Rosenburgs after the fall of Communism

[Markxxx]

Seems to me it the case against Julius and Ethal Rosenburg for passing secrets to the USSR was somewhat weak (though many would disagree).

And as time went by more and more people thought it was wrong to have offed them.

But I recall hearing that after the Soviet Union broke up facts came out that indicated they were in fact guilty and the government was right.

Is the correct or did no new info come out.

[Chas.E]

Yeah, I remember hearing the same thing. I heard that KGB files were released and it substantiated that the Rosenburgs (Rosenbergs?) were definitely Soviet moles. Everything the US suspected was true, they had copies of all the most important Manhattan Project papers, the Sovs saved 10 years of work by copying US designs. They suspected there was another agent, and it was revealed, Clyde or Claude or something like that, I can't remember. He was another major security leak, and feeding significant data to the Rosenbergs. It was pretty well confirmed that the Rosenbergs did commit high treason and did deserve the electric chair, along with at a few others who got away.
I think I saw some PBS Frontline or Discovery Channel show about this, it's probably on the web if you poke around. I forgot exactly where I saw it.

[bibliophage]

CNN has done a series on the Cold War. http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/cold.war...s/06/then.now/

The new evidence demonstrates that Julius Rosenberg was an important Soviet agent in charge of a spy ring that obtained scientific secrets, including material relating to the atomic bomb.

It confirms that Alger Hiss was an important Soviet agent from the mid-1930s through the 1940s, turning over State Department secrets to Soviet military intelligence.

[KarlGauss]

I think the notoriety of the Rosenberg case arose from their sentence (death) as much as it did from questions regarding their guilt or innocence. For one, no American had ever been executed for treason during peacetime.

[Chas.E]

Yes Bibilophage, that was definitely where I saw this, thanks for the cite. That Cold War series was quite amazing, and the website is pretty good too. And it has the info on people like Klaus Fuchs (that was the guy I was thinking of).

[Little Nemo]

Another confirmation (which may have predated the collapse of the Soviet Union) was made due the Freedom of Information law. Some pro-Rosenburg researchers requested some recently released documents on the case and discovered that the government had a mole, a Soviet agent who had turned informant, who gave them clear proof of Julius Rosenberg's guilt. During the trial, none of this evidence was used because the government wanted to protect the identity of the still active double agent. So while the evidence presented in court appeared weak, high government officials knew Julius was definitely guilty.

[KarlGauss]

In his book, Dark Sun published in 1995, Richard Rhodes cites much evidence to leave little doubt about Julius' guilt. Ethel's role seemed rather minor in comparison. Possibly even inadvertant.

The book also has a wealth of detail regarding Klaus Fuchs and Julius' coconspirator, David Greenglass.

[TheThill]

Curiously enough, they are currently in the process of renaming the Ethel- und Julius-Rosenberg-Straße here in Leipzig. Not only was it a political curiosity, but they used up a lot of metal for those street signs.

[Olentzero]

After perusing several book reviews of The Sword and the Shield: The Mitrokhin Archives (this one stood out for a number of reasons) and a couple of discussions on Aleksandr Feklisov (including an interesting series of posts from Morton Sobell, one of the co-defendants with the Rosenbergs), the consensus to me seems to be that Julius Rosenberg did pass on some information about military electric projects but no atomic secrets. There is some contention as well that the evidence in the Rosenbergs' trial was withheld to protect the Venona project, as the messages Venona was designed to decode had had the encoding method changed well before Julius was fingered, indicating the Soviet Union may have been aware of the project's existence and taken countermeasures.

To sum up, it seems highly doubtful that Julius Rosenberg was an atomic spy - the charge on which he was tried. He may have passed on some other info. Big deal. The Soviet Union had agents all over the country doing the same thing. The United States had their own people in Russia. Neither he nor Ethel should have been executed for it, and bringing new evidence that he did spy for the Soviet Union shouldn't balm one's soul over the matter.

I guess I'll risk sending this to GD by asking the posters in this thread what their reactions would have been if Alexander Pope had been sentenced to death, or if there had been an equally prominent espionage case in Russia during the Cold War.

[warinner]

Olentzero wrote:

the consensus to me seems to be that Julius Rosenberg did pass on some information about military electric projects but no atomic secrets.

There really is such a wealth of evidence from a variety of sources, including Vasili Mitrokhin, that the Rosenbergs were involved in atomic spying and did pass on secrets obtained by David Greenglass (Ethel Rosenberg's brother who worked at Los Alamos and was recruited by Julius Rosenberg). The theory for building an atomic bomb is fairly straightforward and were obvious to all, including scientists in the USSR, the engineering challenges are daunting. Greenglass did pass on information about the explosive lens in the implosion nuclear bombs, one of the most difficult engineering problems and one that occupied a significant amount of time and energy at Los Almos.

Did they deserve the death penalty? Probably not, but they certainly don't the Cold War martyrs rep that is still defended in some quarters.

Andrew Warinner

[Milton De La Warre]

I read "The Sword and the Shield" and "The FBI-KGB War", and the last post is quite correct. Rosenberg was most definitely a spy who passed on atomic secrets to the USSR. Much to the disgust of persons left-of-center in this and other countries, the code name the KGB used for him was LIBERAL. Venona was a key factor in identifying him, but the government couldn't use it in court for fear of revealing the secret of decoding Soviet messages. This is in part why the case appeared weak. The main reason, however, is all the whining the leftists did then and still do now. Despite the evidence of Venona and numerous admissions by ex-KGB'ers, etc., many people (including the Rosenberg sons, I hear) still firmly believe them to be innocent.

The theory that anti-semitism had something to do with it all doesn't hold water when you realize that both the prosecutor and the judge were also Jewish.

I personally have no qualms whatsoever with executing persons convicted of espionage. Peacetime or wartime, it makes no difference. Spies work to place the country they are spying against at a disadvantage which could cause its destruction, and give the country they are spying for advantages which are a virtual incentive to war. In this light, they are not only guilty of a crime against the entire people of the nation they are spying against, they are also guilty of a crime against all people in that they facilitate the start of wars.

[Olentzero]

Originally posted by warriner
There really is such a wealth of evidence from a variety of sources

I should like to see a couple of them, if you have titles or links handy.

including Vasili Mitrokhin

I leafed through several book reviews again just to make sure what I'm about to say is correct. Mitrokhin does not seem to be a source for any information about the Rosenbergs.


The
NY Times review from Oct '99 says nothing about the Rosenbergs, while this review on USNet says this specifically:

Unfortunately, the book offers nothing of interest on.. such important topics as the Rosenberg case or Alger Hiss.

If Mitrokhin has definite evidence that Julius Rosenberg had passed on atomic secrets to the USSR, where has he presented it?

Originally posted by JCHeckler
Venona was a key factor in identifying him, but the government couldn't use it in court for fear of revealing the secret of decoding Soviet messages

I'd like to quote Morton Sobell on this one (the source is the link I provided earlier):

Another troublesome area revolves around the NSA's admitted inability to decode messages received after some time in 1945. At the initial ceremony Vice Admiral McConnell acknowledged: "We don't know when or who or exactly where our ability to exploit the communications was compromised, and early on our window of opportunity was compromised...and closed forever." In a similar vein Lamphere writes: "I was also chagrined...to learn that by May 1945 the KGB had changed its codes and Meridith Gardner could not break any of the messages dated after that time." And even the official publication of the NSA, VENONA Historical Monograph #3, states that no KGB messages after 1945 were ever broken.

Venona was out of commission long before the Rosenberg case. There was nothing that would have been compromised that the Soviets didn't already know about.

JCHeckler
Much to the disgust of persons left-of-center in this and other countries, the code name the KGB used for him was LIBERAL

Not sure what this is supposed to mean. I'm not disgusted by it. Another quote from Sobell:

despite the evidence in Julius' FBI files that contain a clear admission that the CIA had no idea who "ANTENNA/ LIBERAL" (the covernames that the CIA ultimately assigned to Julius) was until Greenglass fingered him

JCHeckler, again:
The main reason, however, is all the whining the leftists did then and still do now.

This is General Questions, not Great Debates or The BBQ Pit. Try to keep ad hominem generalizations out of the discussions.

[Guinastasia]

Just a quick question-if espionage was so horrible, why did the US throw such a hissy about the Gary Powers episode? He WAS indeed spying. I mean, we were caught red-handed. (pardon the pun!)

[Shodan]

I think the issue is the same as with many (not all) other cases of the death penalty.

People don't oppose the execution because they believe the convicts innocent; they believe the convicts innocent because they oppose the execution.

Regards,
Shodan

"In any given situation, it is usually possible to find an explanation that fits the known facts better than the truth." - Anonymous

[Danimal]

Originally posted by Guinastasia
Just a quick question-if espionage was so horrible, why did the US throw such a hissy about the Gary Powers episode? He WAS indeed spying. I mean, we were caught red-handed. (pardon the pun!)

I was about to bring up Powers. I believe the Soviets would have been well within their rights to execute him. (IIRC, they chose to trade him instead). I am not sure about this, but I believe he was not in uniform (so that if shot down and killed he could not be identified), so that legally gave him the status of spy rather than POW.

I'm not sure what you mean, though, about the US throwing a "hissy." It was the Soviet Union full of righteous indignation, to which Eisenhower contributed by denying that any spy flights were occurring. And it gave the Soviets a tailor-made excuse to walk out of negotiations over Berlin, which they didn't want to be involved in anyway.

Of course, I see the Americans as the good guys in the Cold War, and I wouldn't have been happy to see Powers executed (had I been alive at the time), but I can't say the Soviets wouldn't have been justified had they executed him.

[i]Originally posted by Olentzero
I guess I'll risk sending this to GD by asking the posters in this thread what their reactions would have been if Alexander Pope had been sentenced to death

We would have lost a great Georgian-era poet?

[Lemur866]

At the risk of creating a debate, I'm going to disagree with Heckler that spies help to start wars. My theory is that wars often start because one side has innaccurate information about the other. Typically the belligerant believes that the other country is weaker than it really is. Accurate spy information seems likely to decrease the likelyhood of war, since the aggressor nation will realize exactly how risky starting a war would be.

Also, we have to consider the effect of spying. Spying for the Nazis is bad. Spying for the resistance against the Nazis is good. Since I consider the USSR to be on the "Nazi" side of things, and the western countries on the "resistance" side of things, it stands to reason that I find spying for the Soviets to be bad while spying for the west to be good.

[Olentzero]

Originally posted by Danimal
We would have lost a great Georgian-era poet?

I may be having a brainfade here. Who was the American businessman recently put on trial and convicted of spying for the US but then released? I thought his name was Alexander Pope...

[Milton De La Warre]

Venona was not decoding new messages when the Rosenberg case came to trial, but it was still decoding the older messages. And the Rosenberg spy activity of principal interest to the trial occurred before the the KGB changed its encoding methods.

To clairify what I intended by "much to the disgust of left of center, etc.": I've heard it said that the use of the code name LIBERAL is too incredible to really have been used by the KGB, and supposedly just goes to show the Venona messages were entirely or in part made up by the FBI as a part of this or that grand conspiracy. But I doubt any of the folks who post or read this board would subscribe to that particular theory. My apologies for any misunderstandings.

The NY times review of Oct 99 only says they find "nothing of interest" on the Rosenberg case in "The Sword and the Shield". All that means is that the NY Times reviewer didn't find the relevant material to be of interest, not that it wasn't there.

I don't beleive the Venona messages ever say out-and-out "LIBERAL is Julius Rosenberg"; of course, they never would. But they did provide clues that when combined with Greenglass' information made a pretty solid picture.

It seems to me that the weight of current scholarship is on the side of the discussion that the Rosenbergs were in fact guilty. General informed opinion is that the now-available evidence supports this. C-SPAN recently had a panel discussion in a public forum on the subject of Soviet spying in those days, Venona decrypt information, the Mitrokhin archives, etc. Of course, the majority of "experts" have been wrong before.

Point taken about spies starting/not starting wars. It's who they spy for and the intentions of those people.

[Danimal]

Originally posted by Olentzero
I may be having a brainfade here. Who was the American businessman recently put on trial and convicted of spying for the US but then released? I thought his name was Alexander Pope...

A Google search under "Pope" and "spy" reveals something about an espionage trial in Russia of an Edmond Pope, a retired U.S. Navy captain, although I didn't see any references to the outcome. Is this the guy you meant?

[Olentzero]

Originally posted by JCHeckler
The NY times review of Oct 99 only says they find "nothing of interest" on the Rosenberg case in "The Sword and the Shield". All that means is that the NY Times reviewer didn't find the relevant material to be of interest, not that it wasn't there.

This is my point. Any damning evidence that absolutely proved Julius Rosenberg passed on atomic secrets to the USSR would be 'of interest' to any book reviewer, since the debate is still going on.

I don't beleive the Venona messages ever say out-and-out "LIBERAL is Julius Rosenberg"; of course, they never would. But they did provide clues that when combined with Greenglass' information made a pretty solid picture.

Morton Sobell's original letter in the link I posted a while back says the FBI had fingered him as RELE/SERB based on clues; then it transpired that RELE/SERB had an artificial leg, whereas Morton has both his. If their evidence was that faulty for Sobell, I would tend to doubt any clues they had for Rosenberg.

It seems to me that the weight of current scholarship is on the side of the discussion that the Rosenbergs were in fact guilty.

I'm not denying that there is evidence Julius passed on some information to the USSR. My understanding is that Ethel was innocent; there's nothing indicating her involvement in the ring. I strongly disagree with their execution, given that there were other spy rings in the U.S. doing the same thing they did and especially because they were tried and convicted of passing on atomic secrets, not technical details, which there is no evidence to support.

[Olentzero]

Danimal, that's the guy. He was thrown in the clink for a while then released, just in the past month IIRC.

Damn brainfades.

[Danimal]

Originally posted by Olentzero
Danimal, that's the guy. He was thrown in the clink for a while then released, just in the past month IIRC.

I really don't know what to say about this Edmond Pope. Obviously, I'm unfamiliar with the evidence against him, and have no real idea if he's falsely accused. Ordinarily I would defer to the court, but then I don't know what Russian courts are like these days. Under the Communists, Russia had no independent judiciary; I should hope the Russian courts have improved since democracy came, but I can't point to any hard evidence of such improvement.

Assuming the Russian court got it right and Pope really was a spy, then I couldn't really blame the Russians for executing him. Ideally, he ought to be treated leniently because Russia and the U.S. aren't the same threat to one another that they were in the '50s; as an old democracy and a fledgling democracy, we ought to be natural allies. But the sad fact is that America has done everything possible to fuel the Russian leaders' traditional paranoia: we have expanded NATO to their very doorstep, jumped into bed with all their dearest enemies, and conducted a war against their traditional ally Serbia without their consent. I honestly don't think Washington has any hostile designs on Russia, but the Russians at this point have good reason to believe otherwise. If Pope was a spy, he got off much easier than he had any right to expect.