I started a thread in GQ regarding the legality of a CCW permit holder carrying a concealed weapon on another person’s private residential property in another state. Airman Doors pointed out that in addition to the legal issue, there is an ethical one as well.
In my original thread, I stated that Bob lives in PA and holds a CCW permit for PA (assumed). Bob frequently visits Larry’s house, in Maryland, for parties and other social occasions. Larry recently learned that every time Bob has visited in the last several years, Bob has been carrying.
Even assuming that Bob’s actions are legal, are they ethical? Are property owners entitled to the expectation that visitors will be unarmed? If one is uncomfortable with firearms in their house, should they be obligated to inform every guest of the “house rules”?
I think the threshhold issue is the legal one. (I would!)
In other words, if the behavior is legal, then there’s nothing inherently unethical about it; people are entitled to assume you’re not breaking the law, but beyond that, I don’t see any ethical issue in play.
All other things being equal.
Obviously, the addition of other facts may change this basic analysis. If your host is the regional director of the Brady Center, for example, then you can make an inference that he might oppose the action and at least advise him that you’re carrying. But on a neutral playing field, with a generic host in a generic state, my view is that if it’s legal, there’s no additional ethical burden to be met.
If a friend of ours was carrying a gun in our house/on my property, they’d be asked to leave or take it back out to their car. If they gave us any shit about our “no guns allowed in mi casa” policy, it’s doubtful they’d be a friend much longer.
Most of our real friends are fully aware of our feelings about having a gun in our home; it would be completely disrespectful and unethical, as well as being a breach of personal trust, for 'em to be packing heat in my family’s home.
Only if they are in a locale where CCW is so far out of the bounds of normal as to be safely discounted. So, if I were in say the UK, I’d expect my guests to not have guns, even if it is slightly possible one of them might actually legally be packing. But in a US state with CCW? I don’t think so.
If I had a gun, I wouldn’t wear it to a private home if I knew the owner was not OK with them. But the onus is on the owner to let me know that, although you could argue that membership in a particular grouping makes such objection implied, like say outright hippies or Bricker’s example. But you never can tell. I’m the most resolute kind of pacifist, and I have no objection to other people carrying guns (or using them myself for hunting and targets.) IMO, unless I’ve specifically asked you not to, then you’re within your ethical right to carry - I see wearing a weapon as a privacy thing - you’re as entitled to choose to wear a gun as you are to choose what underwear to wear, if any. Of course, I’m also entitled to ask you to leave if I object, and you are ethically bound to comply. But just wearing a gun is not in and of itself an ethics violation to me. It’s when you pull that sucker out and blow away the guy who snagged the last of the tonic water that it becomes so.
But I think the OP’s question is - would it be unethical for someone else (not a real friend) to assume its OK to wear their 9 in the sock, if they were, say, a friend-of-a-friend coming for a BBQ? Of course, no-one’s going to argue that you don’t have the right to tell them to leave when you find out, but have they wronged you just by carrying?
It has nothing to do with U.S. law, or with guns, because as a matter of ethics it predates both. Carrying a concealed weapon into another man’s home would have been considered an act or aggression - and responded to in kind - in virtually every culture throughout human history. It’s a violation of the rules of hospitality, which are pretty much the oldest rules around.
It is certainly beyond impolite not to inform your host that you are armed. I believe that it is unethical, yes, as a guest, and a responsible gun owner, you have a positive duty to inform the person on whose private property you are, of any unusual events that might be less than obvious.
If carring and entering a home of a friend who also carried and had guns all over the place, it might not need to come up for discussion.
But if carring and you enter a house with no signs or knowledge of the home owners oppion of guns if should be brought up for clarification.
If I became aware of someone carring in my home I would ask him to put the gun in a safe place NOW. If he refused he would be told to leave NOW. If he refused I would pick up the phone dial 911 and explain that I have someone in my house with a gun who has refused to leave.
People with ethics would never put someone else in this position.
If the home owner knows this and that you are carring that is a different question. If I had an off duty cop at my house for a BBQ and get together I would expect him to safely put the gun away. And if I did not know lhim well enough to knowl hew was carring I would expect him to ask the question.
I believe it is entirely ethical to carry and not inform, PROVIDED such carrying is legal in that circumstance. As I’ve posted numerous times before, if the State legislature, the State Attorney General, the County District Attorney, the Chief of Police, the Sheriff, the FBI (who do the background checks), and my concealed carry firearms instructor all believe that it is legal and lawful for me to be able to exercise the right to carry my concealed firearm for my own lawful purposes, really, most other folks don’t have much of a leg to stand on to tell me I cannot.
I believe, however, that if asked directly by a friend, it is ethical to be honest and truthful, and tell them you are carrying.
(Kansas law here) If you are on your friend’s private property and they tell you they do not want you to carry concealed, then it is ethical to cease carrying concealed out of respect for them in their private property (not to mention that they can have you evicted for trespassing if they tell you to leave and you refuse to do so.)
If I am with them in a public place, where it is lawful for me to carry, and a friend I’m with tells me they’re uncomfortable with me carrying and they don’t want me to do so, then it would make me seriously question my friendship with them. I probably would not go in public places with them out of general principles.
Let’s not forget that the hypothetical friend here should not know you’re carrying unless you tell them - that’s the whole point of the “concealed” part of the legislation. And unless your friend is in the habit of grilling everyone who walks into their house or does anything with them in public with questions like “You don’t have a gun, do you? Do you? Please say no!”, the whole question is very unlikely to come up.
No, it does not change. Being armed in someone else’s house without their knowledge is just plain rude. And unethical. If one’s home is their castle, carrying unknown weapons within is perilously close to assaulting it.
It might be enough to get you shot in Texas.
The point where it changes is that an off-duty cop is expected to be armed. Thus, informing the owner that you’re a cop, if off-duty, is sufficient warning.
Edit: Una, if asked by a friend, yes. But what if you’re on the property and not someone’s friend? Let’s say that you went to your friend’s house, and they know you’re armed. And your friend says, you have to see Bill’s garden, and drags you to Bill’s house. I think you have the responsibility to inform Bill, who doesn’t know you from Eve.
Why? I’m not only not a threat to them, I’m not threatening them, and I’ve been proven via the law, the background checks, the sign-offs, approvals, etc. listed above that the Law and the State consider me to be a trusted person to carry. Why must I tell them?
Let’s extend that to businesses - should one go up to the owner of every single business they patronize to inform them they’re carrying? We can throw out that it’s a “public place”, but it’s still their legal property. And ask any mom-and-pop store owner if they don’t consider their shop, “public place” it may be, to be as near and dear to them as their own home.
How about other things - are you required to announce to friends that you have a pocket knife? Why not? A knife is a weapon, so why is a lawfully carried gun disrespectful, but not a knife? Or does the blade length matter? What if the gun is in a car parked on their driveway?
Should you also tell all your friends and neighbors your criminal background record and history? How about drug and alcohol use? After all, who’s more likely to be a threat - a lawful CCW holder legally carrying, or a drug user, ex-con, domestic batterer, or stabbin’ hobo? OK, I admit, one of those examples is thrown in for humour…
Walking mentally through the real-world logistics of fairness, it seems pretty silly for a lawful, legal, licensed and permitted CCW holder to go announcing or even quietly informing every person whose home they enter that they’re carrying a weapon.
Note I never advocate lying to someone who asks, nor advocate refusing to politely and cheerfully get off their property if they ask you to. But I see no reason why I should violate my own privacy.
It’s possible neither of us will ever convince the other of our side.
What else do you have the responsibility to inform Bill of? Are you carrying a knife? That you have a communicable disease? That you are carrying medical marijuana?
I’m not disagreeing with you, but I’m interested in how you decide what you have the responsibility to inform someone of. I could lean either way on the concealed gun issue.
If it’s unethical to carry a concealed weapon on another’s private property without their knowledge, is it also unethical to carry a concealed on your own property without the knowledge of your guests?
Is the concept of private property ethical? Yes most was bought from someone, but it started somewhere, someone claimed land that they did not own, nor did they have any right to it (except for land given by God to His people as stated in scriptures). So is private property something that has to be ethically honored at all?
Aw, c’mon. That’s just silly. Are you saying I could walk into your house and do whatever I please and then get away with it by saying it’s not your land because it belonged to the Indians 300 years ago? How fast would that get me a punch in the nose?
There seems to be an implicit assumption here that someone carrying a concealed weapon has bad intentions. Why?
Do you think that if a person carries a weapon into a business or a public park that they’re acting aggressively?
I’m a little torn on this issue. I respect a homeowner’s right to set any conditions or rules they wish on the behavior of people in their home.
On the other hand, practically it can usually only lead to bad things. If someone freaks out because someone who means them no harm and is carrying legally is near them, what benefit does that have to anyone? It doesn’t make the homeowner any safer - the gun was going to stay concealed and unused anyway. It only creates a conflict for really no reason.
The other issue as noted is where is the line drawn? What makes guns special as far as weapons go? Do people carrying pocket knives need to inform homeowners of what they’re carrying?
It’s best that ideally no one knows that you’re carrying. During CCW training, I was told not to tell anyone I was carrying unless it was absolutely necesary for some reason. An example the instructor gave was - let’s say you’re in a place that’s getting robbed but in your best judgement the way to go is to lay low and let it go. What if your friend, who knows you’re carrying, foolishly nods at you and says “hey, do something”?
Most of my friends knew I had a license and that I carried sometimes but not specifically when or where. It didn’t make anyone uncomfortable at all because they knew I meant them no harm and I had good judgement and training. In fact, I’d be less likely to want to be near anyone who was uncomfortable with the idea - either they’d have an irrational fear of guns, or they were concluding that I wasn’t trustworthy.
So practically, I wouldn’t carry on anyone’s property where they explicitly forbade it or if I could reasonably conclude that they’d forbid it if they knew - but I wouldn’t tell people when I was carrying - the practical results are bad. They’re no safer if they know, but now even if they’re cool for it they may be looking for me to solve situations that I don’t feel justify using a gun, or they freak out and our relationship is damaged - and for what benefit?