Atheism and the eleemosynary impulse: how can I be most efficient in charity?

[Skald the Rhymer]

After leaving work yesterday, I stopped by an office supply store. When I came out of the story, I chanced upon a woman who looked to be in her late forties or early fifties, asking for money so that she could catch a bus. She was able to name a specific destination that a nearby bus would take her, and it was cold and raining, and I had both time and money, so I told her I'd take her where she needed to go. She was hesitant to get in the car with me, but I managed to convince her that I am neither a rapist nor a murderer, so she got in; and as she hadn't eaten that day, or said she hadn't, I stopped at McDonald's to buy her dinner and coffee.

The woman was very grateful. She thanked God for my arrival as we were driving away from the restaurant. This I simply ignored. But a few minutes later, when she asked me what church I attended, I felt obliged to tell her that I'm an atheist. She found this very surprising, and more than a little off-putting, and seemed to get nervous again; and she acted quite relieved when I dropped her off.

This reaction didn't surprise me. Memphis is a city of churches, and atheists have a bad rep in American culture anyway. But it got me to thinking that perhaps I could do something, in a small way, that would at once be helpful to the less fortunate and also to dispel the notion that atheists are baby-raping murderers who eat kittens. So this morning I looked at the budget, and I see where I could squeeze enough money to, for instance, give out two breakfasts to homeless people every day. Finding them would be depressingly easy. Alternatively I could buy tickets to the Memphis Union Mission, which provides warm beds for a nominal charge; you can buy the tickets and give them directly to the person in need, thus ensuring that the money doesn't get spent on cigarettes and beer. I don't want to be pushy or proselytizing as I do this, but I can I can make a point of telling people I help that I'm an atheist doing this because it makes me feel good to help others and because I don't want people thinking you must believe in God to be evil.

Anyway....I've opened this thread for ideas, recommendations, criticisms, and so forth. How can I best use my meager resources? Bear in mind that the primary purpose here is to helpful to people in need, not to convert anybody to atheism. How

[jsgoddess]

Originally Posted by Skald the Rhymer

Anyway....I've opened this thread for ideas, recommendations, criticisms, and so forth. How can I best use my meager resources? Bear in mind that the primary purpose here is to helpful to people in need, not to convert anybody to atheism. How

Recently, I'm all about the food pantries, so I would suggest you donate to one.

As for reminding (or educating) people that atheists can be kind and do good, well, just remember that people in need already might feel pushed and pulled and imposed upon. Go here, do this, go there, get in line, etc. I wouldn't want to add to that pressure, personally, through anything more overt than answering a direct question, as you did with the woman you helped.

[tdn]

Agreed, I wouldn't bring it up unless you are asked. And even then, don't make a big deal out of it. I think that fewer people would have problems with atheists if we didn't make a huge deal out of it ourselves.

As for someone trusting you enough to get in your car, I had a similar experience last year. Sort of.

I was walking to work, and was running a few minutes late. Someone pulled up next to me to ask for directions to the hospital district. I was about to explain how to get there, but it's a bit complicated. He'd probably get lost. I said "I'll make you a deal. I'm going there myself and I'm running late. Give me a ride, and I'll guide you every step of the way."

He was really suspicious at first, but I think it dawned on him that I generally don't find my victims by waiting for them to ask me for directions.

[Gleena]

I give to http://www.thesmithfamily.com.au/site/page.cfm

It's a great secular charity and they do good work.

Plus, I give money directly to a couple of our local homeless here, and a bit more importantly, I try to spend a few minutes talking to them each week. (Two older gentlemen around here, generally drunk, kind of 'not right' but generally harmless as well.) They don't make a lot of sense but sometimes I think that the human contact, even if it's for 10 minutes or so, is something they don't get a lot of. It's just a bit of "Hi, how are you, getting on ok?" and then listening to them go on about whatever, but one of them told me I'm the only person who ever talks to him, instead of at him, and I make him less lonely. I got a bit sniffly.

So a couple of guys I slip 10, 20 bucks a week and hope they buy food with it, give them a little of my time, and give a good amount of money to The Smith Family and *not* the Salvos or St Vincent's.

That's all I can think of.

[Oakminster]

I don't like the "money with a message" concept. If you want to do good deeds, do them. A meal from an atheist is no more or less nutritious than a meal from a religious person.

Then again, if you are just determined to make a splash, so to speak, the thing to do is go corporate. The Christians have the Salvation Army. You could form the Atheist Horde. WoW players will even let you borrow the catchphrase "For the Horde!". Granted, that phrase is often associated with decapitating gnomes, dwarves, draenei, night elves or humans, but it's nothing a little PR spin can't fix.

Or counter the Salvation Army with the Atheist Air Force. Rent a small plane and distribute live turkeys meal tickets to the homeless by air drop.

[Kalhoun]

We volunteer a few hours a month at the local shelters. They always need people to make lunches for the guests to take with them, and they need set-up assistance to put the pads and linens on the floors, serve dinner, etc. It's easy to carve out the time, and it's meaningful.

[Lightnin']

Originally Posted by tdn

I think that fewer people would have problems with atheists if we didn't make a huge deal out of it ourselves.

This concept has always bugged me. If you were to say that you have no problem with Jews if they just keep quiet about their religion, people would be calling for your head.

[Blalron]

Originally Posted by tdn

Agreed, I wouldn't bring it up unless you are asked. And even then, don't make a big deal out of it. I think that fewer people would have problems with atheists if we didn't make a huge deal out of it ourselves.

I strongly disagree with the sentiment expressed in your post. Atheists are an almost invisible minority in this country, and continued reluctance to make ourselves known is only going to perpetuate the problem and keep the discriminatory attitudes going.

In the 232 year history of this country, I know of only one openly atheist person elected to Congress. Pete Stark of California. I think that speaks volumes about how much atheists are disliked in the U.S.A.

[Hari Seldon]

If someone were to ask me what church I attended, I would say, "None". If they were to persist in asking me what my religion was, I would reply that I was born a Jew. If they persisted some more, I would say I was an atheist and if they were offended I would tell them not to ask questions if there were answers they didn't like. Maybe in Montreal, people don't pry since none of this has ever happened to me.

[PopeJewish]

I agree that atheists don't terribly impose their opinions on others and saying they do is a bit ridiculous. They farthest they go is making fun of Creationists for trying to get ID taught as a science (which is something that should be mocked and dismissed, so I have no problem with that).

However, I also agree that being charitable should be something you do not to say "hey, atheists are good people too" and try and include a message with it, but to say "dude, you're in need, I got some extra, no worries." I used to regularly give some of the homeless guys in my old town my leftovers from dinner and such when I saw them on my way home (one was this super-jolly old guy who was a bit... simple? Don't want to sound insulting, but he was rather slow. Anyway, super nice old guy, always super appreciative of someone's help. THey were all fun to talk to for awhile, though they creeped out some of my female friends).

If you really want to make a point that you're an atheist, make up a little button or a t-shirt basically saying "Atheists for a more caring planet" or something silly like that, and don't ever really bring it up but if people ask about your button than you can explain to them that atheists aren't less-charitable or at a lower moral standing than any other religion.

Oh yea, and what's wrong with a homeless guy buying beer or cigarettes? I have no problem with them indulging in some vices to make them feel better about how shit their lives must be, we all do it, so why can't they? Granted if they're doing it to the point of it impedeing their ability to eat, or if the drugs lead them to their homeless state (not usually something you find alcohol or cigarettes doing) than yea, they shouldn't indulge. But saying a homeless guy shouldn't buy beer is messed up.

[sugar and spice]

I think it's good to talk about your motivation and experiences of doing good but there are other people to deliver the message to besides the people you want to help. You can find a group volunteer activity and get to know the other volunteers, I'm sure you'll find people who are happy to have these conversations. If you you want to do informal stuff then tell your friends, or even invite them to come pass out sandwiches with you. If you want to do good via donations then you can find non-faith-based charities, write them and let them know that the reason you picked them is because they are not religious.

[Gleena]

Originally Posted by PopeJewish

Oh yea, and what's wrong with a homeless guy buying beer or cigarettes? I have no problem with them indulging in some vices to make them feel better about how shit their lives must be, we all do it, so why can't they? Granted if they're doing it to the point of it impedeing their ability to eat, or if the drugs lead them to their homeless state (not usually something you find alcohol or cigarettes doing) than yea, they shouldn't indulge. But saying a homeless guy shouldn't buy beer is messed up.

Nothing at all, and I never mention it when I give the guys some cash, but one of them is pretty thin and I try to give him enough so that if he does buy a bottle or a pack of smokes he'll have enough left over for a bit of food, too. That particular guy I've also given cash and something to eat as well. My two homeless blokes I talk to I've been talking to for about two years, so I kind of worry about them. The thinner one disappeared for about a month and I was so glad to see him again, turned out he'd been in the hospital for something (or so he said, you never really know) but he seemed pretty pleased to see me and reassured me he was ok.

Neither of them know or would probably care about my atheism. I mostly make it a point to support secular organised charities in that regard. I just care about people, these guys don't seem dangerous, they only know my first name, and...well, basically if I were on the streets I'd like someone to notice me. Too many people just walk on by or say something rude.

As an aside, I watched a Salvo here shoo off a homeless guy who was pretty harmless looking. That was just sad.

[MadPansy64]

Originally Posted by PopeJewish

If you really want to make a point that you're an atheist, make up a little button or a t-shirt basically saying "Atheists for a more caring planet" or something silly like that, and don't ever really bring it up but if people ask about your button than you can explain to them that atheists aren't less-charitable or at a lower moral standing than any other religion.

How about a comment (written or verbal) along the (grammatically correct) line of "I do things because it's right, not because god told me to"?

[jsgoddess]

Originally Posted by MadPansy64

How about a comment (written or verbal) along the (grammatically correct) line of "I do things because it's right, not because god told me to"?

If you want to forward the idea of atheists as smug and condescending, that'd be a great statement to make in public!

I hate when people preach at me, or bring up their religion at me, or otherwise try to impress me with their holiness. It wouldn't be any different for a believer to have an atheist do the same thing. If people are hungry, they want a sandwich, not a sandwich and a sermon (or even a sandwich and a statement). Just the sandwich. Conversations can happen naturally. People won't think atheists are nice people unless we act like nice people.

[j666]

Originally Posted by Skald the Rhymer

... I felt obliged to tell her that I'm an atheist. She found this very surprising, and more than a little off-putting, and seemed to get nervous again; and she acted quite relieved when I dropped her off.

I don't want to be pushy or proselytizing as I do this, but I can I can make a point of telling people I help that I'm an atheist doing this because it makes me feel good to help others and because I don't want people thinking you must believe in God to be evil.

Anyway....I've opened this thread for ideas, recommendations, criticisms, and so forth. How can I best use my meager resources? Bear in mind that the primary purpose here is to helpful to people in need, not to convert anybody to atheism. How

Well, you've already done it. That woman will be telling that story ("... and he said, "Actually, I'm an atheist". Still, he was doing the Lord's work, so let's pray for him.") to all her friends.

Why don't you start a small non-profit that collects donations for food pantries? Push the atheist angle while collecting, to make the point, but never while distributing, so to avoid the accusation of proselytizing the the vulnerable.

"Goodies from the Godless"
"Non-Fundie Foods"
"Atheist Appetizers"

(I am not an atheist, but I am areligious. I believe that only atheists, who have no fear of an omniscient and omnipotent vengeful god, can truly be good. Atheists can do good only for its own sake.)

[MadPansy64]

Originally Posted by jsgoddess

If you want to forward the idea of atheists as smug and condescending, that'd be a great statement to make in public!

From the OP:

Originally Posted by Skald the Rhymer

I don't want to be pushy or proselytizing as I do this, but I can I can make a point of telling people I help that I'm an atheist doing this because it makes me feel good to help others and because I don't want people thinking you must believe in God to be evil.

How is "'I do something because it's right, not because god told me to'?" more smug and condescending? Or pushy?

BTW, Skald -- I don't believe in God, so therefor I am not evil? Huh? I'm personally okay with the concept, but ya might wanna spin it a bit before the papers pick it up. Good PR will reduce your flying monkey budget.

[Rand Rover]

Rewarding people for making bad choices doesn't help them, it just subsidizes their bad behavior. The way to respond to a homeless person that will help them the most is to just walk on by and not give them a damn thing.

[Gleena]

Originally Posted by Rand Rover

Rewarding people for making bad choices doesn't help them, it just subsidizes their bad behavior. The way to respond to a homeless person that will help them the most is to just walk on by and not give them a damn thing.

What's it like to be perfect? Like, does it itch a bit, or do you sweat gold or something? I've always wanted to know.

[jsgoddess]

Originally Posted by MadPansy64

How is "'I do something because it's right, not because god told me to'?" more smug and condescending? Or pushy?

It's "I'm an atheist but I can be a nice person, too" versus "I'm an atheist therefore my motives are better."

[j666]

Originally Posted by Rand Rover

Rewarding people for making bad choices doesn't help them, it just subsidizes their bad behavior. The way to respond to a homeless person that will help them the most is to just walk on by and not give them a damn thing.

Tell me that was irony.

(I want to make a pledge to 'Goodies from the Godless", Skald.)

[MadPansy64]

Originally Posted by jsgoddess

It's "I'm an atheist but I can be a nice person, too" versus "I'm an atheist therefore my motives are better."

I'm missing something here. I did not mean that as a way to get in your face, and honestly believed it was a simple, nonconfrontational statement.

Apparently I was wrong.

[Grumman]

Originally Posted by MadPansy64

I'm missing something here. I did not mean that as a way to get in your face, and honestly believed it was a simple, nonconfrontational statement.

Apparently I was wrong.

I think it's fine. The belief that it is presumably intended to combat, that their false god is the only source of good in the world, that is smug and condescending.

[jsgoddess]

Originally Posted by MadPansy64

I'm missing something here. I did not mean that as a way to get in your face, and honestly believed it was a simple, nonconfrontational statement.

Apparently I was wrong.

Well, I'm not going to claim to speak for anyone else, but to my ears "I do something because it's right, not because god told me to" is very confrontational. There's a strong implication there about other people. That's my reading. That doesn't mean anyone would agree with me!

[Rand Rover]

Originally Posted by Gleena

What's it like to be perfect? Like, does it itch a bit, or do you sweat gold or something? I've always wanted to know.

Right, because those are the only two options--homeless or perfect.

right back atcha.

[MadPansy64]

Originally Posted by jsgoddess

It's "I'm an atheist but I can be a nice person, too" versus "I'm an atheist therefore my motives are better."

Now, *that* strikes me as overly apologetic, arrogant and ever so vaguely whiny -- as in "Gee, I'd love to be a truly nice person, but I can't quite choke the rules of your Invisible Sky Fairy or his followers, so I just gotta try to be a decent person anyway, please accept my ungodly offering, even though I'm unworthy."

If being offended makes you feel better, you go right on ahead and pray your way into prosperity.

"But" as a nice person and a devout infidel, I'll be right here, wondering what the hell your problem is, even as I'm buying 11 on-sale kids coats and 14 backpacks in the local Penny's (and filling the backpacks with easy-open nonperishible food) to take to the local heathen scooter-trash to distribute to area kids. I even buy the food from Walmart to maximize the calorie-per-dollar, despite my objections to their business practices.

Actually, I have, in my adult life, turned down several dozen invitations to participate in their religion by telling my fellow volunteers "No, thanks, we're just not at all churchy" without mentioning my opinion of their motives.

However, the OP requested suggestions for a less evasive way to promote the fact that athiests can be decent humans, the simple statement " I do things because I am a decent person, not because god told me to" still seems to me to be a whole lot less "preachy" than the sermons the downtrodden usually hear.

Shall we return our focus to the OP?

[sleestak]

Originally Posted by Skald the Rhymer

Anyway....I've opened this thread for ideas, recommendations, criticisms, and so forth. How can I best use my meager resources? Bear in mind that the primary purpose here is to helpful to people in need, not to convert anybody to atheism. How

:: post snipped:::

A couple of days ago I donated money to a halfway house again. It is enough to cover one week at the house. I don't give homeless people money because a reasonably large number of them will just go out and buy whichever particular drug is destroying their life. Since I can't tell if the homeless guys or gals are addicts, crazy or just having other serious issues giving them money is out because I don't know what they'll use it for.

By giving to the halfway house I am getting an addict/alkie a place to go for a week to start on the path to recovery. The guy who runs the place will only give a bed to someone he believes is serious about getting clean so there is a good chance the money is going to actually help someone get their life back on track.

As a side note, buying a homeless person booze or giving them cash so that they can buy booze is a bad idea. A large number of the homeless are alcoholics/addicts. If they have money the first thing they will do is buy which ever drug gets them loaded.

Slee

[Junior Spaceman]

Originally Posted by j666

Tell me that was irony.

(I want to make a pledge to 'Goodies from the Godless", Skald.)

Nope, there really are people, even those who walk amongst us right here, who believe the only reason anybody ever finds themselves down and out, is because they either didn't work hard enough, or didn't pray hard enough. It makes them feel better about their own lives, because it means that they must be 'good' people because they are not getting punished by being homeless or poor or depressed, as opposed to the obviously 'evil' people who suffer from these afflictions.

Luckily, they will all face tough times, and hopefully will have an existential crisis big enough that they'll implode when it happens, one way or the other. Not that I wish death upon anyone.

ETA: Luckily, if God exists, he'll piss on them from a great height when they do end their stay here, too. Life can sometimes be good that way.

[neutron star]

Originally Posted by Skald the Rhymer

but I can I can make a point of telling people I help that I'm an atheist doing this because it makes me feel good to help others and because I don't want people thinking you must believe in God to be evil.

Wait, aren't you the guy who used to go to AA meetings to find vulnerable chicks so you could purposefully devastate them emotionally, and didn't you say that you would have physically raped those women if you hadn't been too afraid of going to jail and getting a taste of your own medicine?

No offense, but I'm thinking you might not be the best example of a morally upstanding atheist.

[clairobscur]

Honestly, I don't like your concept. Essentially, it's proselytism for atheism under the cover of charitable work. I think you should kept the two things completely separate (joining some "Go Atheism! Go" organization *and* helping/funding a "Let's help the homeless" charity).

[Gleena]

Originally Posted by Rand Rover

Right, because those are the only two options--homeless or perfect.

right back atcha.

Sorry, my mistake, I should only feed homeless guys. Carry on.

[Kalhoun]

When we started volunteering at the shelter, they asked us what church we belong to (there's a network of seven who share the responsibility for the shelter organization in our community) and we told them we don't belong to a church. Honest answer to their question. I don't feel the need to say anything more. Our actions speak for themselves.

[Rand Rover]

Originally Posted by Junior Spaceman

Nope, there really are people, even those who walk amongst us right here, who believe the only reason anybody ever finds themselves down and out, is because they either didn't work hard enough,

So what's your view? That outcomes in life are completely random? That Obama was just as likely to be homeless on the south side of Chicago as the President-elect, so he deserves no credit for being President-elect and would deserve no responsibility for being homeless?

[Kalhoun]

Originally Posted by Rand Rover

So what's your view? That outcomes in life are completely random? That Obama was just as likely to be homeless on the south side of Chicago as the President-elect, so he deserves no credit for being President-elect and would deserve no responsibility for being homeless?

That's not what he said. Not all poverty is linked to random chance, but neither is it solely a fuck-up's dilemma.

[Blalron]

Originally Posted by clairobscur

Honestly, I don't like your concept. Essentially, it's proselytism for atheism under the cover of charitable work. I think you should kept the two things completely separate (joining some "Go Atheism! Go" organization *and* helping/funding a "Let's help the homeless" charity).

It's not exactly atheism I'd like to proseltize; it's critical thinking, which will inevitably lead at least to agnosticism if not weak atheism.

How many charities have "Christian" in their name? It may be a little pushy to actually deliver a sermon on why God doesn't exist, but I see nothing wrong with having "Atheist" or "Secular Humanist" in the organizations name. Maybe if people see atheists doing good things, they won't reflixively ignore whatever somebody says merely because they admit to being atheist.

[Skald the Rhymer]

Originally Posted by neutron star

Wait, aren't you the guy who used to go to AA meetings to find vulnerable chicks so you could purposefully devastate them emotionally, and didn't you say that you would have physically raped those women if you hadn't been too afraid of going to jail and getting a taste of your own medicine?

No offense, but I'm thinking you might not be the best example of a morally upstanding atheist.

In the first place, I don't do that sort of thing any longer. I'm ashamed of the way I used to behave, and I am determined to never do anything of that sort again. I have never written a word attempting to justify my former bad behavior, or implying that it was anything but reprehensible.

In the second place, I never wrote that I would rape a woman. Here's the post you're alluding to if you disbelieve me. Again, I'm not seeking to defend what I did back then; my behavior was reprehensible. But I'll thank you not to accuse me of doing even worse things.

Originally Posted by clairobscur

Honestly, I don't like your concept. Essentially, it's proselytism for atheism under the cover of charitable work. I think you should kept the two things completely separate (joining some "Go Atheism! Go" organization *and* helping/funding a "Let's help the homeless" charity).

I specifically wrote in the OP that I'm not terribly interested in proselytizing. I don't care whether people go to church, so long as they don't force their beliefs on others. Contrariwise, I am interested in rebutting the common belief that atheists are evil and callous, and that only Christians can do good deeds.

Originally Posted by Rand Rover

Rewarding people for making bad choices doesn't help them, it just subsidizes their bad behavior. The way to respond to a homeless person that will help them the most is to just walk on by and not give them a damn thing.

Just out of idle curiosity: are you a Christian? I ask because some of your other posts in other threads have seemed to imply that. If you are, then doesn't Jesus' admonition to take care of the poor contradict your statement? If you're not a Christian, then of course it's not relevant, and I apologize for bringing it up.

By the way, the woman wasn't homeless; she was just broke, and had just left a clinic down the street from the office supply store where I met ehr. If you'll reread the OP, you'll note that I drove her home, and I waited for her to get inside before I drove off, being a good southern boy.

Originally Posted by jsgoddess

It's "I'm an atheist but I can be a nice person, too" versus "I'm an atheist therefore my motives are better."

Actually I do have selfish motives. When I give to someone in need, it makes me feel good. I enjoy it, so I do it whenever I can. That motivates me quite as much as the notion that it is good for the world in general.

[Czarcasm]

[Mod Note]Please take the debate about the effectiveness of charity elsewhere-it's off topic[/Mod Note]

I see a real problem with the idea of atheists not "proselytising" when donating time and/or money for charity, because there is a big machine out there dedicated to promoting the "Charity is a Religious(mostly Christian) Idea" meme.

[tdn]

Originally Posted by Lightnin'

This concept has always bugged me. If you were to say that you have no problem with Jews if they just keep quiet about their religion, people would be calling for your head.

I didn't say deny it, shut up about it, or be ashamed of it. I said don't make a huge deal out of it. If you mention your atheism in the same tone of voice in which you'd mention picking up your dry cleaning or making tacos for dinner, you'll go a lot farther than if you get really strident about it.

Imagine tapping a random stranger on the shoulder and saying "Hey buddy, I'm Jewish. Want to make something of it?"

[jsgoddess]

Originally Posted by MadPansy64

If being offended makes you feel better, you go right on ahead and pray your way into prosperity.

"But" as a nice person and a devout infidel, I'll be right here, wondering what the hell your problem is

I wonder if you have mistaken me for some sort of believer.

[jsgoddess]

Originally Posted by Skald the Rhymer

Actually I do have selfish motives. When I give to someone in need, it makes me feel good. I enjoy it, so I do it whenever I can. That motivates me quite as much as the notion that it is good for the world in general.

I think most of us who give do so for just these selfish reasons. Giving to someone in need benefits me at least as much as it benefits them.

As an atheist, I occasionally feel imposed on by Christians who think they are doing good. I'd hate to see atheists do the same thing even for really good reasons, y'know?

[Sunspace]

Am I the only person who opened the thread in order to find out what 'eleemosynary' meant?

See. this is one thing I admire the Christians and other religious believers for: their willingness to do difficult charitable works. This does not, however, mean in any way that I share their theology.

I think that the number of religious charitable givers might be partly a result of overall religious numbers though.

Here in North America, there are many Christians, and so the small percentage who are willing to do such works adds up to a lot of people. There are not so many Neo-pagans, and so Neo-pagan charities are thin on the ground. Doesn't necessarily imply that Neo-pagans are less likely to give. That would have to be established from a study of their beliefs and their habits on a per-person basis.

I think it would be good to have more non-Christian helping organizations visible on the streets; it would break that meme that 'only Christians can be charitable', which is not true.

[Rand Rover]

Skald, I'm an atheist.

[Malthus]

I'm not a believer, but I do think that Moses Maimonides had the right idea about charity - namely, that the best form of charity (aside from helping someone to become genuinely self-sufficient) is where the giver does not exault him or herself by making themselves (or their cause or whatever) known, and the receiver is not humilated by making the fact that they are recieving charity known.

... charity is one in which the benefactor has no knowledge of the recipient and the latter has no knowledge of the individual source of charity—matan b’seter [“giving in secret”]. This is practicing the mitzvah of charity for the sake of the mitzvah [since the benefactor has no benefit, social or egoistical]. Such charity is like the courtyard in the [ancient] Temple where the righteous used to place their donations secretly and the poor would benefit from them in secret. Similar to this secret courtyard is the act of one who puts his money into the charity box [or funds].

http://www.myjewishlearning.com/dail...ht_Degrees.htm

To my mind this applies to religious and non-religious alike. Giving for the sake of raising your status (or the status of the group or sect to which you belong) is a lesser form, not as worthy as one who gives without expectation of such reward.

[Skald the Rhymer]

Originally Posted by Sunspace

Am I the only person who opened the thread in order to find out what 'eleemosynary' meant?

What's really sad is that was actually the first one that came to mind. That, allied with the fact that I am still not entirely certain what quarterbacks do, is the heart of my contention that I am the board's most egregious geek.

Originally Posted by Malthus

I'm not a believer, but I do think that Moses Maimonides had the right idea about charity - namely, that the best form of charity (aside from helping someone to become genuinely self-sufficient) is where the giver does not exault him or herself by making themselves (or their cause or whatever) known, and the receiver is not humilated by making the fact that they are recieving charity known.

To my mind this applies to religious and non-religious alike. Giving for the sake of raising your status (or the status of the group or sect to which you belong) is a lesser form, not as worthy as one who gives without expectation of such reward.

Please note that I explicitly said in the OP that rehabilitating the unfairly bad reputations of atheists is secondary. I was soliciting opinions on how to most effectively be charitable, not on how to spread the gospel of atheism.

That said I have a problem with Maimonides' thesis as quoted above. I think all acts are basically selfish. When I help strangers, anonymously or otherwise, it's as much because I enjoy doing so as for any other reason. I'd argue that the practicioners of matan b’seter are doing likewise.

But that's another thread.

[jali]

I give loans through http://www.kiva.org/. I'm a member of a non-Christian group there - you don't have to join a group; you can just give to any of the entrepreneurs on the planet who have signed up.

If I get a holiday bonus, I'll do another loan or two.

I agree that giving is selfish - I feel much better after I give.

[jsgoddess]

Originally Posted by jali

I give loans through http://www.kiva.org/. I'm a member of a non-Christian group there - you don't have to join a group; you can just give to any of the entrepreneurs on the planet who have signed up.

jali, Kiva looks fascinating. I'd be interested in any details you're willing to share about how the loans have worked for you, etc.

[jali]

This is the group I joined (I just like the name) Kiva Lending Team: Atheists, Agnostics, Skeptics, Freethinkers, Secular Humanists and the Non-Religious. I'm also a member of the Obama group.

My loan went to a fishing group in Uganda. They've recieved their loan and should begin payback soon. I'm not too worried since I want to help, so a return of the money isn't important to me as an individual - just to show that they're succeeding and so that others are encouraged to give. I chose the group from the front page that day.

I'll probably try to eventually give to groups on all the continents. I need to feel that I'm doing something and pooling money to help people who are really trying to improve their lives makes sense to me.

[ratatoskK]

I think a lot of you are being too hard on Skald. He's not trying to make a big deal of publicizing how great atheists are, or giving only if it's part of publicizing our atheism. He's asking that if we're going to give anyhow, is there a way to let people know that it was from an atheist, to show that we aren't evil and that we care about people. Religious people have their way of donating or doing work for overtly religious charities. Is there an atheist charity out there somewhere?

[Northern Piper]

Originally Posted by Sunspace

Am I the only person who opened the thread in order to find out what 'eleemosynary' meant?

C'mon, Sunspace, you just have to read the Constitution Act, 1867:

Subjects of exclusive Provincial Legislation 92. In each Province the Legislature may exclusively make Laws in relation to Matters coming within the Classes of Subjects next hereinafter enumerated; that is to say,
...
7. The Establishment, Maintenance, and Management of Hospitals, Asylums, Charities, and Eleemosynary Institutions in and for the Province, other than Marine Hospitals.

[Malthus]

Originally Posted by Skald the Rhymer

Please note that I explicitly said in the OP that rehabilitating the unfairly bad reputations of atheists is secondary. I was soliciting opinions on how to most effectively be charitable, not on how to spread the gospel of atheism.

That said I have a problem with Maimonides' thesis as quoted above. I think all acts are basically selfish. When I help strangers, anonymously or otherwise, it's as much because I enjoy doing so as for any other reason. I'd argue that the practicioners of matan b’seter are doing likewise.

But that's another thread.

Does this mean you believe that all acts are inherently just as "selfish"? If not, there is a hierarchy of selfishness if you like - some are more so than others - and this, more than anything, is what Miamonides is discussing.

To my mind it is clearly more "selfish" (or at least in bad taste and less worthy) to make a receipient of charity beg and crawl at your feet in gratitude and post a big sign with your name on it celebrating your benevolence [not that I'm suggesting you would do that - but that is the sort of thing Maimonides was against]. Getting that righteous glow on may indeed be *part* of the reason one gives, but there is also the notion of fulfilling one's duties to others. In any event, he wasn't interested in whether people were inwardly 'selfish" or not, but in social behaviour - a very different thing.

Note I'm not singling out atheists for a Maimonides reminder - to my mind it is just as much contrary to his hierarchy to plaster the name of a religion all over a charity (and far, far more common).

[Skald the Rhymer]

Originally Posted by Malthus

Does this mean you believe that all acts are inherently just as "selfish"? If not, there is a hierarchy of selfishness if you like - some are more so than others - and this, more than anything, is what Miamonides is discussing.

I'll agree that there's a hierarchy of selfishness, and some acts are so low on it that they're all but altrustic.