足道的事(或人), 何もない, nichts
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  #35  
Old 04-25-2008, 07:09 PM
Balthisar Balthisar is offline
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Doesn't Arizona still give out licenses for life, or at least long enough that all of the points above are invalidated?
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  #36  
Old 04-25-2008, 07:30 PM
Brown Eyed Girl Brown Eyed Girl is offline
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Originally Posted by guizot
When your driver's license expired, you expired. You are no longer valid. You mean nothing. You are void and null. You don't count. Zero. Nada. Zilch. 무, 微不足道的事(或人), 何もない, nichts
Heh.

I can't count the number of days I've actually felt like that. A little humor goes a long way.
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  #37  
Old 04-25-2008, 07:54 PM
Patty O'Furniture Patty O'Furniture is offline
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It's possible you could have changed your name or gone to Jenny Craig or gotten a new set of eyes or something. Also, having ID's checked periodically at bars and restaurants and such is a good way of getting the fake ones out of circulation.

Furthermore, as license technology improves (holograms, barcodes and such), people must be forced to renew in order to get the upgraded version. You didn't think Bill Gates was the first to come up with that idea did you?

There probably exists somewhere a study showing that the chances of an ID being fake or in the hands of the wrong person increases in direct proportion to the age of the ID card itself. So forcing people to renew every five years is just another layer in the birthday cake of national security.
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  #38  
Old 09-24-2015, 03:08 PM
jmore818 jmore818 is offline
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valid id

There is nothing more irritating than a worker not accepting an expired license as a form of identification. I just went through with today with the Los Angeles Social Services Department. I told them I was not driving, just identifying myself, and if I was to produce a false ID I certainly wouldn't show them an expired one. The only reason I could even be where I was is because I already showed them valid id and my social, and they sent me a letter inviting me to the class. I wonder what is the worst thing that ever happened when someone used an expired license as identification. The cops will accept it as ID. If it is somewhere that you must do business with and will be returning, I usually point out really loudly to the person who first did not accept the ID that I now have a current one and it is still me, and ask them if they need me to drive somewhere for them. A Social Security Card, or mine anyway, can be easily duplicated, has no picture on it, and it states not to be used as ID. The upside of all of this is that you can weed out the anal retentive people who are senseless, who have no happy life and enjoy rejecting people, are not that bright, and are so busy obsessing about little details that circles can be run around them. I also hate it when they say, "what happened to your license?" I want to say "none of your f-ing business", or "can you ask me something that is relative to the situation, what does it matter?". I try to refrain, because usually, these people are employed in a low paying position which gives them just a little bit of authority, which is the only authority they have, and they transfer it into the power to control a situation and they take that power to control too seriously. When they leave their little job, they go out into the real world and their little lives and are not the boss of anyone in real life. I know the business they work for makes the rules and they must enforce the rules, but, personally, I use common sense and bypass some of the rules and sometimes put my job in jeopardy, but, I can always get another job, some people don't have the luxury of being in my situation. I think companies make the rule of current valid I.D. because if a person were to be some type of criminal, they wouldn't be able to get current I.D., even though they say it is just for identification purposes. If I can show a cop my expired ID and they believe it is me, a business should do the same.
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  #39  
Old 09-24-2015, 05:12 PM
md2000 md2000 is offline
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My wife worked in liquor sales for a while, and the official reason was simple - as mentioned, an expired ID is not valid, especially for driving; and so not necessarily an important document for the original owner to keep. It could be borrowed or taken. The real owner has a valid one, the expired one can easily be passed on, the owner will not miss it.

The expiry also makes sense. The owner has not had to present themselves and verify their identity and appearance for a while. Things may have changed.

The "1 day later" argument makes sense, but then how much grace is too much? A month? A year? 5 years? 10? Simplest, easiest rule is - "valid" is while it is valid.

If you can't get a renewed driver's license, they you fall into the category of people who do not have driver's licenses. Society is stupid, in that what should only be "permit to drive" has turned into a general ID document more pervasive than the old Communist/Nazi "Papers, please". My French teacher (from France) complained that when writing cheques at stores, his typewriter-completed local drivers license meant more to shop owners than his official-looking printed French passport.

As far as rules being stupid. My 92-year-old stepmother was carded at the airport in Idaho because rules said, if someone (my dad) orders an alcoholic drink, and the person with them does not, you must verify that person's age. No visual exceptions.

Meanwhile, back around 1972, my 18-year-old brother, 5'7" and childish-looking, would lend his (typewritten) drivers license to his 15-year-old exomorph friend (6'3" thin and looked 20's) to buy him alcohol because it was easier than arguing with the clerks.
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  #40  
Old 09-24-2015, 05:15 PM
zev_steinhardt zev_steinhardt is offline
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As long as we're reviving this zombie, I might as well link to my thread of the same question that I asked back in 2004.

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...d.php?t=286922

Zev Steinhardt
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  #41  
Old 09-24-2015, 07:05 PM
doreen doreen is offline
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Originally Posted by Barrett Bonden View Post
Really Not All That Bright, it's true that someone could thwart the system as you describe, but only for the life of the ID. An older sibling might be willing to hand over an expired ID, but it's a lot more trouble (and potential consequences) to pretend to have lost your sole valid ID, especially when the owner of the ID doesn't stand to benefit.
What trouble? I go to the DMV website, order a duplicate, and tell my sister to give me the 17.50 fee.


BTW, I know someone who has more than once gotten on a plane using an expired non-drivers ID - and the TSA agents told him to renew when he got home, so it's not that they didn't notice. And oddly, as long as the license is expired for less than 2 years, the DMV will accept it as enough proof for renewing that expired license, no other proof needed. (after 2 years you have to start over, with written and road tests etc) tests Which is why this is bizzare- the bar won't accept my license that expired 2 months ago to sell me a drink, but DMV will issue me a new license without requiring any ID other than the expired one.
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  #42  
Old 09-24-2015, 07:15 PM
purplehearingaid purplehearingaid is offline
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Originally Posted by Brown Eyed Girl View Post
Why is my expired driver license not considered valid identification? Despite the fact that my right to drive has expired, it still identifies me, so when presented as a tool for simple identification (unrelated to driving), the fact that it's expired should make no difference.

If I want to buy alcohol or cigarettes, I must present a 'valid photo ID' indicating I am over 21. A driver license is an obvious choice as it has a photo for physical identification as well as my full date of birth to verify legal age. Once it's expired though, I'm told that it cannot be accepted as a valid means of identifying that I'm legally allowed to purchase alcohol or cigarettes. Despite the fact that my picture is still there, my date of birth hasn't changed, and it still identifies me.

My social security card has no such expiration as a form of identification and is required to verify my identity to get the driver license to begin with. I can understand the reasons why a driver license should have an expiration related to licensing driving privileges. I can also understand that a person's physical appearance changes, sometimes before the DL expires and at least at some point after (long after) it does.

What I don't understand is why it is still not valid as a means of identification even one day after the expiration. Why can't the time of identification only validity be extended beyond the licensure validity?
I had state ID card when I first moved to Ca. and the card had expired . I went
to use it at a store and the woman wouldn't get it she said it has expired .
I told her but I am still me , I didn't expired ! She didn't like my answer. It's a way for the city and state to make $$$ . I agree the card still has the correct info
on it so what the big deal about is being expired . I also asked for a mirror to see if I was still me . LOL!

Last edited by purplehearingaid; 09-24-2015 at 07:16 PM..
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  #43  
Old 09-24-2015, 09:29 PM
t-bonham@scc.net t-bonham@scc.net is offline
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Originally Posted by Otto View Post
You are all overlooking the obvious answer.

Every time you get a new state-issued ID, it costs you money and generates revenue for the state. If an expired ID were a valid form of identification, a certain segment of the population would have no incentive to spend the money to get a new one and the state would lose out on that revenue. It's the same reason why license plate tags expire every year.
No, the license plate one is because of the 3M company, not the government. 3M sells the reflective coating that is used on license plate numbers, so they want to require them to be replaced on a regular basis. The government doesn't care that much -- paying the government employees to hand out new ones is probably a net money-loser for the government.

i remember a big fight about this in the Legislature here in Minnesota some years ago.
Previously license plates were forever, as long as they were "legible". So you only had to replace them if they were damaged in accidents, or were so old the printing wore out. Occasionally, police would stop someone for an unreadable license plate, and give them a 10-day fix-it warning ticket.

Then a bill was introduced, requiring that the plates be replaced every year. Turned out that bill was inspired by a lot of campaign contributions from 3M company executives. Who wanted to sell more of their reflective coating for license plates. It was claimed this was a public safety issue, but the police & state patrol officials said they had no problems with the current law -- it worked fine for them. Some elected sheriffs testified that it was a problem -- they turned out to have received some campaign contributions of their own.

But 3M has a whole lot of employees & retirees in Minnesota, who are voters. So the Legislature ended up passing a bill requiring people to buy new license plates every 3 years. So now we have to replace perfectly good plates every 3 years. And corporate profits for 3M have gone up. Democracy in action.
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  #44  
Old 09-24-2015, 10:31 PM
Claverhouse Claverhouse is offline
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Seems odd America has a de facto official ID Card in the driving licence.



Just like the internal passports of the old USSR.
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  #45  
Old 09-24-2015, 10:46 PM
SpyOne SpyOne is offline
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I work as a sales clerk in a convenience store, and as I often tell my customers, "I agree the law is stupid. Please write your Congressman."

For cigarettes, Federal Law requires that the clerk see a photo ID if the customer is 27 or younger. (Many clerks will break this law for a regular customer, but the law says the need to see it every single time.) It also defines what counts as a valid ID under the law, which includes that it must have been issued by a state government or the Federal Government, and that it must have an expiration date. And of course, on the expiration date it stops being "valid" for any purpose.

Alcohol is handled state-by-state, but in the interests of a uniform system most stores will use the cigarette rules for everything (unless alcohol has stricter rules, in which case they use those). And they set the minimum age for "we ID anyone who looks younger than ___" high enough that they won't miss a 27-year-old narc who happens to look older than he is.
Yes, the government really does send 27-year-olds around to check if stores are complying with the law.


I do think there needs to be some uniformity in ID laws. I have a student ID I got 28 years ago that, because it doesn't have an expiration date, is totally valid as a photo ID to prove my identity, and my birth certificate proves my right to work in the US. Those 2 things together satisfy the IRS when I'm being hired for a job, but neither one is of any use if I am buying tobacco.
When shopping online, the Federal standard is that paying with a credit card is proof I'm over 18, but again that isn't true if I am buying in person.

I have several customers each year who have one of the following problems with ID:
They have an expired license and a letter from the DMV saying their new ID is in the mail: totally valid to drive, not to buy cigarettes.
They have a letter saying a police officer confiscated their license. The DMV won't issue both an ID card and a license, so there is no way to have a valid ID between when the cop takes it and when the DMV opens.
They have a piece of paper with a printout on it that includes their photo. This is the "ID" they give you when releasing you from prison. Good luck using that for anything at all.
They have a foreign passport. I have never seen a US Government issued photo ID for a non-resident alien (read: tourist), so I assume they don't exist. Which means such people cannot buy tobacco products, because the only photo ID they carry was not issued by the US or any of the states. The folks with foreign passports I see are college age and in town for the summer, and get around on bicycles (so no driver's license).

But I guess all the smokers in Congress have a valid ID, so they don't see the problem.
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  #46  
Old 09-24-2015, 11:03 PM
SpyOne SpyOne is offline
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Originally Posted by panache45 View Post
But I'm wondering about some of the comments here: when you get a new license, don't they keep the old one? Are there states in which they don't? Isn't that just asking for abuse? Of course, there are the "lost" ones, real or otherwise.
When I moved to Virginia (20+ years ago), I had to present 2 forms of ID when applying for a Virginia License. I used my student ID and my Connecticut license. The clerk attacked these to the paperwork with a paperclip.

When she was handing me my new license, she was distracted, having a conversation with a co-worker, and forgot to return my student ID. So I asked, "Could I get my student ID back?', and she handed it to me. I thought for about half a second and decided to roll the dice: "And my Connecticut License?" She just handed it to me.
I wound up giving it to my roommate so he could get into bars (I was 22, he was 20.)

When I needed to renew my license, they collected my old one.
But about a decade ago, Virginia changed a lot of laws about licenses. Now the DMV just gives you a letter saying you'll get your license in the mail. Because of this, they let you keep your old license so you have an ID until the new one arrives. (IIRC the letter says that your old license is only valid until the new one arrives, to prevent folks who renew early from briefly having 2 valid IDs.)
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  #47  
Old 09-24-2015, 11:18 PM
SpyOne SpyOne is offline
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Originally Posted by jmore818 View Post
If it is somewhere that you must do business with and will be returning, I usually point out really loudly to the person who first did not accept the ID that I now have a current one and it is still me, and ask them if they need me to drive somewhere for them.
I want to thank you for being a real jerk about my complying with the law.

See my above comment about writing your Congressman: if you have a problem with what the law (or even store policy) considers a valid ID, the clerk is not the place to address your concerns. He has no power to change laws or policy, but can lose his job if he doesn't comply with them.

I have been known to bend the rules for someone when I feel I can, but anyone who acts like I am so beneath them that they;d say something like "When they leave their little job, they go out into the real world and their little lives and are not the boss of anyone in real life.", well that person is getting no favors from me.
Especially if they can't handle simple things like having a valid ID.

(I had no ID for several years: my license was suspended and I had trouble getting to the DMV. And I knew that meant I couldn't produce a valid ID, and I knew that was my fault, and I would never blame a clerk for refusing to sell to me.)
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  #48  
Old 09-24-2015, 11:22 PM
griffin1977 griffin1977 is offline
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What, an obviously grown adult, wanting to buy booze without your correctly filled out, valid, ausweis! Clearly you are some kind of subversive troublemaker. Best move along there citizen before the Ordnungspolizei are called!

Last edited by griffin1977; 09-24-2015 at 11:23 PM..
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  #49  
Old 09-24-2015, 11:48 PM
amarinth amarinth is offline
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Originally Posted by SpyOne View Post
They have a foreign passport. I have never seen a US Government issued photo ID for a non-resident alien (read: tourist), so I assume they don't exist. Which means such people cannot buy tobacco products, because the only photo ID they carry was not issued by the US or any of the states. The folks with foreign passports I see are college age and in town for the summer, and get around on bicycles (so no driver's license).
This does not sound correct - and from a couple of quick checks online (NY,IL, MA), it looks like a valid passport from any country would be sufficient.
Do you have a cite that only US passports are valid for tobacco purchases?
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  #50  
Old 09-25-2015, 12:13 AM
Dr. Strangelove Dr. Strangelove is offline
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Originally Posted by panache45 View Post
The only thing that has changed is my legal right to drive.
Not really true. Another thing that's changed is the accessibility of technology used to create fake IDs.

States use license expiration to issue new cards with enhanced security measures--UV ink, holograms, etc. The shitty laminated deals from decades ago are trivially faked; the ones today less so.

It's an arms race, and the state can only keep ahead if old licenses become invalid over time.
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