Public swimming baths, fire evacuation, subzero weather.

[Mangetout]

I took my kids swimming yesterday and near the end of our session, the emergency alarm sounded.

We were all asked to get out of the water, which we did. In this case, the emergency was a minor injury in the diving pool - and I suppose the procedure is to get everyone out of the water so that all the guards can be free to help with the incident.

But it got me wondering... suppose that had been a fire alarm?

The building has a substantial timber roof, spanning the entire structure.
We were all in our swimsuits, and wet.
The outdoor temperature was minus 4 centigrade.

Evacuating everyone outdoors in these circumstances would pose some quite serious risks - particularly to small children - although obviously there would be a need to get people away from a fire.

Do public swimming pools in places that experience cold winter weather generally have plans in place to deal with this quandary? If so, what do such plans consist of?

[Waffle Decider]

I don't have an answer for swimming pool.

However, when I was in high school in New Hampshire, the fire alarm went off one winter day. We were evacuated outside. I didn't have my coat with me because it was in the locker in the hallway somewhere else in the building. Let me tell you, that was unpleasant.

[FarmerChick]

My youngest son was involved in a minor accident in a nasty winter storm. It was only a couple miles outside of town and I had a 4 wheel drive vehicle so I went and got him. When I got there the firemen had 6 or 8 people inside the fire truck with blankets around them to keep them warm. They were going to drive the people who had no way of getting back into town with them. I was actually surprised how roomy it was in there.

So I guess in a pinch, if they absolutely had to evacuate the building, they could put people in the fire trucks until ambulances and or ambulance buses arrived.

[Xema]

Originally Posted by Mangetout

Evacuating everyone outdoors in these circumstances would pose some quite serious risks - particularly to small children

I'm not sure the risks are notably higher for small children. I understand, for example, that it's common for the very young to be the last survivors found in the rubble of buildings damaged by earthquake.

[Mangetout]

Smaller body mass means - I think - they'll chill faster than adults.

[si_blakely]

Originally Posted by Waffle Decider

However, when I was in high school in New Hampshire, the fire alarm went off one winter day. We were evacuated outside. I didn't have my coat with me because it was in the locker in the hallway somewhere else in the building. Let me tell you, that was unpleasant.

We had a fire alarm at work a few weeks ago. It was bitterly cold outside, and when the alarm went off, I had just got changed into shorts and a tee-shirt for a run. I had to evacuate the building whilst bare-footed, put my shoes on once outside, and then decided to just go for my run. It was the easiest way to stay warm, and avoid the comments about my legs from my work colleagues.

Si

[Alex_Dubinsky]

In the case of a typical fire, can't people just stay near the exits but inside? Much less in the case of a typical fire alarm.

I have a feeling this suggestion will be met with be met with more hatred than heliocentrism. (If not by you guys on the boards, then certainly by the people in rl in charge of such things.)

[Waffle Decider]

Originally Posted by Alex_Dubinsky

In the case of a typical fire, can't people just stay near the exits but inside? Much less in the case of a typical fire alarm.

I have a feeling this suggestion will be met with be met with more hatred than heliocentrism. (If not by you guys on the boards, then certainly by the people in rl in charge of such things.)

I guess it depends on how many people are in the building. If it is a crowded building, having everyone hanging around the exits isn't going to work too well.

[Joey P]

Originally Posted by Xema

I'm not sure the risks are notably higher for small children. I understand, for example, that it's common for the very young to be the last survivors found in the rubble of buildings damaged by earthquake.

Why would that have anything to do with hypothermia? I would think that would have more to do with their small bodies being less likely to get stuck in the rubble.

[Xema]

Originally Posted by Joey P

I would think that would have more to do with their small bodies being less likely to get stuck in the rubble.

They were stuck in the rubble - but they survived longer than the stuck adults.

[St. Urho]

Originally Posted by Mangetout

Smaller body mass means - I think - they'll chill faster than adults.

Kids have a greater surface area/mass ratio, which means they lose heat faster.

From the Merck Manual

The very young have similarly diminished mobility and communication and have an increased surface area/mass ratio, which enhances heat loss.

[Quartz]

Originally Posted by si_blakely

We had a fire alarm at work a few weeks ago. It was bitterly cold outside, and when the alarm went off, I had just got changed into shorts and a tee-shirt for a run. I had to evacuate the building whilst bare-footed, put my shoes on once outside, and then decided to just go for my run. It was the easiest way to stay warm, and avoid the comments about my legs from my work colleagues.

This was incredibly foolish. If it had been a real fire and they'd taken a roll call you'd have turned up as missing and they would have sent a fireman in to locate you. Firemen have died doing this.

[Shagnasty]

Originally Posted by Quartz

This was incredibly foolish. If it had been a real fire and they'd taken a roll call you'd have turned up as missing and they would have sent a fireman in to locate you. Firemen have died doing this.

You don't know the circumstances. I work in a building with 1300 people (mostly professionals) and we come and go as we please plus there are a huge number of emergency exits. There is no way to do a role call so I would have just left as well if I were in that situation. All they do during fire drills is sweep the building which isn't hard because most of it is a large, open floor plan.

[Mangetout]

Si isn't a dumbass, I'm betting he reported present at the muster point, then went for a run.

[neuroman]

Originally Posted by Quartz

This was incredibly foolish. If it had been a real fire and they'd taken a roll call you'd have turned up as missing and they would have sent a fireman in to locate you. Firemen have died doing this.

Please provide a cite to at least one occurence of a fireman dying after going into an office building after someone who skipped a "roll call."

[PaulParkhead]

Originally Posted by Quartz

This was incredibly foolish. If it had been a real fire and they'd taken a roll call you'd have turned up as missing and they would have sent a fireman in to locate you. Firemen have died doing this.

I used to be a fire officer at a large-ish office in London. That doesn't make me any sort of expert, of course, I was trained only in clearing everyone from the building and a few very basic firefighting procedures, like when to use and not use an extinguisher.

Anyhow, with potentially 800 people in the building, no-one took a roll call. We would check that the floor was clear, then report to the senior fire officer: "Eighth floor is clear!" That person would tell the firefighters. Of course, if someone said "John Smith was with us, but we haven't seen him since flames erupted from the windows" then that would be different. But there's no way we could take a register of every single person who may or may not have been inside.

[Snnipe 70E]

Originally Posted by neuroman

Please provide a cite to at least one occurence of a fireman dying after going into an office building after someone who skipped a "roll call."

I can not give specifics, but durring my fire safety director class it was stressed by by the teacher to get an accurate count on people. According to him several firemen die every year going into buildings to retreave people who were not there. He was a former Chief of the SFFD.

[Shagnasty]

Originally Posted by Snnipe 70E

I can not give specifics, but durring my fire safety director class it was stressed by by the teacher to get an accurate count on people. According to him several firemen die every year going into buildings to retreave people who were not there. He was a former Chief of the SFFD.

That would be impossible where I work and with many companies that I have worked for in the past or I am familiar with. I hardly ever know where my coworkers are or even my boss and vice versa and we like to keep it that way unless there is a true emergency and even that might take an hour to respond to. There is no need for firefighters to get concerned if one of us is missing for a few minutes.

[Really Not All That Bright]

IIRC, Cecil did a bit a while back about how being wet won't make you any more likely to catch a cold, but I can't find it.

[Waffle Decider]

Originally Posted by Really Not All That Bright

IIRC, Cecil did a bit a while back about how being wet won't make you any more likely to catch a cold, but I can't find it.

Perhaps it won't make you more likely to catch an infection. However, being wet definitely will cause your body to cool down and cause hypothermia much more quickly than a dry body. That is how sweating works, afterall.

[Tamex]

I was once forced to evacuate a college residence hall during my shower. I was wearing a bathrobe, fortunately. It was October, so the weather wasn't that cold, but they eventually corralled us into the dining area of a neighboring residence hall while they checked out the building. If there is a large building nearby, perhaps they would send everyone over there for shelter.

[Hilarity N. Suze]

I have posted this before, but I had some details wrong (I said it was a fire drill, but it was actually a case where the high school chem lab had blown up).

My son and his entire swimming class had just gotten out of the pool and were heading for the showers when the alarm went off. They were allowed about 10 seconds to grab what they could--shoes, sweatshirts, etc.--before going outside and following procedures. It was really cold, under 20 degrees F, and spitting snow. Of course they all had wet hair.

At the time, they all thought--including the PE teacher--that it was just a drill, but the rule is that you go, even if it's just a drill. In fact it took the fire dept. awhile to make sure all chemicals, etc. had been contained, and eventually the kids were dismissed for the day. They did let some of the back inside, depending on where their lockers were (i.e., not close to the chemistry room). By the time they went back inside some of the kids had frozen hair! They were in better shape than a couple of people in the chem lab, though. (One girl, a senior, had an eye injury that prevented her from reading for six weeks, a hard thing to deal with when you're a college-bound senior. A few in the class were treated for smoke inhalation. The chemistry teacher lost part of his hand, and his job.)

We were discussing this in our family about a year ago, when my youngest got sent outside without his coat, three times, in the worst weather we had all year. Only in his case it WAS just a drill. Or a malfunction. Or three malfunctions. But at least he hadn't just gotten out of the pool.

Personally I'd rather stay inside and get roasted.

[Jenaroph]

When I was in high school my P.E. class had just hopped into the pool when there was a short announcement over the PA, and the teacher called us all out, told us to go back to the locker rooms and that we had one minute to throw our clothes over our wet suits and head outside because there was a bomb threat. In January, in Michigan. That we found out later he'd known was probably coming because the announcement was a code word that had apparently been set that morning. We huddled together with our damp towels spread out to block the wind and looked around at the other students who'd been allowed to go back to their lockers and grab their coats first. It couldn't have taken more than 15 minutes before we got the all clear, but it sure seemed longer.

It was piss-poor planning on a lot of people's parts in retrospect - if it was a credible bomb threat when the phone call came in that morning, why did they let students in the building in the first place instead of waiting till 2nd hour to evacuate? And why, if it was suddenly important to evacuate, would you allow students to go back to their lockers, located all over the building? And dangit, why did our gym teacher make us get in the pool instead of changing plans for that day, knowing we might have to go outside soaking wet in 20 degree weather?

This was 1988, before Columbine and the handful of other school shootings drove security concerns to the forefront. The whole incident was shrugged off, but if it happened nowadays I suspect there'd be at least a few screaming parents.

[Danalan]

If it was a real fire, you'd have plenty of heat. Just don't get too close.

[si_blakely]

Originally Posted by Quartz

This was incredibly foolish. If it had been a real fire and they'd taken a roll call you'd have turned up as missing and they would have sent a fireman in to locate you. Firemen have died doing this.

No names, no pack drill. Seriously. The fire wardens check that the buildings are clear, but that is it. I wouldn't have gone if they were checking people off.

And it was not a drill, but it wasn't a fire, either. Some building works triggered the smoke alarms 3 or four times over the course of a few days. We got really fed up.

Si

[si_blakely]

I showed my wife this.

Originally Posted by Mangetout

Si isn't a dumbass, ...

She says "cite..."



Si

[Xema]

Originally Posted by St. Urho

Kids have a greater surface area/mass ratio, which means they lose heat faster.

True. They also have body fat percentages higher than adults, which allows them to cope with higher heat loss.

[Quartz]

Originally Posted by neuroman

Please provide a cite to at least one occurence of a fireman dying after going into an office building after someone who skipped a "roll call."

The guy who told me was a fire safety instructor and retired senior fireman. The incident was related during my fire warden training course.

[Hampshire]

Originally Posted by Alex_Dubinsky

In the case of a typical fire, can't people just stay near the exits but inside? Much less in the case of a typical fire alarm.

It's January in Minnesota and I often take my toddler to the community center to go swimming. What you describe is exactly what I would do in an actual fire or an alarm. Stand near the exit until I feel we are actually in danger.

[Guinastasia]

Originally Posted by Waffle Decider

Perhaps it won't make you more likely to catch an infection. However, being wet definitely will cause your body to cool down and cause hypothermia much more quickly than a dry body. That is how sweating works, afterall.

Wouldn't you have to worry about frostbite as well?

[Santo Rugger]

Originally Posted by Xema

True. They also have body fat percentages higher than adults, which allows them to cope with higher heat loss.

Really? I thought fat in humans was to store energy, not to hold in heat. It was my understanding that a muscular person can maintain body heat better than a fat person, due to lower circulation in fat, and the ability to flex the muscles (shiver). Isn't blubber a different type of fat than that in humans?

[Guinastasia]

It IS to store energy-but it also happens to hold heat at the same time.

[elfkin477]

Originally Posted by Shagnasty

That would be impossible where I work and with many companies that I have worked for in the past or I am familiar with. I hardly ever know where my coworkers are or even my boss and vice versa and we like to keep it that way unless there is a true emergency and even that might take an hour to respond to. There is no need for firefighters to get concerned if one of us is missing for a few minutes.

Employers aren't legally required to have a roll call procedure? They do a roll call during each and every fire drill where I work, and there are a few hundred people in the building most of the time. When we were in another building (it used to be a mill building and housed dozens of businesses) there really was a relatively minor fire a few years back, and all the other businesses were taking roll then too, so I figured everyone must need to.

[Santo Rugger]

My point is that muscle can actually generate heat, while fat cannot.

[the Lady]

I am a fire warden for my floor in an office tower - we are required to check each office (and close the door to show it's been done) and check the bathrooms, then call down to security to indicate the floor is clear before heading down the stairs ourselves.
No one has any way of knowing where anyone is on any given day - all you can check is that there's no one left on the floor.

[Hampshire]

Originally Posted by elfkin477

Employers aren't legally required to have a roll call procedure? They do a roll call during each and every fire drill where I work, and there are a few hundred people in the building most of the time. When we were in another building (it used to be a mill building and housed dozens of businesses) there really was a relatively minor fire a few years back, and all the other businesses were taking roll then too, so I figured everyone must need to.

How do they keep track of who's coming and going? Do you sign in/out, use a badge reader, etc? When there is a fire alarm do they get a real time log of who's supposedly on the premises?