The American South: A Poll

In My Humble Opinion
1

Per Wikipedia: The states in dark red are almost always included in modern day definitions of the South, while those in medium red are usually included. Maryland and Missouri are occasionally considered Southern, while Delaware is only rarely considered part of the South. Oklahoma is sometimes considered Southern because the area of Oklahoma, then known as Indian Territory, was allied with the Confederacy. West Virginia is considered Southern by many, because it was once part of Virginia.

Map

For those that do not wish to click the link, the states always counted as being Southern are listed as Arkansas, Tennessee, North Carolina, Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, and South Carolina while those that are usually considered Southern are Kentucky, Virginia, Texas, and Florida. Those that are only sometimes considered Southern are Oklahoma, Missouri, West Virginia, Maryland, and Delaware.

What I’m curious about is who does not consider Kentucky and Virginia as being Southern. I know that Northern Virginia is pretty much considered a suburb of DC and many residents of the area claim it to not be Southern but the state as a whole definitely is. And Kentucky? How is it not Southern? Because it was a border state? I can see the argument for West Virginia being Midwestern but I flatly refuse to believe Kentucky could be considered such.

What are your opinions?

2

I’m not sure it matters much to have states as Southern or not anymore. Television and later the Internet have made most US states mostly the same; divisions are more and more along rural/urban/suburban and socio-economic lines.

That said, my “South” would not include Oklahoma or Missouri, West Virginia or Delaware. Florida is southern more by geographic definition than attitude. Texas I like to think of as a separate country that has sometimes been inflicted upon us. If the dollar keeps sinking maybe we can sell it back to Mexico. Maryland is a southern feeling at times, but a northern state. Virginia and Kentucky are about as southern as you can get, although a large chunk of Virginia’s population is now DC-lite.

3

Talking about the election campaign in Pennsylvania, someone said of in that it’s Philadelphia in the east, Pittburgh in the west, and Alabama in the middle.

“The South” doesn’t really feel to me like state boundaries really do it justice. The Florida panhandle is unquestionable “The South” to me. Orlando is not. Parts of east Texas are Southern, but a lot of Texas is Texas. West Virginia is further north than North Carolina and actually was created because it didn’t want to BE part of the South, but it feels Southern.

Of course, “The South” has a lot of definitions:

  • Those states that comprised the Confederacy
  • The southeastern part of the country
  • The Confederate states, minus Texas and Florida, which are seen as different, and maybe not Louisiana, which is maybe too different as well
  • Those areas where people have one of a number of distinctively Southern accents, which would include, say, much of Indiana, Oklahoma, and such, but would not include most of southern Florida
  • Areas where conditions are typical of a stereotypical image of “Southern” life, e.g. rural and poor and a lot of C&W music and Jesus stuff, which would include places as far north as New York and as far west as California, but would make many large urban centers sort of NOT sourthern
  • Just a core group of Dixie states - AL, MI, AK, GA, maybe SC, but maybe not NC and VA
4

Alaska is well above Mason-Dixon’s line, Sir. :slight_smile:

5

Kentucky does sort of straddle the border between the mid-west and the south. Put it in either region and it seems like an outsider.

6

I am going mostly with RickJay here. I am from Louisiana which almost no one claims isn’t the South except New Orleans is it’s own thing. However, I grew up right on the Louisiana/Texas border and Texans attended my public schools. I knew I was Southern and they were the same although just over the border in East Texas so I am certain that East Texas is Southern.

Most of Virginia is too. There is no doubt about it. Just go to the Civil War battlefields and watch native Virginians blotting an eye for the Confederate casualties. Richmond is most definitely Southern as is everything below it.

Kentucky is a hard case. It definitely seems Southern but it wasn’t part of the Confederacy so that deducts points but they have the accent and lifestyle. I used to travel to the Indiana/Ohio border for business. I couldn’t believe how strong their Southern accent was although I would never consider either Southern.

The panhandle of Florida is Southern. That is all there is too it. There is nothing to suggest it isn’t Southern and everything to say that it is.

Delaware is not Southern and I always feel punched in the stomach when someone suggests that it is. The place doesn’t even exist. Maryland is marginal to the extreme.

7

Delaware? Southern? I think not.

The parts of Maryland I’ve seen – no. Other parts could be more Southern, but once you get to the area around DC and north, no way at all.

I’d never consider Oklahoma Southern, either. Nor the majority of Texas, though I’ll agree that East Texas is more Southern than the rest (which is Texan, and only Texan, and don’t you dare imply that it’s anything else!).

West Virginia and Missouri are up in the air, though. I’m not so sure on those. I think they’re far more arguable than Oklahoma.

Shagnasty, I was under the impression that most of Louisiana thinks New Orleans is it’s own planet. And I’ve lived both near New Orleans and in Shreveport. (They do not have the slightest idea how to do a Mardi Gras parade in Shreveport. My now ex and I were horrified!) But North Louisiana is very Southern, though a bit more Catholic and less Baptist than the other parts of the South I’ve been in.

North Florida, totally Southern. South Florida, totally not.

8

So is Michigan.

9

You can’t have the capital of the South during the Civil war NOT be in a state that can’t be considered “Southern” IMHO.

Virginia is a Southern state, and Northern Virginia just doesn’t count towards that, hence the distinction. You never really really say “southern VA”, it’s always Virginia and “Northern Virginia”.

10

You’ve never been to Baltimore? It is it’s own weird place, but it does have a sort of Southern vibe. The Eastern shore is very southern feel. The middle and western parts of the state are very southern feeling as well. About the only parts that are not are the DC suburbs (see Northern Virginia) and certain aspects of Baltimore.

11

AL is Alabama. AK is Alaska.
Having lived in northern Virginia for 19 years, I can affirm that it is most definitely not Southern. At all. The rest of VA, I’m pretty sure is, though I haven’t really lived there.

12

As may be, Confederate troops didn’t get a great HURRAH welcome during 1862 and 1863 when they crossed the Potomac and got playful. For that alone I’d not consider Maryland a southern state.

And anyone who considers Virginia (where I lived for many many years, both rural and suburban) a non-Southern state doesn’t really have a feel for the pounding it took as both the CSA capital and the frontline in the war. Note, for example, that the house I lived in out in the Blue Ridge ‘suddenly’ needed to be rebuilt in 1864.

Or, as an author I recall once said ‘You live in Virginia your country’s been invaded’.

Kentucky is a separate matter. It didn’t secede but there were strong sentiments for doing so at the time. But, like West Virginia, I think it would be more accurate to refer to it as ‘Appalachian’ rather than southern (or even northern).

13

Geez, am I embarassed. Of course I knew Arkansas is AR and Mississippi is MS. I think.

14

I prefer Joel Garreau’s Nine Nations of North America theory, wherein some states are divided between two or more “nations.” (Texas is partly in Dixie, partly in the Breadbasket, partly MexAmerica.)

15

This is complicated, as I can think of two definitions.

If it is the “historic South” that is the concern, then it should be remembered that there were two: the Mississippi-Alabama-Georgia-Louisiana-South Carolina-Florida “Deep South” belt, and the “Upper South” of Tennessee-Virginia-Arkansas-North Carolina, with Texas as a land of its own and states like Maryland as “Border” states.

However, if we consider it today, and use cultural definitions, then it goes something like this:

West Virginia belongs, roughly, in the same cultural grouping that western Virginia, East Tennessee, western North Carolina, and eastern Kentucky are found in, which, while related to the South, has some important differences, such as political traditions.

Southern Louisiana is a world of its own.

West Texas, the “Little Dixie” section of New Mexico, and parts of California (Kern County is in mind) also belong to a “related, but not quite the same” grouping.

South Texas belongs with southern Arizona and northern New Mexico (and, to an extent, Imperial County in California), as another zone of difference.

I’m tempted to divide Florida in thirds: North Florida is Southern, South Florida is a world of its own, and I’m trying to make up my mind where to place Central Florida.

Areas not in traditional Southern states that fit the cultural definition:

The “Little Dixie” of Oklahoma, western Kentucky, certain parts (but not all) of rural Missouri, southern Illinois, southern Indiana, the parts of southern Ohio away from Cincinnati, the Eastern Shore of Maryland, rural Delaware (though this is changing), and southwestern New Jersey.

Areas in Southern states (not already mentioned) that are either clearly non-Southern in culture or which might be categorized elsewhere:

Metropolitan Atlanta, the Washington suburbs in Virginia, much of the Hampton Roads area, the Raleigh-Durham-Chapel Hill area, and all part of Texas (excepting East Texas) not already mentioned. Of these, Metro Atlanta and much of Texas are in the “cultures of their own” category, the Washington suburbs in Virginia are part of a “Beltway” cultural grouping, Hampton Roads is in the same grouping as San Diego, and the areas Raleigh-Durham-Chapel Hill are similar to are all clearly non-Southern culturally.

16

I’ve been to the South (Atlanta, Savannah, Daytona Beach) and I wouldn’t consider northern Kentucky (Cincinnati, Ohio metro area) to be very Southern at all. Sure, they talk funny, but so do westside Cincinnatians. :wink:

Southern Kentucky is probably a bit different, I imagine.

17

As I’ve been born and raised in northern Virginia, I can definitely say that it is not “Southern.” My mother is from southern Virginia, and when we visit her family…yeah, that is definitely the south. I’ve never been to a part of Maryland that I would consider “South” but I’ve been to plenty of parts of West Virginia that fit into the general Southern stereotype.

Of course, my ex-gf from Boston always says that I’m a Southerner. And when I say “no I’m not, I’m from northern Virginia” she just gives me a look. So take that for what you will.

18

Garreau takes perhaps the most expansive view of the South, including not only KY and WV but also the “Butternut Country” of southern Illinois, Indiana, and Ohio. And indeed, there is much to recommend this: Southern Illlinoisans have Southern accents, and mostly Southern ancestry, and to this day vote more Democratic than central Illinois out of ancestral habit.

In some contexts, however, one must follow state boundaries–for example, if we were to discuss how will the “Southern” electoral votes shake out in this year’s election? In such contexts I always define the South as the eleven states of the Confederacy–no more, and no less. Geography must be forever determined by the secession conventions of 1861!

19

Oklahoma, West Virginia, Maryland, and Delaware aren’t southern IMHO. Maryland and Deleware are neither northern or southern, and OK is too far west to be southern. West Virginia is a special case, though. They hated the south so much they broke from it. Clearly they didn’t want to be considered southern, so let’s don’t.

Virginia is southern. Kentucky feels southern too. I suppose Missouri must be as well if Kentucky is.

20

I’d like to see responses correlated with age. :slight_smile: