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  #1  
Old 06-23-2009, 04:20 AM
AK84 AK84 is offline
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Why did Obi-Wan call Vader "Darth"

In a new hope when they had their duel? Yes yes, I know the real resaon is at the time the writers had not made Darth Vader=Anakin Skywalker, but in Starwars Universe would it not make much more sence for him to call him "Anakin"? Especially since we now know that "Darth" is a title.
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  #2  
Old 06-23-2009, 04:40 AM
Broomstick Broomstick is offline
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I once worked with a man who had legally changed his name to "Lorenzo". Although most of us knew what his prior name had been, we did not use it, we used "Lorenzo". Anakin used the name "Darth Vader" by the time of A New Hope, he'd changed his name. As for using "Darth" - how is it different from referring to a "Dr. Jones" as "doctor"?
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  #3  
Old 06-23-2009, 04:41 AM
Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor is offline
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Bitterness.

A reflection of his complete rejection of the friend he used to be.
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Old 06-23-2009, 04:42 AM
AK84 AK84 is offline
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^
I thought that leaving him burning on a volcanic planet had already signified that?
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Old 06-23-2009, 04:45 AM
Jman Jman is offline
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Well, the real reason is that Darth wasn't made up as a title yet, I believe. I don't think Lucas had it in mind at the time the first film was made that it was to be a title. I'm not up on any of the EU stuff, though, so I have no idea when that came up. I could be completely wrong, though.

Of course, in reality, much like Dumbledore calls Voldemort 'Tom' in the Harry Potter books, Obi-Wan would have likely called him Anakin if this were not a work of fiction where you are trying to keep the 'big secret' until the next film. Unless, of course, his betrayal to the dark side hurt Obi-Wan so badly that he truly considered Anakin dead and murdered.
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  #6  
Old 06-23-2009, 05:08 AM
Scougs Scougs is offline
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I definitely don't think Darth was a title at this point in the evolution of the story. I think it was his first name, which Obi-Wan used in a kind of belittling way.

Kind of like "Only a master of evil, Bob".
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  #7  
Old 06-23-2009, 05:49 AM
Tom Tildrum Tom Tildrum is offline
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In terms of fanwank, Broomstick has it: Obi-Wan is essentially calling him "Doc".
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  #8  
Old 06-23-2009, 05:55 AM
GuanoLad GuanoLad is offline
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It can easily be considered a dismissive reference to his so-called "title". There isn't any real vitriol in it, making it all the more hurtful.

This is, of course, all just retroactive fanwank.
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  #9  
Old 06-23-2009, 07:36 AM
cactus waltz cactus waltz is offline
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"Only a master of evil, Darth" is a pretty corny line any which way you look at it.
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  #10  
Old 06-23-2009, 07:52 AM
johnspartan johnspartan is offline
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Right. The real quandary isn't why he doesn't refer to him as Anakin (Obi-Wan has made it pretty clear that he considers Anakin dead)... the real question is as we eventually learn Darth is a title or rank of some sort, so it would be like saying "Alright, duke. Yes, duke."

But then, they do seem to have a habit of referring to the emperor as the emperor. So you could just write it up as "regional" social norms.
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  #11  
Old 06-23-2009, 07:58 AM
Cisco Cisco is offline
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This is one of the lamest Star Wars nitpicks, and that's saying a lot. Barack Obama's name is not "president", but no alarms would go off if you said, "Hello, president."
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  #12  
Old 06-23-2009, 08:28 AM
Bosstone Bosstone is offline
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Originally Posted by Cisco View Post
This is one of the lamest Star Wars nitpicks, and that's saying a lot. Barack Obama's name is not "president", but no alarms would go off if you said, "Hello, president."
I don't think it's that lame. I'm as big a Star Wars geek as any, and this line sticks out like a sore thumb to me. It can be wanked away, sure, but it's the only time Darth Vader is ever referred to as Darth, not Vader or Darth Vader.
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  #13  
Old 06-23-2009, 08:29 AM
Horatio Hellpop Horatio Hellpop is offline
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My old college roommate, as debauched a libertine as I'd ever encountered, became a Presbyterian minister later in life. I never miss an opportunity to call him "Reverend."
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  #14  
Old 06-23-2009, 08:35 AM
Hampshire Hampshire is offline
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I don't find it that big of a hurdle one needs to dismiss for the prequels to mesh with the original.
The bigger hurdle has always been why they let Luke keep his last name "Skywalker" when he was supposed to be hidden from his father "Skywalker".
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  #15  
Old 06-23-2009, 08:42 AM
Ají de Gallina Ají de Gallina is offline
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Originally Posted by Cisco View Post
This is one of the lamest Star Wars nitpicks, and that's saying a lot. Barack Obama's name is not "president", but no alarms would go off if you said, "Hello, president."
..because that's the social norm, you don't call the king of Spain "King" you call him "Your majesty". There's a difference between the title and the style.
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  #16  
Old 06-23-2009, 08:51 AM
Quercus Quercus is offline
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..as debauched a libertine as I'd ever encountered..
Since this is Cafe Society, I'll go ahead and say that it warms my heart to read such a phrase used seriously in 2009. Worth the subscription right there.
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  #17  
Old 06-23-2009, 08:54 AM
pravnik pravnik is offline
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To me, the line is dismissive. Had he held any affection for him or recognized any glimpse of remaining humanity, he might have called him Anakin, or Skywalker, or even Vader, but calling him Darth was like calling him simply "Sith." It's like if I went to a former friend's restaurant and called him "waiter" instead of "Steve."
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  #18  
Old 06-23-2009, 09:11 AM
Chimera Chimera is offline
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Seems like a good rib/taunt/"making a point" to me.

Sith Lords are called Darth.

So in saying "Only a master of evil, Darth" makes the point that he's not the man he used to be, that he's gone from being a Jedi to being a Sith Lord.
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  #19  
Old 06-23-2009, 09:42 AM
DigitalC DigitalC is offline
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Originally Posted by Hampshire View Post
I don't find it that big of a hurdle one needs to dismiss for the prequels to mesh with the original.
The bigger hurdle has always been why they let Luke keep his last name "Skywalker" when he was supposed to be hidden from his father "Skywalker".
Because they were passing him off as the son of the other skywalkers...
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  #20  
Old 06-23-2009, 10:49 AM
MovieMogul MovieMogul is offline
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Because they were passing him off as the son of the other skywalkers...
You know, those other, no-relation Skywalkers who just happened to leave their boy with Anakin's half-brother. In the place where Anakin's mother is buried. On the planet where Anakin was born.
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  #21  
Old 06-23-2009, 10:49 AM
Skald the Rhymer Skald the Rhymer is offline
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Originally Posted by DigitalC View Post
Because they were passing him off as the son of the other skywalkers...
I sense snark here, but it could make sense. Maybe Skywalker is as common on Tattooine as Lee is on Earth.
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  #22  
Old 06-23-2009, 11:17 AM
choie choie is offline
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Originally Posted by Ají de Gallina View Post
..because that's the social norm, you don't call the king of Spain "King" you call him "Your majesty". There's a difference between the title and the style.
In the military people call generals "General" and majors "Major" and captains "Captain." I know nothing of these earlier prequels of which everyone speaks*, but is "Darth" that far off from a military rank sorta thing?

In an earlier thread where this was brought up, someone mentioned that it was Obi-Wan being dismissive and cutting, and I made the comparison of this to Law and Order former DA Ben Stone's predilection for calling defendents a withering "sir," as in, "Yes, sir, and then you chopped her head off."

* No I'm not being snarky as to the quality -- I've only seen a little of "Phantom
Menace" so I'm not really up 'em.
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  #23  
Old 06-23-2009, 11:21 AM
muldoonthief muldoonthief is offline
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In the course of the movie, he's addressed as "Darth Vader", "Vader", "Lord Vader", & "Darth" - obviously Lucas just didn't think his name would turn out to be a big deal.
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  #24  
Old 06-23-2009, 12:09 PM
Electric Warrior Electric Warrior is offline
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You know, those other, no-relation Skywalkers who just happened to leave their boy with Anakin's half-brother. In the place where Anakin's mother is buried. On the planet where Anakin was born.
I haven't seen the original trilogy in a while -- is the idea of Tattooine being Anakin's home a prequels-only thing? Because the whole thing is easily explained by the idea that Tattooine is utterly remote. "If there's a bright center of the universe, this is the planet it's furthest from."
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  #25  
Old 06-23-2009, 12:16 PM
AK84 AK84 is offline
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Vader was unlikely to return to Tatoonie, so it was a pretty good hiding place.
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  #26  
Old 06-23-2009, 12:25 PM
johnspartan johnspartan is offline
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I guess you could argue that they never clearly state in the original trilogy whether Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru are maternal or paternal side of the family. If you look at just 4-6, it's conceivable they are not Own and Beru Skywalker.

Further, if you wanted to get really anal, the dialog between the parents "He's just got too much of his father in him" sounds like they ARE a degree removed from Anakin. Because if it's a relative, you might say something like "he's got too much of my/your brother in him."

Course, the prequels blow all that to crap too ;-)
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  #27  
Old 06-23-2009, 12:56 PM
Snooooopy Snooooopy is offline
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It sounded a lot classier than, "Only a master of evil, asshole!"
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  #28  
Old 06-23-2009, 01:15 PM
cochrane cochrane is offline
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This is one of the lamest Star Wars nitpicks, and that's saying a lot. Barack Obama's name is not "president", but no alarms would go off if you said, "Hello, president."
Well, you would refer to him as President Obama, but only a hick would say "Hello, president" instead of "Hello, Mr. President."
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  #29  
Old 06-23-2009, 01:17 PM
Justin_Bailey Justin_Bailey is offline
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You know, those other, no-relation Skywalkers who just happened to leave their boy with Anakin's half-brother. In the place where Anakin's mother is buried. On the planet where Anakin was born.
On the planet where his mother was raped and murdered... That he never visited even when she was alive because he hated it so much...

Yeah, it makes no sense at all.
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  #30  
Old 06-23-2009, 04:25 PM
TBG TBG is offline
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I guess you could argue that they never clearly state in the original trilogy whether Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru are maternal or paternal side of the family. If you look at just 4-6, it's conceivable they are not Own and Beru Skywalker.
The novelization of Jedi even claimed that Owen Lars was actually Ben Kenobi's brother, no relation to Vader/Skywalker at all.

Quote:
Ben: When your father left, he didn't know your mother was pregnant. Your mother and I knew he would find out eventually, but we wanted to keep you both as safe as possible. So I took you to live with my brother, Owen, on Tatooine ... and your mother took Leia to live as the daughter of Senator Organa on Alderaan.
Obviously, a lot of that is decanonized by the prequels, but until then, that was all anyone had to go on.
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  #31  
Old 06-23-2009, 04:28 PM
Skald the Rhymer Skald the Rhymer is offline
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On the planet where his mother was raped and murdered... That he never visited even when she was alive because he hated it so much...

Yeah, it makes no sense at all.
I doubt she was raped. This is Lucas, after all.

But yeah, the way you put it, it actually makes sense. Tattooine is probably the last place in creation Vader would ever go.
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  #32  
Old 06-23-2009, 04:34 PM
Elendil's Heir Elendil's Heir is offline
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Well, you would refer to him as President Obama, but only a hick would say "Hello, president" instead of "Hello, Mr. President."
There are plenty of titles without a prefix like "Mr.," though: governor, senator, congressman, prime minister, chancellor, etc. I have no problem believing that Kenobi was referring to his former pupil by his hateful but voluntarily-assumed title as a Sith Lord, and thereby reminding him that he'd fallen away from the One True Path of the Jedi.
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  #33  
Old 06-23-2009, 05:23 PM
Johnny Q Johnny Q is offline
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You'd think that if he really wanted to piss Vader off, Obi wan would have called him "Annie."

Calling the biggest badass in the galaxy by a girly nickname wouldn't do much for Vader's ego.
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  #34  
Old 06-23-2009, 05:27 PM
MovieMogul MovieMogul is offline
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You'd think that if he really wanted to piss Vader off, Obi wan would have called him "Annie."
See, but in the SW universe, Annie is as common a boy's name as "John" is in ours...
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  #35  
Old 06-23-2009, 05:35 PM
KneadToKnow KneadToKnow is offline
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This point is one of the items I point to in explaining why the prequels were so bad.

All they had to do was put in a line where Kenobi clearly mocked Anakin's new Sith name to set up the "Darth" use in episode IV, but it clearly never even occurred to them.

Example of how hard it would have been:

Quote:
Kenobi Oh, so you're a Sith Lord now? So you spend all your time killing Jedi Knights and making everyone call you "Darth"?
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  #36  
Old 06-23-2009, 05:42 PM
cactus waltz cactus waltz is offline
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You'd think that if he really wanted to piss Vader off, Obi wan would have called him "Annie."

Calling the biggest badass in the galaxy by a girly nickname wouldn't do much for Vader's ego.
How about "Breathy"?
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  #37  
Old 06-23-2009, 06:36 PM
Merijeek Merijeek is offline
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I don't think it's that lame. I'm as big a Star Wars geek as any, and this line sticks out like a sore thumb to me. It can be wanked away, sure, but it's the only time Darth Vader is ever referred to as Darth, not Vader or Darth Vader.
Well, I think it WAS a title back then. I remember reading WAY back that Vader was a "Dark Lord of the Sith". Seeing as how "Darth" is obviously a contraction of "DARk lord of the siTH", it is possible that Lucas had that in mind way back before he became Darth Flannel.

-Joe
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  #38  
Old 06-23-2009, 06:40 PM
Merijeek Merijeek is offline
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On the planet where his mother was raped and murdered... That he never visited even when she was alive because he hated it so much...

Yeah, it makes no sense at all.
...in a galaxy with thousands or millions of inhabited planets. Darth Vader was no longer Anakin Skywalker - this is a huge part of everything through four of the six movies.

Why is Darth Vader going to swing by Owen's farmstead? To discuss the moisture crop? He's the number two ruler of the First Galactic Empire and has no reason to think he has any relatives (Mom, wife, and unborn children are dead, remember?) so why bother? Besides, even if Anakin Skywalker had some relatives, who cares? Darth Vader didn't.

-Joe
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  #39  
Old 06-23-2009, 07:59 PM
Guinastasia Guinastasia is offline
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Think of it as being like the Emperor saying to Luke, "So be it, Jedi."

As for Shmi being raped, it is sort of implied that that's what happened to her.

Oh, and Owen is Anakin's step-brother, remember? Owen's father Clieg, married Shmi Skywalker.

And a lot of Tatooine natives had names like Skywalker, Darklighter, Fardreamer, Whitesun, Blyskipper, Goldenfield, Sandskimmer, Starkiller (which was supposed to be Luke's last name, originally), Windtide, etc. So it's not like "Skywalker" would have been such an unusual name, or have stood out on Tatooine.
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  #40  
Old 06-23-2009, 08:34 PM
AK84 AK84 is offline
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Originally Posted by Johnny Q View Post
You'd think that if he really wanted to piss Vader off, Obi wan would have called him "Annie."

Calling the biggest badass in the galaxy by a girly nickname wouldn't do much for Vader's ego.
Calling him what his beloved and very dead wife called him would be rather stupid, only piss him off.
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  #41  
Old 06-23-2009, 09:19 PM
rocking chair rocking chair is offline
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tatooine would be a bit difficult for darthy-boy. all that sand getting into his delicate mechanical bits.

he had more important things to do force choking people, hunting hidden jedi, kissing up to the emperor...
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  #42  
Old 06-23-2009, 09:28 PM
Captain Carrot Captain Carrot is offline
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Originally Posted by Guinastasia View Post
And a lot of Tatooine natives had names like Skywalker, Darklighter, Fardreamer, Whitesun, Blyskipper, Goldenfield, Sandskimmer, Starkiller (which was supposed to be Luke's last name, originally), Windtide, etc. So it's not like "Skywalker" would have been such an unusual name, or have stood out on Tatooine.
So they're a bit like space hobbits?
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  #43  
Old 06-24-2009, 12:31 AM
sjc sjc is offline
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Originally Posted by Merijeek View Post
...in a galaxy with thousands or millions of inhabited planets. Darth Vader was no longer Anakin Skywalker - this is a huge part of everything through four of the six movies.

Why is Darth Vader going to swing by Owen's farmstead? To discuss the moisture crop? He's the number two ruler of the First Galactic Empire and has no reason to think he has any relatives (Mom, wife, and unborn children are dead, remember?) so why bother? Besides, even if Anakin Skywalker had some relatives, who cares? Darth Vader didn't.

-Joe
Well yes, that makes a certain amount of sense, but at the same time that seems to be an awfully big gamble for Obi-Wan to make. Even if he's pretty sure that Anakin doesn't know about his son and even if he's pretty sure that he has no interest in returning to Tatooine, I don't think he can be positive.
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  #44  
Old 06-24-2009, 01:16 AM
Johnny Q Johnny Q is offline
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Calling him what his beloved and very dead wife called him would be rather stupid, only piss him off.
Two things:

1. A pissed off enemy is more likely to make mistakes, and that might increase your life expectancy while he blunders into stupid moves. Especially if he outclasses you as a swordsman and bears a grudge.

2. As Vader himself pointed out, "Escape was not his intention." Ben fully expected(or intended?) to fall to Vader's blade. He was basically holding off his old buddy until the rest of his friends could get away, as ol' Darthy Boy(or is it Dorothy, if the thing about guys with girly nicknames is true) could've wasted them all with his pinky. Perhaps literally.
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  #45  
Old 06-24-2009, 03:21 AM
cactus waltz cactus waltz is offline
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Two things:

1. A pissed off enemy is more likely to make mistakes, and that might increase your life expectancy while he blunders into stupid moves. Especially if he outclasses you as a swordsman and bears a grudge.

2. As Vader himself pointed out, "Escape was not his intention." Ben fully expected(or intended?) to fall to Vader's blade. He was basically holding off his old buddy until the rest of his friends could get away, as ol' Darthy Boy(or is it Dorothy, if the thing about guys with girly nicknames is true) could've wasted them all with his pinky. Perhaps literally.

"Only a master of evil, Dorothy". I can go with that.


However. I think the only reason Kenobi calls Darth Vader "Darth" is to signify that they have a past together. They are the only ones in the story arc to do so, hence Kenobi is the only one to use a different name. Simple as that - he is being personal, since they go way back. It is akin to calling somebody by their first name.
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  #46  
Old 06-24-2009, 11:39 AM
Yumblie Yumblie is offline
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Originally Posted by Merijeek View Post
...in a galaxy with thousands or millions of inhabited planets. Darth Vader was no longer Anakin Skywalker - this is a huge part of everything through four of the six movies.

Why is Darth Vader going to swing by Owen's farmstead? To discuss the moisture crop? He's the number two ruler of the First Galactic Empire and has no reason to think he has any relatives (Mom, wife, and unborn children are dead, remember?) so why bother? Besides, even if Anakin Skywalker had some relatives, who cares? Darth Vader didn't.

-Joe
It's also worth noting that Vader didn't start caring about his son until after the first death star battle. He sensed a force-strong pilot, and saw that Obi-Wan was still alive, so he came to the conclusion that Obi-Wan found his long lost son and was training him. Suddenly, this lost son of his that he otherwise would play deadbeat dad to has become a potential threat and/or ally.
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  #47  
Old 06-24-2009, 11:58 AM
JThunder JThunder is offline
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Just be thankful that he didn't say, "Party on, Darth."
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  #48  
Old 06-24-2009, 01:40 PM
Johnny Q Johnny Q is offline
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"Party on, Wan!!" Although I'm skeptical as to how well James Earl Jones could've pulled off the "woowoowoowoowooo" part.
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  #49  
Old 06-24-2009, 02:45 PM
Guinastasia Guinastasia is offline
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It's also worth noting that Vader didn't start caring about his son until after the first death star battle. He sensed a force-strong pilot, and saw that Obi-Wan was still alive, so he came to the conclusion that Obi-Wan found his long lost son and was training him. Suddenly, this lost son of his that he otherwise would play deadbeat dad to has become a potential threat and/or ally.


Or, rather, that he didn't know he HAD a son -- he didn't there were twins, or that any child survived.
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  #50  
Old 06-24-2009, 02:54 PM
Miller Miller is online now
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Originally Posted by Johnny Q View Post
Two things:

1. A pissed off enemy is more likely to make mistakes, and that might increase your life expectancy while he blunders into stupid moves. Especially if he outclasses you as a swordsman and bears a grudge.
I don't know if that strategy would work with a Sith Lord, though. Hatred and anger are, after all, the source of their power. Getting them pissed off would only make them more dangerous.
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