I'm still me, aren't I?

Factual Questions
1

My driver’s license expired within the last month. Of course, I went down to the DMV to get a new one and it recently arrived in the mail.

However, while I was waiting, I was, for a few days, without a driver’s license. Since I take the train every day, it wasn’t so big of a deal.

However, one day, I wanted to visit a friend in a building here in Manhattan. Like most office buildings, there is a rudimentary security where you must show some identification to enter the building. So, when asked, I pulled out my now-expired driver’s license.

“I’m sorry, sir,” the security guard said, “this license is expired. I’ll need some other form of ID.”

“What?” was my incredulous reply.

“Your license is expired. I can’t accept it. I have to see a current license.”

“Why?”

“Building policy,” came the reply.

“Let me ask you a question,” I said. “If I showed up here two weeks ago [before the license expired] you would have let me through, correct?”

“Yes.”

“Well, have I stopped being who I am in the last two weeks simply because someone printed an expiration date on a document? I’m still me, aren’t I?”

In the end, my arguments fell on deaf ears. Now, I understand that New York State puts expiration dates on driver’s licenses so that they can get another $50 or so every X number of years. I understand that and can deal with it. But this is just plain silly.

For those of you knowledgeable about security (or anyone else) , I ask the following question:

Is there any legitimate security reason why a recently expired (within the last month) is unacceptable in the situation I described above? Was there some real, legitimate reason for excluding me from the building?

Zev Steinhardt

2

Because of the assumed importance of having a valid driver’s license in our society, anyone who doesn’t has some level of suspicion. It’s not a good indicator, but it does have some value.

At what point do you want to draw the line? What if all you had was a grade school ID? Who could tell if it was you or one of 25 million others?

The question of building entry wasn’t literally you were who you said you were, but rather you could give some level of proof of this. The building rules were perhaps somewhat arbitrary, but nearly all rules have this feature to some extent.

3

Its just silly what that guard did. Unfortunately I’ve seen the same thing before. Its not like you are asking permission to drive through the building so it shouldn’t make any difference at all.

4

Oh shit, my driver’s license expired last September. I must be fading into obscurity. Pretty soon I’ll be posting but you won’t be able to read it.

No and no. I’m sure it was along the lines of “da rules is da rules.” A picture ID should be enough even if it is expired for everything but driving. The only other exception I could see is if it was a situation where you needed to prove residency somewhere.

5

Anyone very knowledgeable about security will tell you that checking IDs has very little to do with real security whether the ID is expired or not. This kind of thing is what security guru Bruce Schneier refers to as “security theatre”; it looks good and gives the perception that security is being looked after, but it does absolutely nothing to stop any realistic threat.

So no, there was no legitimate reason for excluding you except that the management of the building has put certain “security” procedures in place as a CYA move to guard against liability when some fully-licensed bad guy waltzes in and does a crime. The guard did the absolute right thing, he upheld the security procedures. It’s not his job to evaluate and re-interpret the rules. The problem is with the person who wrote those procedures who may know very little about real security.

6

Agreed that this particular case sounds silly, and doubly so if the picture looked like you. But it’s possible that an expired ID could have been thrown carelessly into the trash by the REAL owner after he’s renewed and gotten a current one. So I guess an expired ID has a microscopically higher chance of being carried by an impostor than the true owner.

7

Only if the imposter is a bonehead (and hence not much of a threat). Anyone who poses a real threat would have no trouble getting absolutely perfect IDs. Rigorously checking IDs didn’t stop the 9/11 hijackers because they’d planned ahead and easily obtained the documentation to make them look “harmless” to people who think checking IDs helps. Anyone with any experience checking IDs at a bar knows that many (most?) underage drinkers present valid IDs and get caught because they fail other checks. Most underage drinkers wouldn’t bother to try using an invalid or bad copy unless they know they can sneak in on the bouncer’s good graces. This is a case where the discretion of the “guard” is very important (failing someone who appears to pass security checks, but never passing someone who appears to fail).

8

It’s a good thing you didn’t tell me you weren’t you when you weren’t you. Cause I would have totally stolen your name. On account of because Zev Steinhardt is the coolest name ever. :smiley:

BTW, did you ask the guy if anyone, ever, anywhere, could have made up a name like Zev Steinhardt? I bet that would have stumped him.

9

An out of date ID is likely to be easier to come by dishonestly - A lot of people will just throw them in the trash when the current one turns up. “Identity theft” is a growing problem and rooting though other people’s garbage is a common way to do it. Also people are going to notice the loss of a current piece of ID and maybe notify possible targets.

Otherwise, what micco says. (As a white male I’ve managed to get into a supposedly very secure building using a pass borrowed from a black female, my own pass with Sgt Bilko’s face pasted over my picture and no pass at all)

Preview shows Patty O’Furniture beat me to it! (“real men don’t preview”)

10

This question has crossed my mind before, and now finally I have a chance to ask:

  • what happens to people in the US who don’t have a driving licence?

Or is that too far-fetched a concept? :wink:

11

Most states issue an ID card that looks similar to a driver’s license. You get them at the same place as a driver’s license.

12

People who don’t drive can go to their state DMV (or whatever it’s called locally) and get a state ID card. Looks and feels like a driver’s license, but does not include driving privileges. Good for cashing checks and other situations where a DL would normally be required.

I had a situation similar to the OP a couple of weeks ago. As I was checking my bags at the airport, the skycap noticed that my drivers license had expired a week earlier. I had to come up with my SS card (which just happened to be in my wallet) in order to check my bags. On the return flight nobody said anything about it.

13

Assume the name of Zev and get his old ID. It won’t help getting in the building however.:smiley:

14

Not a damned thing. While you may have difficulty with certain businesses who require a photo ID, no one can require you to have one. The usual alternative (if you want one) is a passport, and many states have ID cards issued by the same authority that issues drivers’ licenses – California, for instance, has an ID card that looks just like a license, only the print is green instaead of blue (use to be, anyway – I haven’t seen one in years).

15

I had this crap happen to a friend of mine. He didn’t have a license, but he had a passport. It was just renewed, so he took the old one with him.

Of course the bouncer at the door said “I can’t let you in, this is expired”.

I interceded, and asked the bouncer if my friends birthdate was now somehow different. He vapor-locked, muttered to himself and still wouldn’t let my friend in.

I also witnessed a similar exchange in a TGI Fridays. It was pitiful because I knew the bartender very well and couldn’t believe that she didn’t see how the person was still of legal drinking age. If she said something like "my bosses won;t let me look at expired IDs I could have given her a pass; but she was adamant that this person wasn’t of drinking age because of the license expiration.

I never looked at her the same way, nor did I care to have her serve me anymore.

There’s nothing more revolting than “confident ignorance” and “ignorance with authority”.

16

I had a similar thing happen at a Food Lion supermarket in North Carolina last year. I was picking up some wine, and the old bat at the checkout asked me for ID. All I had at the time was my expired NJ ID, but both she and the store manager refused the sale because it wasn’t current. I was 38 at the time! :rolleyes:

17

I never get carded anymore.

I feel so old.

18

It’s silly to blame the security guard, or the checkout clerk, or bartender for following specific procedures that they are required to follow. They don’t get a choice in the matter, even if it looks like they could. They can lose their job if they don’t follow their instructions, so they really don’t have a choice.

Complain to management, that’s where to start.

19

Going back to the OP’s other point about why driver’s licenses have expiration dates, it’s not simply a way for the state to take in revenue (and what one state’s marginal gain on processing an application would be isn’t clear), but the state does want to make sure that it knows where you live and that you still have the ability to drive and such.

And that you’re not dead too.

The library cards for the place where I work expire every three years, but there’s no charge to renew it. It’s just in place so we can confirm your address.

20

It isn’t quite fair to criticize the clerk, however. In Texas, the alcohol law says that the only way for a retailer to show due-diligence is to check a Texas issued DL or ID. A passport, military ID, or other state’s ID won’t work. You could be 121 years old and it won’t matter. Then, if the store got caught selling to a minor, the store could say the clerk checked the state issued ID and it said it was okay. Then, it’s on the buyer for using a fake ID.

Check the law. That could be the problem, not the store or the clerk.