How come Gandalf didn't know Bilbo had the One Ring?

[Quartz]

It's explicitly stated that when Sauron forged the One Ring and put it on, the elves who bore the Three immediately detected it and knew they had been deceived and so took off their rings immediately to avoid coming under Sauron's control. So how come Gandalf, who bore the Ring of Fire, didn't know it when Bilbo wore the One Ring?

[Alessan]

Maybe because Bilbo, not knowing how to use the ring (the invisiblity being more of a side effect), hadn't "activated" it the way Sauron had.

[Harmonious Discord]

Gandalf is not an elf. Tolken never mentioned that Gandalf knew what was going on when Sauron put on the ring, so why would he when Bilbo did so?

[Alessan]

Originally Posted by Harmonious Discord

Gandalf is not an elf. Tolken never mentioned that Gandalf knew what was going on when Sauron put on the ring, so why would he when Bilbo did so?

So why didn't Elrond or Galadriel know?

I like my theory better.

[TWDuke]

In reality, the author of "The Hobbit" hadn't yet conceived of "one ring to rule them all, one ring to find them" but this isn't really a plot hole anyway.

The elves caught on when Sauron switched on the finding and ruling functions, creating a ring network. As an unintended, this revealed him to the bearers of the elven rings (which were made using some of his techniques, but not by him).

Bilbo never attempted to use the ring to find or rule the others, so he never "switched on" this network (not that he even could have). Gandalf and the elves had no idea of the ring's whereabouts in all the centuries Gollum had it either, so there's no inconsistency there.

[Tim R. Mortiss]

Also, Mordor had long been wired for 802.11n, while the Shire was still limping along on 802.11b. Gollum's cave in the Misty Mountains, needless to say, could barely handle ethernet speeds*. So it's all a question of bandwidth......TRM

*the MiddleEarlthLink corporation still being in its infancy.

[DSYoungEsq]

Bilbo did not have the willpower to energize the One Ring sufficiently to allow anyone to know it had been found. In addition, Bilbo did not try to use the Ring to control anyone, so the wearers of the Three would not have known anyone had the Ring on. Notice that the Nine didn't even know to home in on it until Gollum spilled the beans, so to speak, in Mordor.

Now, had it been the case that Bilbo and Frodo had taken to wearing the Ring for long periods of time, this might have changed. But they both seem to have used it sparingly.

[eleanorigby]

I just figured the Ring was dormant because Sauron had not yet gained enough power to be a strong force of evil (not enough minions at first). Then, as the years went by and Sauron gained in strength, the Ring became once more a target for him. After all the Nazgul weren't looking for it when Gollum had it. Also, the Ring wanted to be reunited with its master.

What I've always wondered about it why the other wizards don't bother to show up for THE Battle for Middle Earth. Damned Radagast--can't count on him for anything but eagles...

[Skald the Rhymer]

Why would you expect him to know that?

Gandalf was not an expert in ring-lore by any means. He had to go to Minas Tirith to research it when he became suspicious. There were other magic rings in Middle-earth; more than just the nineteen we know about, I suspect, as Gandalf used the word many to describe the quantity, at a point when he already knew the disposition of most of them. He described the lesser essays in ring-craft as being dangerous for mortals, so I suspect he always knew that such rings involved taking a wearer partly into the Unseen World, which meant any man or hobbit who donned one would become invisibe; thus, the mere fact that Bilbo's ring made him invisible did not indicate that it was one of the great rings. In fact, he may have incorrectly concluded that the invisibility meant this wasn't Sauron's ring, as Sauron was visible while wearing it.

Gandalf was not omniscient, as I said. Elrond knew more about healing than he did, for instance; Saruman had more ringlore. I expect Gandalf had a great deal more woodcraft and practical, mundane knowledge than either of them.

[Henrichek]

Originally Posted by TWDuke

The elves caught on when Sauron switched on the finding and ruling functions, creating a ring network.

A Tolkien Ring network, to be precise.

[carnivorousplant]

Originally Posted by Tim R. Mortiss

*the MiddleEarlthLink corporation still being in its infancy.

Smeagol@MELC.net.

I think they all should have been clued in when they discovered that the built in compass would only point towards Mordor.

[Bosstone]

Originally Posted by Henrichek

A Tolkien Ring network, to be precise.

One does not simply log into Mordor.

[Magiver]

Originally Posted by Henrichek

A Tolkien Ring network, to be precise.

Think of the millions of dollars spent on R&D for this joke.

You're a member of Congress aren't you.

[Reepicheep]

Originally Posted by Henrichek

A Tolkien Ring network, to be precise.

You will die slowly for that.

[kaylasdad99]

Originally Posted by Bosstone

One does not simply log into Mordor.

Well played, sir!

[OttoDaFe]

Originally Posted by Bosstone

One does not simply log into Mordor.

If you think logging into Mordor is hard, try logging out!

[Chronos]

Gandalf was not an expert in ring-lore by any means. He had to go to Minas Tirith to research it when he became suspicious. There were other magic rings in Middle-earth; more than just the nineteen we know about, I suspect, as Gandalf used the word many to describe the quantity, at a point when he already knew the disposition of most of them. He described the lesser essays in ring-craft as being dangerous for mortals, so I suspect he always knew that such rings involved taking a wearer partly into the Unseen World, which meant any man or hobbit who donned one would become invisibe; thus, the mere fact that Bilbo's ring made him invisible did not indicate that it was one of the great rings. In fact, he may have incorrectly concluded that the invisibility meant this wasn't Sauron's ring, as Sauron was visible while wearing it.

First of all, 3+7+9+1 = 20, not 19. Second, while it may be true that even lesser rings would entail some connection to the Unseen World, Gandalf did know that only a true Great Ring would go so far as to make its wearer invisible. You're correct, though, that Gandalf was not particularly an expert on Ringlore, that being Saruman's specialty. Gandalf's specialty, to the extent he had one, seemed to be primarily in the peoples and people of Middle-Earth themselves.

[Thalion]

I always thought that it wasn't the One Ring that the other ringbearers detected - it was the spell that Sauron cast upon creating it. Once he spoke the words, "Ash nazg durbatulûk, ash nazg gimbatul, ash nazg thrakatulûk, agh burzum-ishi krimpatul", the Elves felt the power of the spell and removed their rings.

Thus, the Ring itself didn't radiate that warning after the spell was cast.

[Skald the Rhymer]

Originally Posted by Chronos

First of all, 3+7+9+1 = 20, not 19.

It sure is. I was unconsciously counting the Bilbo's ring out of the mix, but obviously that was an error.

Second, while it may be true that even lesser rings would entail some connection to the Unseen World, Gandalf did know that only a true Great Ring would go so far as to make its wearer invisible.

How would he know this? He was not an expert in ring lore, as you agree elsewhere in your post--certainly not at the time of There And Back Again. I don't think he saw any need to master that discipline at that time, because he trusted Saruman to handle that.

You're correct, though, that Gandalf was not particularly an expert on Ringlore, that being Saruman's specialty. Gandalf's specialty, to the extent he had one, seemed to be primarily in the peoples and people of Middle-Earth themselves.

By the way--just out of idle curiosity--why did you delete my screen name when you quoted me? I'm not objecting, nor am I offended; I just don't see the point. It seems to add a needless step to the reply process

[Jonathan Chance]

Originally Posted by Bosstone

One does not simply log into Mordor.

You do. You totally do.

Well at least try 'Admin' and 'Admin' first.

[asterion]

Originally Posted by Bosstone

One does not simply log into Mordor.

It's rather like trying to get into AOL dialup.

[Crowbar of Irony +3]

Let's put a twist to the question. Saurman, by all accounts, studied much of the crafting of the rings and ring-lore. If Saurman had the Ring of Fire, would he knew about the One Ring? (did Tolkien ever address this?)

[carnivorousplant]

Originally Posted by Jonathan Chance

Well at least try 'Admin' and 'Admin' first.

Considering the kind of folks Sauron deals with, I'd try "Cisco" and "Cisco".

[glee]

Originally Posted by eleanorigby

What I've always wondered about it why the other wizards don't bother to show up for THE Battle for Middle Earth. Damned Radagast--can't count on him for anything but eagles...

Appendix B in The Return of the King adds that there was warfare all over Middle Earth.
Lorien was attacked (from Dol Goldur) while both Mirkwood and the lands surrounding the Lonely Mountain were assailed by Sauron's trooops and allies.
No doubt Radagast was helping the forces of Good at these places.

It's interesting to consider that Gandalf may have inspired the events of the Hobbit to avoid Sauron and Smaug both attacking...

[carnivorousplant]

Highjack: I saw Bilbo in a Jack the Ripper movie last night.

[DSYoungEsq]

Originally Posted by glee

Appendix B in The Return of the King adds that there was warfare all over Middle Earth.
Lorien was attacked (from Dol Goldur) while both Mirkwood and the lands surrounding the Lonely Mountain were assailed by Sauron's trooops and allies.
No doubt Radagast was helping the forces of Good at these places.

It's interesting to consider that Gandalf may have inspired the events of the Hobbit to avoid Sauron and Smaug both attacking...

Interesting to consider? There's an excerpt in the appendices, if my mind is not playing tricks on me, in which Gandalf pretty much says right out that Smaug was on his mind for this very reason, and that's part of what motivated the whole bit with helping Thorin find his burglar.

[palindromemordnilap]

Originally Posted by Bosstone

One does not simply log into Mordor.

There's one heck of a firewall.

[Tenar]

Originally Posted by Bosstone

One does not simply log into Mordor.

You DO! You totally DO!

[Munch]

By the way--just out of idle curiosity--why did you delete my screen name when you quoted me?

I'm not going to speak for him, but when I quote an excerpt, I don't hit the "Quote" button. I copy and paste that excerpt and click the quote tool (or just type the tags manually). It saves time.

[TWDuke]

Originally Posted by glee

Appendix B in The Return of the King adds that there was warfare all over Middle Earth.
Lorien was attacked (from Dol Goldur) while both Mirkwood and the lands surrounding the Lonely Mountain were assailed by Sauron's trooops and allies.
No doubt Radagast was helping the forces of Good at these places.

If true, that would leave only the two blue wizards who went into the east unaccounted for. The conventional wisdom, based on some posthumously published scribblings of Tolkien, is that they strayed from righteousness and founded cults that persisted after the fall of Sauron (whether Tolkien meant to identify these with any actual eastern religions is unclear). However, subsequent scribblings indicate that the blues were in fact fighting the good fight, simply in a different arena.

My personal approach is just to let the imagine roam. Anything's possible if it's doesn't contradict what's defined in The Hobbit or The Lord of the Rings.

I don't to put too much stock in the volumes of material published after Tolkien's death. As Middle-earth was a work in progress and the author was constantly tinkering with it and changing his mind, notes, rough drafts and half-finished stories can hardly be considered definitive. (I make exception for his letters, as they were obviously intended for other people to read and he was often just clarifying things that were implied in the published works.)

[eleanorigby]

Originally Posted by glee

Appendix B in The Return of the King adds that there was warfare all over Middle Earth.
Lorien was attacked (from Dol Goldur) while both Mirkwood and the lands surrounding the Lonely Mountain were assailed by Sauron's trooops and allies.
No doubt Radagast was helping the forces of Good at these places.

It's interesting to consider that Gandalf may have inspired the events of the Hobbit to avoid Sauron and Smaug both attacking...

Eh, seems to simple. He should have rated at least a mention in the main text. We don't really know if he was helping the elves at Lorien or near Mirkwood. He may well have been sleeping it off somewhere with those pesky eagles.

IMO, Tolkien should have developed the wizards more. I am less than interested in the swirly mists of nether being that is Sauron et al. YMMV, of course.

[Chronos]

Quoth Skald:

By the way--just out of idle curiosity--why did you delete my screen name when you quoted me? I'm not objecting, nor am I offended; I just don't see the point. It seems to add a needless step to the reply process

What Munch said. I prefer to type out the tags manually, so adding the name is actually an extra step. And besides, I like my format for putting the name in better than how the board does it anyway.

I do usually try to put in the quoth when it would be unclear who said it, and probably should have, in this case, because your post was a bit of a ways back, but I apparently forgot in this case.

[The Piranha Brothers]

Who are the other 4 wizards anyway? We have Gandalf the Grey, Saruman the White, and Radagast the Brown. That leaves 4 power range... I mean, 4 wizards unaccounted for.

I agree with the general idea that while no-one with great power was wearing the one ring, it was inactive and therefore incognito?

One can simply log into mordor, but sauron will be watching from his eyebook.

[TWDuke]

OK, let me take off the ring that apparently made my previous post invisible.

There were only five wizards. The two blue wizards went into the east, beyond the portion of Middle-earth documented in The Lord of the Rings. What they did there and what ultimately became of them was never made clear.

[Chronos]

Oh, and as for what Gandalf knew and when: In FotR chapter 2, "The Shadow of the Past", we have him say

I wondered often how Gollum came by a Great Ring, as plainly it was-- that at least was clear from the first

Later, at the Council of Elrond, he reveals that he had known for a while (but not until after The Hobbit) that the Three, Seven, and Nine all bore gems, but that the One was unadorned.

[Tom Tildrum]

At some point on Weathertop, Frodo confronted the Nazgul while wearing the Ring, didn't he? If he had known better what the Ring was, could he have controlled them and turned them away from Sauron's service?

[Munch]

Originally Posted by Tom Tildrum

At some point on Weathertop, Frodo confronted the Nazgul while wearing the Ring, didn't he? If he had known better what the Ring was, could he have controlled them and turned them away from Sauron's service?

I doubt Aragorn could have turned them away using the Ring.

[toadspittle]

Originally Posted by Tom Tildrum

At some point on Weathertop, Frodo confronted the Nazgul while wearing the Ring, didn't he? If he had known better what the Ring was, could he have controlled them and turned them away from Sauron's service?

No. Because Sauron held their rings. At the time Frodo met them, they had faded so completely that they no longer needed to wear the rings to walk unseen. Sauron held their rings himself--kind of like keeping their souls hostage, I think.

One thing I don't recall being clarified: Were the Nine and the Seven of different "families" as a result of their manufacture, or were they simply grouped that way afterward, since Sauron doled out 9 to men and 7 to dwarves? Did they have different properties from each other, or were the differences negligible? Are we talking 16 fairly similar rings, 7 similar rings and 9 similar rings, or 16 utterly dissimilar rings?

[TWDuke]

Tolkien wrote in one of his letters that after Frodo claimed the ring at Mount Doom, the Ringwraiths would not have taken it by force but would have deceived him into staying there until Sauron showed up to reclaim his property. So actually controlling them seems out of the question. (Although things would be different if Frodo had the opportunity and the desire to build up his ability to master others -- Ringwraiths would just not be the place to start.

So the only question is could he even have held them at bay? Doubtful, given that the ring had not been in his possession (or vice versa) as long as it would be when he reached Mount Doom. But even then they might have betrayed him by encouraging him to face Sauron and attempting to overthrow him.

ETA: The 16 rings would have been virtually identical. They were originally made for use by the elves. Distributing them to men and dwarfs was Plan B after the elf-lords caught on.

[Tom Tildrum]

But wasn't it "One Ring to rule them all"?

[TWDuke]

Yes, and that ring was Sauron's.

[The Piranha Brothers]

Originally Posted by Tom Tildrum

At some point on Weathertop, Frodo confronted the Nazgul while wearing the Ring, didn't he? If he had known better what the Ring was, could he have controlled them and turned them away from Sauron's service?

Theoretically, yes. But after that he would have been tempted to use the ring again and would become a dark lord himself (perhaps overthrowing sauron but nevertheless he would become evil).

They might as well have used a catapult to hurl the ring into mordor, over sauron's defenses.

[DSYoungEsq]

Mordor would have tossed cows back at them. Or something like...

[Tom Tildrum]

Originally Posted by The Piranha Brothers

Theoretically, yes. But after that he would have been tempted to use the ring again and would become a dark lord himself (perhaps overthrowing sauron but nevertheless he would become evil).

They might as well have used a catapult to hurl the ring into mordor, over sauron's defenses.

Oh, certainly. But this was before the Council at Rivendell, so Frodo wouldn't have understood those consequences.

[Uosdwis R. Dewoh]

Originally Posted by Bosstone

One does not simply log into Mordor.

Judging by the security around Mount Doom, the password to Mordor is something along the line of 12345.

[The Piranha Brothers]

Originally Posted by DSYoungEsq

Mordor would have tossed cows back at them. Or something like...

RUN AWAY!!!

Originally Posted by Uosdwis R. Dewoh

Judging by the security around Mount Doom, the password to Mordor is something along the line of 12345.

Could be, but I think it's probably Onering, Onering_torulethemall, or ashnashgimbatur.

[Munch]

Originally Posted by The Piranha Brothers

Onering_torulethemall

I think that's Paul Blart's password as well...

[Elendil's Heir]

More on the Blue Wizards: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Wizards

[Bootis]

Even if Gandalf was mostly sure it was the one ring, he wasn't 100% sure yet, and regardless, he didn't have reason to believe it was in imminent danger. In fact, at the time, tucked away in the Shire was an ideal place for it, while he researched more about it. The fact that it seemed likely to be the great ring brought much into question, especially the words of Saruman, master of ring lore, who was beyond certain the ring was gone. At this stage, Gandalf had no reason to not trust Saruman, but he wisely deemed it vital to get his ring lore a little more up to date, he needed to know exactly what he was dealing with, since the resident expert was beginning to look a little less credible.

[well he's back]

If ever I change user names, or add a sig, it will be "One ring to rule the mall"