Not sure if this is an IMHO or a GD thread. Mods, do as you please.
I am an atheist, a fairly ardent one with next to no doubt about my beliefs in this area, but I am also poor and, at the moment, disabled due to an accident a month ago.
Due to the accident being the other person’s fault, I have been getting free healthcare, including someone that comes by periodically to draw my blood to test it to make sure my blood thinners are working out. Being polite, I’ve talked to her the couple times she’s been here and, apparently, at some point I told her that I was going to sell my bike to try to buy a microwave.
Fast forward a couple weeks to today and I got a call from her wanting to know if it would be okay with me if she and her pastor came by to give me one that they had gotten as a donation. A turkey too, since it’s the holidays.
I told her I wasn’t really sure (due to my atheism, which she’s unaware of) and that I would call her back tomorrow with a decision.
I’m not a very moral person and would actually consider myself somewhere in the grey area of amorality but this is a sticky spot for me for some reason… it just feels weird for me to accept a donation from these people (who, at least in the case of the nurse, is a genuinely nice person) due to our polar opposite spiritual views. I would really like to take it as I really do need a microwave (and I’ve lost the receipt to the bike so I can’t take it back anyway) and have been wanting some turkey for a week now since I missed Thanksgiving, but is it okay?
If there aren’t strings attached, there aren’t. Tell them that you don’t want to take their gifts under false pretences. Tell them your situation. Let them decide.
They will probably feel better about giving a heathen a microwave than they would feel to have their gifts turned away.
Maybe you don’t believe in God, but do you believe in something like karma?
The Amish allow “heathen” outsiders to help with their barn raisings because they believe that they should allow other people the chance to do good, because allowing people to do that is good (if that makes sense).
I doubt you would withhold help from someone just because of their beliefs, so I don’t see the point in refusing help. If you had a flat tire at night and the only person that stopped to help had a bumper sticker on their car that said something like “Card-Carrying Member of the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy,” would you tell 'em to go away? Good is good, regardless of the giver and the receiver. Christians aresupposed to do stuff like this. Let them!
So yes, hon, it’s okay to take the microwave and the turkey. It’s not hypocritical. Someday you’ll be able to pay it forward.
Call the girl and tell her that yes, you’ll take it, but be up front and tell her that you’re an atheist and you are NOT interested in church, etc. If they withdraw the offer, they’re jerks. They might end up sticking a tract in a grocery bag or something, but don’t take that as a diss on your beliefs or anything. They’re just trying to do the other thing Christians are supposed to do: spread the Gospel. Sure, you’re an atheist and probably will stay that way, but they’ve gotta at least try, even though you’ll probably throw it away after they leave
I am an atheist, but I have donated to a local food bank that happens to be run through a church. The food bank has a solid reputation for keeping religion out of the program and is the most effective way for me to help out families in my community. The church donates space and utilities, and businesses as well as a variety of other churches in the community contribute in-kind as well. Because of this, 100% of monetary donations go to families.
In many cases like this, these charities were spearheaded by churches, but have become truly a community effort. I would not think that anyone accepting charity from them was indebted to a church in any way.
That said, I’m not familiar with the idea of having a pastor visit you in your home to deliver the items. That would make me a bit more nervous that it is not given freely, but with some expectation to persuade you in some manner. However, there are many religious traditions I’m not familiar with, and this may be more common that I’m aware.
My wife works for a well known religious charitable organization that sets no religious conditions whatever on how gifts and services are distributed. I doubt you’re going to find may Christian churches or organizations who would say out loud that they think charity should only be for Christians.
However…
Just to insure that there are no misunderstandings I would suggest that you come clean, tell them with as much respect as you can muster that you are not a believer, that you are not likely to become a believer and that you do not want to accept any gifts under false pretenses or with any religious conditions…BUT…if they still want to give those rewards to an atheist that you are one atheist who would be eternally grateful and glad of their friendship.
I’m guessing they won’t be as put off as you might expect.
Be on the lookout for conversion attempts down the line, though.
Well… I’m not sure what I’d say if I offered someone such a generous gift, and their response was that they would think about it. I know I would be taken aback. She must be some kind of sweetheart if she didn’t hang up on you.
The lady listened to you — which in and of itself is a wonderment these days — carefully enough to hear your expression of need. She cared enough about you to remember it. She took it upon herself to go to work trying to find you a microwave, setting aside whatever else she might have done otherwise. She made arrangements so that you didn’t even have to get up from your couch to take possession of it, except to answer the door. And your overriding anxiety is that she or her pastor might say something about Jesus?
I respect your atheism, but I submit that this has nothing to do with faith or lack of it. The very least you could do, if it came to that, is accept the kindness graciously and listen to a five or ten minute witness. As far as I’m concerned, you have something to learn from those good people. They’re giving you something you need so badly, that you’re willing to sell your bike to get it. You should be at least half as gracious, and give them some attention and respect.
When she left me the voicemail on my phone, she repeatedly stated that she would do this if it were okay with me and repeated those statements when I called her. She obviously did not expect me to jump up and down (couldn’t do that with my leg anyway) and thank her for her charity and, honestly, if she had, I wouldn’t have even had to think about it and would have told her “No thank you” immediately.
No. It’s about the possible hypocrisy of accepting a donation from someone whose opinions I disagree so strongly with.
Please don’t put words in my mouth.
If I accept this, and after reading this thread and its replies, I most likely will, I will have no problem listening to the pastor witness, nor will I take issue with them inviting me to church, which I fully expect. I might even take them up on it depending on how sincere he seems.
I might have an issue with organized religion but I brook no hostility towards those that follow it except extremists and I do not appreciate you implying otherwise.
Having been born and raised in Tennessee, I’m used to witnessing and proselytizing and it doesn’t bother me if the people doing so are inoffensive, earnest, and I sense no hidden agendas.
If accepting the microwave and turkey requires I have to listen to the pastor speak to me about Christ for fifteen minutes, I’ll listen politely and thank him for his time. I’ve done so countless times in the past and for no other reason than simple politeness. At least in this situation, I will be gaining something out of it.
Listening to the nurse, it sounds like he’s just interested in meeting me and is responsible for keeping her calling when she could never get ahold of me (I’m always online and am on dial-up). He just sounds like a really nice guy that’s excited to help someone in need.
I don’t believe in it but I do believe it, like the Golden Rule, is a nice concept to follow. When bad luck befalls me, I tend to look at things shouldn’t have done in the past and think of it as balancing the scales, so to speak.
That’s the best way of looking at it I’ve seen. Thanks.
Thank you. I’m coping well as the nurse and her pastor are not the only people to help me out while recuperating. I’ve also had help from at least a dozen Dopers and maybe double that. It’s very touching.
I’ve decided I’m going to take it based on your advice and everyone else’s. They want to help and I need it so it doesn’t make much sense to hurt myself and possibly their feelings, even if it still feels a little hypocritical on my part.
Voicemail? Your OP made it sound like a phone conversation. You said you " got a call from her wanting to know if it would be okay with me" and that you “told her I wasn’t really sure”. At any rate, I don’t know whether she had any expectations or not, but you seem to. Why this is even a dilemma is quite frankly baffling. It’s one of those Marsha Brady worst-mess-I’ve-ever-gotten-myself-into moments.
They’re my words, not yours. When I say what I think it’s about, I’m not speaking on your behalf but on my own. Did you think I revolve around you or something? I am quite capable of holding my own opinions even when they differ from yours. Your OP asked — and I quoted in my response — “What’re your views?”. These are my views. This is Great Debates, and I am debating whether your perceptions are askew. I cannot fathom why someone thinks he cannot accept charity from someone just because, as you put it, they have opinions with which you strongly disagree. It just impresses me as a rather bizarre litmus test.
Lucky for you, I reckon, that you passed *their * sincerity test. I hope you screen them as generously as they didn’t screen you. You haven’t even been honest with them and told them that you’re an atheist who basically has no intention of ever changing his mind, or as you put it “a fairly ardent one with next to no doubt about my beliefs in this area”. Why string them along with promises to visit their church? Just accept the stuff or reject the stuff, and be yourself about it.
You should have thought of that before publicly asking people for their views in a debate forum. If you are not prepared to debate your position, and are not willing to allow for dissenting views, you should go to Humble Opinions or something. But even there, you should better formulate your position, whatever it may be.
In 1995 I had a Traumatic Brain Injury in an automobile accident. One morning I got up to go to work and suddenly it was a month later and everything that I knew no longer existed. I learned that when you have to walk with your hand out, you take what you need from wherever you can get it and try to maintain as much diginity as you can. You hope that one day you can sustain yourself. And when you can, you give back, generously!!! Deeds, money, whatever!!!
