Pls Explain Georgia/Russia Brouhaha

[DanBlather]

Can someone explain to me what's going on?

[groman]

Originally Posted by DanBlather

Can someone explain to me what's going on?

Short (and mostly imprecise) version:

Georgia has a very small semi-autonomous part called South Ossetia that's been clamoring for independence. Historically it was separate, then annexed into the Russian empire about two hundred years ago, and then due to Soviet shenanigans wound up being part of Georgia. When Soviet Union started breaking up, the clamoring for independence became louder and more violent. It broke out into violence before in 1991, and tension was pretty thick for the past twenty years.

So a few days ago ceasefire was broken, and both sides pretty much snapped. There's a lot of pointing fingers going on about who broke the ceasefire, and I am not going to take sides on that issue. Russia, the giant that borders them, decided to help out the South Ossetians fight back against the "Georgian injustice" (Hint: Georgia has a major oil pipeline, like Chechnya). So now there's a war which is essentially between Russia and Georgia, and now I'm hearing that Russia started all-out shelling and bombing various Georgian cities outside of South Ossetia as well as factories near Tbilisi (Georgian capital).

[threemae]

groman has given an excellent broad history.

Here's a four page "explainer" from today's New York Times that presents a good overview of recent history including Georgia's strongly pro-Western president, his interactions with Putin, ad the more immediate causes of the current strife in Georgia.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/10/we...=1&oref=slogin

[friedo]

Short explanation:

1991:
USSR: We are kaput.
Georgia: Hooray, we are now our own country. Let's cozy up to the Americans.

1992:
South Ossieta: We hate the Georgians and want to be our own country, let's rebel and achieve de facto independence.
Russia: We will semi-covertly help our friends in South Ossieta because the smelly Georgians annoy us.

2008:
Georgia: These crazy separatists are committing attacks in our territory. Let's re-take the rebellious province.
South Ossieta: Help us, Pooty-Poot!
Russia: You better knock it off or we will invade South Ossieta because we hate your coziness with America we want to protect their freedoms!
USA: Whoa, guys, like, whoa. This is totally fucked up. We'll go whistle in the corner over here while you figure this shit out. Like, whoa, man.

And that's the gist of it.

[Little Nemo]

When the Soviet Union broke up, Russia and Georgia were two of the countries that resulted from that breakup. In Georgia there is a group of people called the Ossetians; they decided to start their own country instead of staying in Georgia. They fought with the Georgians for a couple of years until a ceasefire was signed in 1992. South Ossetia became a sort of independant country. It wasn't controlled by Georgia anymore but it was not recognized as an independant country so legally speaking it was still part of Georgia.

Russia has been sending aid to the Ossetians. There have been breakdowns in the ceasefire agreement and military attacks across the "border". Georgia, which has said all along that South Ossetia is still part of Georgia, decided to occupy South Ossetia this month. Russia opposed this move and sent troops into South Ossetia to stop this.

[Tamerlane]

Originally Posted by groman

Historically it was separate, then annexed into the Russian empire about two hundred years ago, and then due to Soviet shenanigans wound up being part of Georgia.

Where do people keep getting this? Historically South Ossetia has been under one or another Georgian suzerainties. Either a unitary Georgian king or one of a number of autonomous substates/chieftaincies - in particular the state of Kartli. Like the Caucasus generally it seems to have a rather complex history, as factionation usually trumped unitary states in the area. But it has generally been Georgian territory. North Ossetia is something else altogether and is what you'll often see marked on historical maps as "Ossetia", just north of Georgia.

South Ossetia's incorporation into Georgia has nothing to do with the Soviets and everything to do with the fact that it was a part of Georgia when Georgia was annexed by Imperial Russia in 1801. However its status as an autonomous sattelite within Georgia does derive from Soviet shenanigans.

[gonzomax]

Originally Posted by groman

Short (and mostly imprecise) version:

Georgia has a very small semi-autonomous part called South Ossetia that's been clamoring for independence. Historically it was separate, then annexed into the Russian empire about two hundred years ago, and then due to Soviet shenanigans wound up being part of Georgia. When Soviet Union started breaking up, the clamoring for independence became louder and more violent. It broke out into violence before in 1991, and tension was pretty thick for the past twenty years.

So a few days ago ceasefire was broken, and both sides pretty much snapped. There's a lot of pointing fingers going on about who broke the ceasefire, and I am not going to take sides on that issue. Russia, the giant that borders them, decided to help out the South Ossetians fight back against the "Georgian injustice" (Hint: Georgia has a major oil pipeline, like Chechnya). So now there's a war which is essentially between Russia and Georgia, and now I'm hearing that Russia started all-out shelling and bombing various Georgian cities outside of South Ossetia as well as factories near Tbilisi (Georgian capital).

Had a pipeline. Internets says it was bombed today.

[Stranger On A Train]

Originally Posted by friedo

2008:
Georgia: These crazy separatists are committing attacks in our territory. Let's re-take the rebellious province.
South Ossieta: Help us, Pooty-Poot!
Russia: You better knock it off or we will invade South Ossieta because we hate your coziness with America we want to protect their freedoms!
USA: Whoa, guys, like, whoa. This is totally fucked up. We'll go whistle in the corner over here while you figure this shit out. Like, whoa, man.

And that's the gist of it.

You need to finish it off: And Australia is like, "WTF, mate?"

Tamerlane is correct that the region now defined as "South Ossetia" has traditionally been under Georgian rule, and while it was an "Autonomous Oblast" (a regional administrative division) it was still part of the Georgian Soviet Socialist Republic. I don't believe it has even been considered a part of any Russian empire directly except as a part of integrated Georgia. However, the Ossetian people have an entirely different ethnic and linguistic heritage than Georgians or Russians and have long sought autonomy, so they are using the current pre-existing tensions between Russia and Georgia (and in turn, being used by Russia) to create conflict that further impairs Georgia's capability to exert political control over the region.

In general, we're seeing a rise of the kind of ethnic strife plus international interests that will result in The Great Game, Act II.

Stranger

[madmonk28]

A good source of information on the region is www.rferl.org (Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty). It has good general news, plus great in depth reporting and analysis.

[groman]

Originally Posted by Tamerlane

Where do people keep getting this? Historically South Ossetia has been under one or another Georgian suzerainties.

Hmm, that's an interesting. I don't know where 'people keep getting this' but I was going from my loose recollection of something I read back in Russia as a kid. My mental time line for South Ossetia is Georgian rule under Tamar and after, then a period under the Mongols, then a period of independence and general neighborly strife, then annexation into Russian Empire, then part of Georgian Republic under Soviet Union, then today's situation. I'm probably totally off though.

[even sven]

My hip-with-Georgia sources tell me that "this conflict has everything to do with everything but Ossetia." I didn't get much more than that, but it seems that the speed and totality of the attack was unexpected, represents something that must have been planned for some time, and is almost certainly a reaction to Georgia's pro-west government.

[madmonk28]

There is speculation that Russia is making it clear that they will not accept a Nato ally in what it considers its "near abroad." This is supported by the fact that Russia's minster of foreign affairs told Rice in a call that the current president of Georgia "has to go."

[Baldwin]

And there's also the factor of U.S. ABM systems too close to Russia for the liking of Putin and that guy he allows to be president. (Which reminds me of 1962, which makes me nervous, considering what kind of folks we have in the White House these days.)

[Tristan]

Today's article on CNN.com stated that South Ossetia wants to be made one with North Ossetia. Since North Ossetia is part of Russia proper, that basically means that this is part of an overal attempt to annex territory into Russia.

Whether that will happen, and under what guise, remains to be seen.

[Stranger On A Train]

Originally Posted by Tristan

Today's article on CNN.com stated that South Ossetia wants to be made one with North Ossetia. Since North Ossetia is part of Russia proper, that basically means that this is part of an overal attempt to annex territory into Russia.

Guys, remember that everybody here has a different agenda. The Georgians want access to oil; the Russians want a buffer, and NATO wants to spread the joy, while the ethnic Ossetians want independence from both the Slavic-dominated Russians and Iberian Gerogians. It's just to the advantage of the South Ossetians right now to beg help from Russia, and to Russia's advantage to have a seemingly-legitimate excuse to flex her muscles.

Stranger

[KRSOradio]

You'er forgetting the Kosovo factor. The US and most of the countries of the EU have said it's fine for an ethnically distinct part of a nation to rebel and declare independence.

That will have a huge effect in the future on rebel movements.

[Švejk]

That's true. To nitpick, though:

1) Kosovo did not rebel, it held a plebiscite. It was a pretty non-violent affair.
2) The US and the EU have not said it's ok to invade other countries without a UN resolution to back you up. That precedent was created by the US invading Iraq.

[Švejk]

Originally Posted by Stranger On A Train

... while the ethnic Ossetians want independence from both the Slavic-dominated Russians and Iberian Gerogians.

Iberia is Spain and Portugal, you know that right?

[Eva Luna]

Originally Posted by Švejk

Iberia is Spain and Portugal, you know that right?

Some scholars also refer to the languages spoken in the Caucasus as the Ibero-Caucasian language group, though most of the recent info I've seen suggests that there are multiple language groups in the Caucasus whose relationship is hotly disputed (like everything else in the Caucasus, it seems), if indeed there is any relationship at all between some of the languages.

[Captain Amazing]

Originally Posted by Švejk

Iberia is Spain and Portugal, you know that right?

It is , but Georgia is also part of a region called Caucasian Iberia, which was an ancient Georgian kingdom.

[ralph124c]

Once more, the USA has blundered into a situation that has BOTH sides mad at us, and to NO discernable advantage. this idiocy of expanding NATO gas GOT TO STOP! We are already in enough trouble-let's NOT go asking for more!!

[Švejk]

Originally Posted by Captain Amazing

It is , but Georgia is also part of a region called Caucasian Iberia, which was an ancient Georgian kingdom.

Alright then. Ignorance fought. Carry on.

In other news: Russia now started a 'second front' and has invaded Georgia through Abkhazia as well. Story here.

[Jodi]

Originally Posted by ralph124c

Once more, the USA has blundered into a situation that has BOTH sides mad at us, and to NO discernable advantage. this idiocy of expanding NATO gas GOT TO STOP! We are already in enough trouble-let's NOT go asking for more!!

Trying (and failing) to see how the U.S. "blundered" into the situation or has "asked for" anything. Last I heard GWB was cozying up to the women's beach volleyball team and issuing Strongly Worded Messages Deploring The Situation. Your post is IMO more evidence that to some the U.S. is always at fault for everything.

[Captain Amazing]

Originally Posted by Jodi

Trying (and failing) to see how the U.S. "blundered" into the situation or has "asked for" anything.

Well, we're allied with Georgia and supported their failed attempts to join NATO. It's possible our alliance with Georgia is what he considered our "blundering".

[Tamerlane]

Originally Posted by groman

Hmm, that's an interesting. I don't know where 'people keep getting this' but I was going from my loose recollection of something I read back in Russia as a kid.

Sorry if I came off as pissy . It's just I've seen a comment similar to your first post in another thread here and a couple of other places elsewhere. I was actually semi-serious about my question and wonder if it was some internet meme propagating due to a poorly written news article or the like.

It is a complex area ( the Caucasus makes the Balkans look simple and uncluttered ), especially in light of recent events since the Soviet dissolution. So it really isn't that difficult to pick up mistaken impressions. I'm not such an expert that I expect not to get caught in an error or two myself .

[GorillaMan]

Originally Posted by Švejk

Iberia is Spain and Portugal, you know that right?

And Andorra! And Gibraltar!!

[Little Nemo]

I don't see the "Georgia as a buffer" idea holding much water. A buffer against what? I doubt Armenia was planning on invading Russia and if they were, moving the border forward a hundred miles isn't really going to be a factor. If anything, Georgia is being removed as a buffer - if the Russians occupy Georgia, they will once again adjoin Armenia and Turkey and will extend their frontier with Azerbaijan.

I also don't see how the Russians can go for South Ossetian indepedence. If they create an independent Ossetian state, they have to believe the North Ossetians will push to secede from Russia and join it. Not that this would end the problems; there's a group called the Ghalguis who are trying to secede from Ossetia.

[fiddlesticks]

Bush went to Tbilisi in '05 and said we'd support them...

"The path of freedom you have chosen is not easy, but you will not travel it alone. Americans respect your courageous choice for liberty. And as you build a free and democratic Georgia, the American people will stand with you."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...d=opinionsbox1

It was one of those rare foreign trips where George was met by rapturous applause instead of anger or indifference.

The Georgians tried to kick a beehive and got attacked by a bear for their troubles. So the Georgians are probably a bit miffed we didn't follow up on those words while the Russians are pleased that the US won't be sticking their nose in the Caucuses again anytime soon.

At least we haven't lost the Albanians...(yet)

[Eva Luna]

Originally Posted by fiddlesticks

the US won't be sticking their nose in the Caucuses again anytime soon.

:: nitpick ::

Caucuses are part of the U.S. election process. The Caucasus is a mountain range running through the southern part of the Russian Federation, Armenia, Georgia, and Azerbaijan.

[fiddlesticks]

Originally Posted by Eva Luna

:: nitpick ::

Caucuses are part of the U.S. election process. The Caucasus is a mountain range running through the southern part of the Russian Federation, Armenia, Georgia, and Azerbaijan.

D'oh, blame Firefox's spell checker!

[mswas]

This article is a great breakdown of the conflict in a very concise manner.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/com...cle4509624.ece

[WormTheRed]

Originally Posted by mswas

This article is a great breakdown of the conflict in a very concise manner.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/com...cle4509624.ece

Brilliant article! But I'm not surprised, since Montefiore knows quite a bit about the region and is also a really good writer.

[don't ask]

Originally Posted by fiddlesticks

Bush went to Tbilisi in '05 and said we'd support them...

"The path of freedom you have chosen is not easy, but you will not travel it alone. Americans respect your courageous choice for liberty. And as you build a free and democratic Georgia, the American people will stand with you."

Gee you don't have to go back that far. Last month Condoleezza Rice went to Georgia to meet with Mikhail Saakashvili. She said, “It is extremely important that the conflicts in Abkhazia and South Ossetia be resolved on the basis of principles that respect the territorial integrity of Georgia.”

Eduard Kokoity, leader of South Ossetia said, "I have no doubts that the U.S. position on the Georgian-Abkhaz and Georgian-Ossetian conflicts is only letting Georgia off the leash and will lead to further tensions over Abkhazia and South Ossetia."

Good judge eh?

[MikeS]

Originally Posted by fiddlesticks

Bush went to Tbilisi in '05 and said we'd support them...

"The path of freedom you have chosen is not easy, but you will not travel it alone. Americans respect your courageous choice for liberty. And as you build a free and democratic Georgia, the American people will stand with you."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...d=opinionsbox1

It was one of those rare foreign trips where George was met by rapturous applause instead of anger or indifference.

True, but any trip where someone throws a grenade at the president can't be counted as a total triumph in public relations.

[jimmmy]

Not saying anything here is wrong but one aspect I think that is underplayed and could use more expansion is that there is a hardline Russian Nationalist potlical party (United Russian ) in control. Their spiritual ancestors have always feared NATO expansion. They have always felt that the fall of the USSR did not mean the end of Russian Empire. . Some in the West have pointed out that the this Party exaggerates or uses external enemies to mask problems at home (and you may ask what government doesn't and you would be right).

In the last 9 years former Warsaw pact Countries or pieces of the USSR itself: Poland, Hungary, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Bulgaria, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, & the Czech republic– all became NATO members. All NATO Governments have agreed that Albania and Croatia are all but in, in just the last month. The Czechs and Hungarians are likely going to be part of the NATO missile shield which Putin (no longer the President) recently threw a fit about. I think all this is a trend that continuing unabated demands a response from Putin and his party

I think that is partially “Why” this is happening in this way. While acknowledging the long history and other factors, internal Russian politics is pushing this to roll out in this way at this time – Putin’s Party was elected with 64% of the vote in a non-free election to handle things just like this in just this manner. It is a major piece of their entire raison d'être. We can look for contributing factors etc. but certainly one prime mover of what we are seeing play out in Georgia and Ossetia is that. This sort of harda$$ action is precisely part of what some portions of the Russian people voted for, and what the Russian Cabal in charge see themselves as (partially) supposed to do.