Let's talk about salsa dancing!

[Windwalker]

I've been taking salsa lessons for a couple months now, and it's amazing to me that I only now really discovered how much fun dancing is. Any other Dopers into it?

At the beginning, it was pretty embarrassing to go to social dances. The basic pattern was: ask a girl to dance, completely stumble through a 7-minute song while losing the beat 15 times and going through 10 basics in a row before figuring out the next move. And only having 2-3 moves, causing the girl to roll her eyes as you do a standard right turn for the 20th time. And then it turning out that the girl is an amazing dancer, as I watch in awe as she tears up the dance floor with a competent lead.

I feel like this period REALLY sapped my will to dance, and I was very close to quitting. But one night, after several disastrous dances in a row, something just clicked. Oh, it was nothing special, really. But I managed to actually feel the beat for most of the song, most of my leads were understood and executed with a passing semblance of crispness. A couple of times, the moves actually flowed into each other, and it actually felt like we really had a purely physical communication that was truly responding to the music. Right then and there, I became hooked.

I'm still not very good, but I think I'm over that hump of embarrassment and timidity. I'll ask anyone to dance now, even one that has competed in international competitions, and feel no shame about it. Though, to be fair, those super-good follows are still sometimes struggling to mask their boredom. But I have no problem being their charity dance for the night!

Some questions:

- It seems that salsa music is often pretty hard to stay on beat to, since the rhythm itself is so syncopated; swing, waltz, cha cha, bachata, etc. all seem much easier to follow. Is this something you just have to get used to (everyone tells me this), or are there any tricks to it?

- What do you guys out there do when the follow has limp limbs, offering no frame or resistance? I've heard mixed things about whether or not you should try to give advice, and I'm curious as to what y'all think.

[Cat Whisperer]

My husband and I took a couple of years of latin dancing, and we love it, too. Any time we get up and do a merengue or salsa at a Christmas party or something, it always wows the crowd (and we're truly not that good). We don't find the beat of a salsa hard to follow at all, but we do have to be careful to not attempt a really fast salsa - we're not in any shape to be going THAT fast!

I don't know what you can do about a limp-limbed follow; you have my sympathy, though. It's hard to lead someone who doesn't know enough to keep their arms and frame firm - I'd try telling them to firm it up, but only if you don't care if they get insulted or not.

[amarinth]

I go through phases, but I've done salsa on and off for years. It's very fun.

Originally Posted by Windwalker

- It seems that salsa music is often pretty hard to stay on beat to, since the rhythm itself is so syncopated; swing, waltz, cha cha, bachata, etc. all seem much easier to follow. Is this something you just have to get used to (everyone tells me this), or are there any tricks to it?

I don't usually have problems finding or following the beat (though I've had problems following leads who can't find the beat). Maybe I've been lucky in the songs that the places that I go play. Maybe if you listen to more salsa music when you're not trying

- What do you guys out there do when the follow has limp limbs, offering no frame or resistance? I've heard mixed things about whether or not you should try to give advice, and I'm curious as to what y'all think.

Do not give advice to anyone who hasn't asked for it. And think twice about giving advice to someone who has.

[KarlGrenze]

Originally Posted by Windwalker

- It seems that salsa music is often pretty hard to stay on beat to, since the rhythm itself is so syncopated; swing, waltz, cha cha, bachata, etc. all seem much easier to follow. Is this something you just have to get used to (everyone tells me this), or are there any tricks to it?

I see it as having a similar rhythm to cha cha cha. Well, or I follow the same rhythm as chachacha, since I learned that later. It is different from others because it is not a 2 count or 4 count combination, it is a 3-count combination.

I'd say, try to follow the rhythm of the percussion (drums or cowbell), since that is the accent. Hitting that accent with your moves.

Now, the rhythm for me is relatively easy to follow, as I've listened to the music all my life and I love it. But really, I didn't become a halfway decent (female) dance partner until I was 23 or so.

In salsa, for the female, it is important to let yourself go. A limp partner IMHO would offer as much resistance as someone who is really pushing opposite the male partner because in both cases, they're making the male partner work extra hard to lead.

[amarinth]

Originally Posted by amarinth

Maybe if you listen to more salsa music when you're not trying

that should be "not trying to dance"

[Sandra Battye]

Remember that every person started out as a beginner, and became the amazing (or not so amazing) dancer they are now. Don't feel bad for being a beginner. It doesn't last long.

If you can, try taking some rumba or cha-cha lessons. The measures are easier to find.

You don't say if you are at social dances in studios or in clubs. If in studios, I think it's more acceptable to offer advice. In either setting, comment along the lines of "I'm a beginner, so if you keep a tighter/firmer frame, it will make it easier for me." Phrase it as something to help you improve.

[Dogzilla]

I think maybe I don't understand the whole "lead" vs. "follow" thing. A friend has been teaching me swing and every now and then he says to me "You're leading." I don't change anything I'm doing, but then he seems happy a few steps after that, so I'm not sure I know how to lead. Or when I'm leading. Because I don't think I understand what the lead is supposed to do and what I'm supposed to do as the follower. All I know is I'm supposed to dance backwards and the "lead" gets to dance with a forward motion.

Or it could just be my rebellious nature; I am not a follower, in general.

Anyway, can anyone esplain?

[KarlGrenze]

In salsa usually the guy leads, the woman follows. This is the standard practice. A good lead will make any mediocre female dancer look pretty dancing, so long as she follows his lead.

It is sort of call and response game... Sort of... A good female dancer knows the steps she's supposed to do with the "lead" the guy gives. A movement, a hand position, some body gesture, footwork, will let the woman know where she's supposed to go. A good lead knows enough to keep the rhythm and has some ideas of what moves would or would not work with it (and at what time).

Now, the same can apply in reverse, but it is much less common. My parents, for example. Mom leads, and dad follows. But dad follows mom so well, that it looks like they're both good dancers, when in fact only one of them is (mom).

And when there are two of the same gender, it goes by mutual agreement. Sometimes they switch back and forth, sometimes the more experienced leads.

[Angua]

I started learning how to salsa dance in February, and go to a load of social/club dances at clubs and studios. My salsa teacher(s) all teach the LA "on-one" club style, with a large portion of merengue, bachata, and chacha mixed in.

One thing my main salsa teacher, C, drummed into me pretty early on was that whilst lessons were a good way to learn the basics, the only way to improve was to practice, practice, practice. And then some. The best way is by dancing with others, and by not being afraid to dance with leads who are "better" than you.

Dogzilla, the lead is the one who calls the shots in salsa. The lead tells the follow when to turn, when they're turning, when the follow's going to do a cross body turn, whether you're going to do a crazy insane turn pattern, or a simple 2 o'clock turn, etc etc. As the follow, your job, as C keeps telling me, is to "do what you're told and look cute whilst doing it". And as a follow, you do dance forward, just on 5 rather than on 1!

My newest thing at the moment is rueda del casino. Basically, Cuban-style salsa, mainly danced in a Cuban step (open breaks/guapeja), but danced as a group, in a circle, with calls, partner swaps, intricate moves, lifts and dips. It rules!

And Amarinth has the right idea with listening to salsa music when you're not trying to dance. Salsa music has a very distinct beat, called the son clave, which, after some practice, you should be able to hear and pick out in a track. If you can hear that, it'll help keep the beat. Its something I've been learning to do recently so I don't rely exclusively on my lead to keep the beat.

[KarlGrenze]

If someone is saying you're leading, and they do not want you to lead, that means you're offering too much resistance to their cues, and that you want to impose your way of dancing to the partner. Again, usually male partner leads in salsa.

Dancing, salsa especially... One of the few activities where I do not mind the guy being in charge.

[KarlGrenze]

Angua, I've found my dancing improves much better if I dance with leads that are better than me. Actually, I'm snotty and only dance with leads better than me. If they're good, they'll pick on my weaknesses fast, and spin me around and make me look cute. Plus, they'll try to teach you a step or two while dancing with you, mostly by repeating it again and again until you get it.

[Angua]

Originally Posted by KarlGrenze

Angua, I've found my dancing improves much better if I dance with leads that are better than me. Actually, I'm snotty and only dance with leads better than me. If they're good, they'll pick on my weaknesses fast, and spin me around and make me look cute. Plus, they'll try to teach you a step or two while dancing with you, mostly by repeating it again and again until you get it.

I try to dance with everyone rather than just leads who are better than me (the salsa community here is small and word gets round fast if you're a snotty follow! ). But yeah, I improve a lot better when dancing with a good lead who knows how to make me look cute and improve my dancing at the same time, but for a while, I was even nervous when dancing with my teacher!

[Dogzilla]

Originally Posted by KarlGrenze

If someone is saying you're leading, and they do not want you to lead, that means you're offering too much resistance to their cues, and that you want to impose your way of dancing to the partner. Again, usually male partner leads in salsa.

Dancing, salsa especially... One of the few activities where I do not mind the guy being in charge.

Ah. This makes sense.

My friend doesn't really communicate his cues very well. He expects me to be able to read his mind, because apparently, his wife can and she knows the dance. So I suppose I'm finding myself leading because it's not obvious to me where he wants me to go, seeing as how he doesn't use his words or anything. I get it now.

[Angua]

Originally Posted by Dogzilla

Ah. This makes sense.

My friend doesn't really communicate his cues very well. He expects me to be able to read his mind, because apparently, his wife can and she knows the dance. So I suppose I'm finding myself leading because it's not obvious to me where he wants me to go, seeing as how he doesn't use his words or anything. I get it now.

Well, he won't use words, but he should be using body language and body cues, like raising your hand and using his hand to tell you which way to spin, tapping your shoulder if he's going to make you do a free turn, etc etc. If he's expecting you to read his mind, then he's a bad lead. Its why many salsa teachers insist that you change partners multiple times during a class.

[Angua]

BTW, this seems to be a pretty good tutorial (with music), at acclimatizing yourself to the son clave phrasing, and how it incorporates into salsa.

[KarlGrenze]

It also happens if somehow the partners are unable to communicate. It has happened to me a few times with partners who were not, really, bad dancers. We just didn't "click".

Angua, if you have a gradient from good to excellent leads, you've been more lucky. Or maybe, we have different expectations. I won't dance with leads that are worse than me because that puts me in a position of me leading, which I dislike. Or follow a clumsy lead and don't look as cute, which I don't like.

[Dogzilla]

Originally Posted by Angua

Well, he won't use words, but he should be using body language and body cues, like raising your hand and using his hand to tell you which way to spin, tapping your shoulder if he's going to make you do a free turn, etc etc. If he's expecting you to read his mind, then he's a bad lead. Its why many salsa teachers insist that you change partners multiple times during a class.

I think I just came to the same conclusion.

That, or he's a bad teacher because he's also tried to teach me some Kung Fu without using many words (if any at all) and then his feedback is, "You're imitating, not doing."

Well, buddy, you've got to tell me what you're trying to get me to do, 'cause otherwise, I'm left with trying to read your mind and your body language and fill in the blanks (why do I want my foot here?) for myself.

This is scary to me, because he's an economics professor. I hope he uses words when he's teaching his econ classes. In his defense, this teaching of kung fu and swing only seems to come up late at night in his garage when we're both hammered and his wife has gone to bed already, so in that state both of our communication skills are suffering. (Yes, I have permission to hang out with my friend's husband when she's not around. He's my friend too. All hands are kept to appropriate places.)

[lalenin]

Originally Posted by Windwalker

- It seems that salsa music is often pretty hard to stay on beat to, since the rhythm itself is so syncopated; swing, waltz, cha cha, bachata, etc. all seem much easier to follow. Is this something you just have to get used to (everyone tells me this), or are there any tricks to it?

- What do you guys out there do when the follow has limp limbs, offering no frame or resistance? I've heard mixed things about whether or not you should try to give advice, and I'm curious as to what y'all think.

I dance every chance I get, and being Cuban and living in south Florida, that's pretty much all the time.

If you're having trouble following the beat in salsa music you're probably just missing the right beat. The way I try to explain it to someone who doesn't dance a lot it's: don't start when you think you should be starting, start a beat later. It seems to work.

Limp limbs? I don't think I've run into that, but if I did I'd probably make her do a lot more turns, no way to do that with limp limbs.

[Dogzilla]

I find, from my zumba classes, that a lot of latin music seems to be danced on a 3-count rather than a standard 8-count. Rather than starting a beat later, it takes me a few seconds to remember that weird/odd count, and then I can fall right in line where I'm supposed to be.

[KarlGrenze]

Weird. The reason I dislike Zumba is because they follow a different beat I would be accustomed to do at the club.

[MacTech]

Isn't it a little....messy.... to be dancing in Salsa?, do you start out with the Mild then step up to Medium and then Hot?, isn't it also a little wasteful of perfectly good food?, I can't see the appeal here...

Which Salsa is the best for dancing in? Chi-Chi's, Pace, some fancy-schmantzy organic brand, or just the cheapo Acme Lots-'O-Veggies brand?

[Angua]

Originally Posted by KarlGrenze

It also happens if somehow the partners are unable to communicate. It has happened to me a few times with partners who were not, really, bad dancers. We just didn't "click".

Angua, if you have a gradient from good to excellent leads, you've been more lucky. Or maybe, we have different expectations. I won't dance with leads that are worse than me because that puts me in a position of me leading, which I dislike. Or follow a clumsy lead and don't look as cute, which I don't like.

I think I've been lucky. I've had some mediocre leads, but I've also had some very good leads, and some downright excellent leads (dancing with the salsa instructors in town is always fun!). There's only one lead who I will not dance with, and he does ballroom salsa and expects me to be a mind-reader. So no dancing with him. I'll even dance with the new/beginner leads, because whilst that doesn't make me look cute, it gives them practice outside of class, and I can, just about, "lead from the follow". It takes more work, but the way I figure it, if I only dance with the brilliant leads, it makes me look like a snotty so and so and nothing much else.

Originally Posted by Dogzilla

Well, buddy, you've got to tell me what you're trying to get me to do, 'cause otherwise, I'm left with trying to read your mind and your body language and fill in the blanks (why do I want my foot here?) for myself.

Exactly. A good lead will give you a good cue and subtle clues (or sometimes not so subtle. I'm looking at you C for getting me to do the right styling in rueda! ) as to what you need to be doing and when. I end up dancing about 5 times a week, so I get lots of practice in too!

I can switch between Zumba and club/studio style pretty easily (heck, on a Monday I go to Zumba, go home, change and eat and am at a rueda lesson within an hour!), but it probably helps that the Zumba teacher is also a salsa dancer, so its all good.

[Dogzilla]

Originally Posted by KarlGrenze

Weird. The reason I dislike Zumba is because they follow a different beat I would be accustomed to do at the club.

I also dislike Zumba because I hate the instructor's style. She's not very precise, so when you're trying to follow unfamiliar steps, she sees something shiny and wanders offline, singing along and waving her arms about and I get totally lost. Most of the rest of the class knows her routines, but I don't attend as often and the newbies are always lost. It seems like she'd rather turn Zumba into karaoke so I basically quit going and am just sticking to pole dancing (which is why I joined that studio in the first place). I also think that sometimes, her beat is really off and that messes me up. Maybe she's using a 3-count and really shouldn't be, but I have no experience with any other Zumba instructor, so I dunno if she sucks or if Latin rhythms are particularly difficult to learn to dance to.

Dancing well can be difficult. Teaching dancing well must be a rare skill.

[KarlGrenze]

Originally Posted by Angua

I'll even dance with the new/beginner leads, because whilst that doesn't make me look cute, it gives them practice outside of class, and I can, just about, "lead from the follow". It takes more work, but the way I figure it, if I only dance with the brilliant leads, it makes me look like a snotty so and so and nothing much else.

Aaaah, wires crossed! Yes, when I took salsa lessons, in the studio, yes, I would dance with others, even the beginners. It is true, gives them practice which is what they need.

But most of my practice comes from the club, with strangers, and unlucky for me, even if I really only want to dance, I get quite a few who ask for a dance hoping for some more. With the good leads, at least, I enjoy a good dance before sending them off.

[Angua]

Originally Posted by KarlGrenze

Aaaah, wires crossed! Yes, when I took salsa lessons, in the studio, yes, I would dance with others, even the beginners. It is true, gives them practice which is what they need.

I dance with the newbies even at club and studio social nights. Its no skin off my nose, and people who know me, know I can dance.

But most of my practice comes from the club, with strangers, and unlucky for me, even if I really only want to dance, I get quite a few who ask for a dance hoping for some more. With the good leads, at least, I enjoy a good dance before sending them off.

Your dance clubs are also meat markets??! I dance both in studio socials and clubs, and was highly resistant to go to clubs precisely because I was convinced that someone would dance and want more. I guess it might be a different culture here, or it might be that our dance community is so small and everyone knows everyone else, but there's really not that vibe in the salsa club nights I go to, even when I'm dancing with people I don't know. Its just all about the dancing. To an extent. No one's tried to hit on me when dancing, but that may be because people figure I'm involved with someone else anyway.

[KarlGrenze]

Eh.. it's just like a regular club? Granted, I do not go to the studio-sponsored nights, but even the salsa lessons offered at a club early in the evening can turn to something more much later. Early in the evening, they teach lessons, are patient, and it's mostly instruction. Later, not so much.

I go to Latin nights or Latin clubs, yes. In cities known to have lots of young people/college towns.

You do realize, for Hispanics, salsa dancing IS one of their club rhythms, right? It's not just ballroom style.

[Angua]

Originally Posted by KarlGrenze

Eh.. it's just like a regular club? Granted, I do not go to the studio-sponsored nights, but even the salsa lessons offered at a club early in the evening can turn to something more much later. Early in the evening, they teach lessons, are patient, and it's mostly instruction. Later, not so much.

I go to Latin nights or Latin clubs, yes. In cities known to have lots of young people/college towns.

You do realize, for Hispanics, salsa dancing IS one of their club rhythms, right? It's not just ballroom style.

Um, yeah. I am not stupid, and like I say, I've been learning club style rather than anything else. I'd be crap in a ballroom situation!

I guess its a difference in culture -- I tend to stick to the studio sponsored club nights where the aim is to dance and have a good time rather than to be clubbing/looking to score as such. And yes, before you ask, there's a large proportion of Hispanic people present. Maybe its the mostly smaller community and the fact I stick to studio socials and studio-sponsored club nights that's the difference.

I mean, don't get me wrong, I'm well aware of the club scene, but I go out to dance and not to be hit on. I guess the smaller community, and everyone mainly knowing everyone else, makes it less likely. That plus it tends to be fairly obvious, even when we try to make it not be, who's dating who!

[Windwalker]

Originally Posted by KarlGrenze

I see it as having a similar rhythm to cha cha cha. Well, or I follow the same rhythm as chachacha, since I learned that later. It is different from others because it is not a 2 count or 4 count combination, it is a 3-count combination.

Oh weird. The salsa I've been learning (and that I've been seeing in the social dances) is all based on 4 counts. 1-2-3, 5-6-7 (where the beat falls on 1, 3, 5, 7).

Originally Posted by KarlGrenze

I'd say, try to follow the rhythm of the percussion (drums or cowbell), since that is the accent. Hitting that accent with your moves.

On songs where the 1 and the 5 fall during the accent (of the percussion or bass, say), I can follow pretty easily. It's on songs where there the accent is not on 1 and 5 that I can get lost in...

Originally Posted by KarlGrenze

In salsa, for the female, it is important to let yourself go. A limp partner IMHO would offer as much resistance as someone who is really pushing opposite the male partner because in both cases, they're making the male partner work extra hard to lead.

Yeah this is the main problem I see at, say, a Friday night social dance, where there are a lot of dancers with not much experience. So many follows don't provide a frame and don't offer any pressure at all from their fingers, which makes it really hard to set up even simple things like open-position right turns or cross-body leads. I think (as someone else in the thread said) suggesting that it would help me for them to be a little more firm is a good idea.

[Windwalker]

Originally Posted by Sandra Battye

Remember that every person started out as a beginner, and became the amazing (or not so amazing) dancer they are now. Don't feel bad for being a beginner. It doesn't last long..

Yeah, I think I'm over that phase now. I can do most of my repertoire without too many problems now, and it's only when trying out new things that we'll stumble around or get off beat. And when at a social dance, I try to limit trying new things out to once or twice a dance, unless the girl seems really good-humored about it all, in which case we often just practice a cool new move like 5-6 times in a row until we can sorta get it.

I love follows who have a good sense of humor, and really hate it when a girl really shows that she thinks you're beneath her...

Originally Posted by Sandra Battye

If you can, try taking some rumba or cha-cha lessons. The measures are easier to find.

I've been slowly picking up cha-cha by osmosis, since cha-cha gets played every so often at the dances. It's very easy to find the beat; in fact, every other partner dance I've ever dipped my toe into has been fairly easy to find the beat. It's just salsa that eludes me sometimes!

Originally Posted by Sandra Battye

You don't say if you are at social dances in studios or in clubs. If in studios, I think it's more acceptable to offer advice. In either setting, comment along the lines of "I'm a beginner, so if you keep a tighter/firmer frame, it will make it easier for me." Phrase it as something to help you improve.

I usually dance at ballroom-style places where they do also hold classes at other times. It's kind of a hybrid atmosphere, I feel, because a lot of people come who don't take classes, and there's even alcohol served.

But anyway, I love that way of putting the advice. I think I'll try paraphrasing that next time I lead a girl who offers jello arms.

[Cat Whisperer]

In the three or four years that my husband and I took dance lessons, I was completely broken of my backleading/anticipating ways - if you don't lead me, I won't go anywhere. My frame is always kept firm and my centre of gravity kept in the middle so I'm ready to go any direction my lead takes me. I should ask my husband how he leads someone with spaghetti arms - if you give them a regular lead, just their arm will move and they won't actually *do* anything.

[amarinth]

Originally Posted by KarlGrenze

I won't dance with leads that are worse than me because that puts me in a position of me leading, which I dislike. Or follow a clumsy lead and don't look as cute, which I don't like.

I find it's a good way to practice following.

The best thing I ever did for following, though, was to take classes as a lead. It was eyeopening how hard it was getting someone to do what you want them to do when they only had 3 choices (it was a beginner class). I think that trying that gave me a lot of insight into how to be a better follow.

Leading is not as much fun as following.

[Windwalker]

Originally Posted by Dogzilla

I think maybe I don't understand the whole "lead" vs. "follow" thing. A friend has been teaching me swing and every now and then he says to me "You're leading." I don't change anything I'm doing, but then he seems happy a few steps after that, so I'm not sure I know how to lead. Or when I'm leading. Because I don't think I understand what the lead is supposed to do and what I'm supposed to do as the follower. All I know is I'm supposed to dance backwards and the "lead" gets to dance with a forward motion.

Or it could just be my rebellious nature; I am not a follower, in general.

Anyway, can anyone esplain?

KarlGrenze explained it well, but I'll add that one of the harder things at the beginning for a lead is to make your leading motions decisive and unambiguous. A lot of beginning leads are very timid with the amount of pressure they apply, but I've found that more often than not, follows appreciate a good hearty push or pull for cross body leads, open breaks, etc. This applies doubly for multi-spin axle turns, in which you need to keep a good sustained pressure while helping the follow keep her balance.

Also, as a lead, you have to make sure that what you're trying is not too hard or potentially painful for the follow. Being spun around for a 1080 degree turn when you don't have the mechanics for it could be disastrous. Doubleplus bad if you're not even executing the lead's part properly, either!

As a random aside, I think it's interesting how follows in salsa get virtually no say in what moves are performed, unless the lead disengages for a solo break or something. Sure, ladies get to do all sorts of cool styling, but everything I've been taught so far has led me to believe that it's not kosher for them to try backleading or get in a sort of wrestling match with the lead. Not very feminist of salsa, innit?

[Windwalker]

Originally Posted by Angua

And Amarinth has the right idea with listening to salsa music when you're not trying to dance. Salsa music has a very distinct beat, called the son clave, which, after some practice, you should be able to hear and pick out in a track. If you can hear that, it'll help keep the beat. Its something I've been learning to do recently so I don't rely exclusively on my lead to keep the beat.

That's a really good idea. Any recommendations for albums?

[Windwalker]

Originally Posted by KarlGrenze

Angua, I've found my dancing improves much better if I dance with leads that are better than me. Actually, I'm snotty and only dance with leads better than me. If they're good, they'll pick on my weaknesses fast, and spin me around and make me look cute. Plus, they'll try to teach you a step or two while dancing with you, mostly by repeating it again and again until you get it.

Wow, I'm curious. Do you actually decline requests to dance? What do you usually say, and how do they take it?

I ask because I've never been declined a dance, unless the follow was (legitimately) sitting out the dance to rest, was practicing moves in front of the mirror, or was in the process of leaving or arriving. And this applies to even my first time out social dancing, when I completely stunk up the place. I've never had the experience of being declined, and then seeing her immediately dance with someone else.

[CanvasShoes]

Originally Posted by Windwalker

I've been taking salsa lessons for a couple months now, and it's amazing to me that I only now really discovered how much fun dancing is. Any other Dopers into it?

At the beginning, it was pretty embarrassing to go to social dances. The basic pattern was: ask a girl to dance, completely stumble through a 7-minute song while losing the beat 15 times and going through 10 basics in a row before figuring out the next move. And only having 2-3 moves, causing the girl to roll her eyes as you do a standard right turn for the 20th time. And then it turning out that the girl is an amazing dancer, as I watch in awe as she tears up the dance floor with a competent lead.

I feel like this period REALLY sapped my will to dance, and I was very close to quitting. But one night, after several disastrous dances in a row, something just clicked. Oh, it was nothing special, really. But I managed to actually feel the beat for most of the song, most of my leads were understood and executed with a passing semblance of crispness. A couple of times, the moves actually flowed into each other, and it actually felt like we really had a purely physical communication that was truly responding to the music. Right then and there, I became hooked.

I'm still not very good, but I think I'm over that hump of embarrassment and timidity. I'll ask anyone to dance now, even one that has competed in international competitions, and feel no shame about it. Though, to be fair, those super-good follows are still sometimes struggling to mask their boredom. But I have no problem being their charity dance for the night!

Some questions:

- It seems that salsa music is often pretty hard to stay on beat to, since the rhythm itself is so syncopated; swing, waltz, cha cha, bachata, etc. all seem much easier to follow. Is this something you just have to get used to (everyone tells me this), or are there any tricks to it?

- What do you guys out there do when the follow has limp limbs, offering no frame or resistance? I've heard mixed things about whether or not you should try to give advice, and I'm curious as to what y'all think.

Bless you darling man....bless you!!! In my book, any man who has mastered at least a few good lead cues and dance moves and can keep the count most of the time is welcome as there are FAR too few men in this day and age who don't have the whole "dancing is teh gay" attitude about it.

Hmmmm....I've not had a whole lot of salsa, cha-cha, swing, and nightclub 2step, are my faves, but from the times I've done it, it seemed as if it were a pretty simple rhythm, sort of like a cha-cha without the triplet count, and slightly more involved than the Merengue if I remember? Yeah, it seemed as if there was a lot of the "just feel it" type attitude to this dance. You'll pick it up in no time.

Hmmmmm, as to giving advice to a weak or unobservant follow? I don't know, it depends upon how into it the girl is. Many eons ago was when I first started learning to couples dance. Prior to that I had only had training in ballet, jazz and gymnastics type dance, so I had not a CLUE what lead cues meant nor how to follow them. It's possible that these girls are just used to the whole "club, bootie shaking" kind of dancing and don't realize that there's somewhat of a science to couples dancing?

I know I didn't entirely know what it meant when the lead lifted his arm! This happened to me with one guy, before I started taking lesson. This poor guy I was dancing with sweetly said "boy, I just can't get a double turn out of you can I?" My little blonde brain had the immediate light bulb moment....."OH, DERRRRR arm up means I'm supposed to keep spinning...sheesh". After that I started paying more attention to the cues. I still didn't really know what a lot of them meant, but just that I was paying more attention and trying to interpret them helped. And not too long after was when I started getting serious and taking lessons.

Are these girls that are in your classes, or girls at the nightclub?

Are you the type that can pull off a funny, flirty "this is MY dance frame, this is YOUR dance frame (you know, from 'Dirty Dancing'?)" line? You might try that. I'd laugh and do a better job following if a guy did something like that. Or maybe a gentle "hey, if you tighten up your arm, I'll bet I can turn you better, what do you think"? (make it you and her trying to figure things out together, that sort of thing).

My old dance partner/ former boyfriend was an excellent lead, but he had a terrible time picking up the first few counts of a song, so I'd always have to start if off "5, 6, 7, 8" or "quick/quick, slow slow"...

When he was being a snot I'd say something silly like "Quack QUACK, slow slow". Getting him laughing always vastly improved our practice sessions!

Sorry, not being a guy, or a lead, that's about all I've got.

[KarlGrenze]

Originally Posted by Windwalker

Wow, I'm curious. Do you actually decline requests to dance? What do you usually say, and how do they take it?

Well, I've been declined plenty of times, and that's supposed to be more uncommon than the other way around. So I don't feel bad doing something that has been done to me. And I don't usually get asked to dance, either. There are limited numbers of good dance partners.

The ones whom I decline usually are the ones I've never even once seen in the dance floor. They're on the sidelines for most of the songs. So when they ask me out, I ask them if they know how to dance. Most of them say they're not good/don't know. I tell them the truth, which is "I don't lead, sorry." Sometimes I ask them if they do know other dance (bachata and merengue are usually easier) and tell them I'd dance that with them instead. And yes, usually even if I get asked right after declining someone, I'll tell the guy to wait until the next song.

[KarlGrenze]

Originally Posted by Windwalker

That's a really good idea. Any recommendations for albums?

Not being Angua, but being a fan of salsa, here are a few examples (these are mostly Puerto Rican style, which vary a bit from Colombian style):

For romantic salsas:

Marc Anthony- especially his older CDs "Todo a su tiempo" and "Contra la corriente"

Gilberto Santa Rosa- I love different songs from different CDs, and they're usually his hits/singles, so if you get a "Best of" compilation that should have many of his good songs.

Victor Manuelle- Get a "Best of/Greatest hits" too. And he and Gilberto Santa Rosa did a live CD together which is good, IMHO. And his single live album was good too. I think they're titled "Live at the Carnegie Hall" or "Live at the Madison".

For a mix of old time silly, with some political commentary and some romantic songs:

Hector Lavoe- He's dead, so again, a "Greatest Hits" should have many of his best records. He has a lot of songs, though, and most of them good, IMHO, so you shouldn't go wrong. Look for the song "Aguanile" among the ones in the album.

Gran Combo de Puerto Rico- Definitely need a "Greatest hits" here, they've been playing for decades and decades.

Straight up political/social commentary:

Rubén Blades- Again, lots of albums, compilations, and live CDs. A very old one, Siembra, from the 70s, has many of his greatest hits. Another one is a double CD of Maestra Vida, but that's definitely a concept album. The title song, though, is the best of the whole album.

[KarlGrenze]

Originally Posted by Windwalker

As a random aside, I think it's interesting how follows in salsa get virtually no say in what moves are performed, unless the lead disengages for a solo break or something. Sure, ladies get to do all sorts of cool styling, but everything I've been taught so far has led me to believe that it's not kosher for them to try backleading or get in a sort of wrestling match with the lead. Not very feminist of salsa, innit?

Isn't that true for most couple dancing? Someone has to lead, and someone has to follow. Two leads get you nowhere.

[Angua]

KarlGrenze has some good ideas for songs. Personally, I'm a big fan of Marc Anthony's stuff, but I do random things like pick a salsa track on my Pandora and get Pandora to come up with stuff for me. In fact I have Contra La Corriente playing right now.

I think I've declined a dance twice. The first time was because the song was a cha-cha song, which isn't my strong point, and once was because I'd just arrived, and was chatting with a friend.

I need to practice my turns. I have an unfortunate habit of lifting the non-pivot foot too far off the ground, which makes it difficult to get back onto one. I'm slowly being broken of the habit, but its taking practice and really wearing out my dance shoes

Originally Posted by Windwalker

As a random aside, I think it's interesting how follows in salsa get virtually no say in what moves are performed, unless the lead disengages for a solo break or something. Sure, ladies get to do all sorts of cool styling, but everything I've been taught so far has led me to believe that it's not kosher for them to try backleading or get in a sort of wrestling match with the lead. Not very feminist of salsa, innit?

Sometimes you just have to let the man take over and let him tell you what to do! Its OK to just shine and look cute in salsa.

[Windwalker]

Originally Posted by KarlGrenze

Not being Angua, but being a fan of salsa, here are a few examples (these are mostly Puerto Rican style, which vary a bit from Colombian style):

Gracias!

Originally Posted by KarlGrenze

Isn't that true for most couple dancing? Someone has to lead, and someone has to follow. Two leads get you nowhere.

True, and I certainly ain't complainin'. I'm just a bit surprised that no one has tried to popularize a version of these partner dances that regularly has the lead and follow switching roles or something. I guess the fundamentalist feminists have bigger fish to fry first.

Originally Posted by KarlGrenze

Aaaah, wires crossed! Yes, when I took salsa lessons, in the studio, yes, I would dance with others, even the beginners. It is true, gives them practice which is what they need.

But most of my practice comes from the club, with strangers, and unlucky for me, even if I really only want to dance, I get quite a few who ask for a dance hoping for some more. With the good leads, at least, I enjoy a good dance before sending them off.

Ah, I hadn't noticed that you were primarily a club dancer. I haven't really ventured out into the club world, but in the ballroom/studio world, I've seen relatively few overt come-ons during the dance. Most everyone there just seems to really enjoy the dancing. Sure, guys will be more likely to talk to and chat up a hot girl after a dance, but it doesn't seem any more prevalent than what would happen at any other social gathering.

How aggressive are they at your clubs?

Originally Posted by KarlGrenze

The ones whom I decline usually are the ones I've never even once seen in the dance floor. They're on the sidelines for most of the songs. So when they ask me out, I ask them if they know how to dance. Most of them say they're not good/don't know. I tell them the truth, which is "I don't lead, sorry." Sometimes I ask them if they do know other dance (bachata and merengue are usually easier) and tell them I'd dance that with them instead. And yes, usually even if I get asked right after declining someone, I'll tell the guy to wait until the next song.

Well, it's nice that you can filter out the true beginners while still being nice about it. However, it's quite possible to be "not good" and still know how to lead some basic moves. Though I guess if they describe themselves as such, they probably never press the issue! I know I certainly wouldn't' have. But now I just don't care and will ask anyone for a go, since I tend to learn the most with good follows, anyway (if something goes wrong, I KNOW it's my fault, instead of it potentially being either one of us). I've lost my dancing shame, and I'm much much happier for it.

[KarlGrenze]

Originally Posted by Windwalker

How aggressive are they at your clubs?

Usually they are not that aggressive, and will not press if you turn them down. But, letting them dance with you increases their persistence. Turn them down early, they'll go away. Let them dance, they may keep shooting for more. But even then, they'll go find someone else. It's not as if there is a shortage of pretty females at a club, while the opposite is true.

What I found amusing was when they were hitting on me, next to my (now ex-) partner. He and I would dance with each other and others throughout the night, but after the night ended would end up together.

"Would you like private lessons? Do you know I give them?" "Really? Are you as good as (my partner's name)?"

As to the last question. Well, it's not as if the beginners at the places I go have a deep unwavering desire to learn. They're more interested in learning a phone number than a few new moves. OTOH, the ones who are on the dance floor the most usually do want to dance (getting something else would be a bonus). I have served as lead/follow teacher to a few friends, but since I don't teach lead, I cannot guide them for more than "This is basic footwork". I have friends who are better dancers and can do more with them.

[Cat Whisperer]

You kind of have to check your feminism at the door for any type of ballroom or latin dancing - the guy leads, and that's just the way it is.

[KarlGrenze]

True, and I certainly ain't complainin'. I'm just a bit surprised that no one has tried to popularize a version of these partner dances that regularly has the lead and follow switching roles or something. I guess the fundamentalist feminists have bigger fish to fry first.

I think leads may change in the rueda style, but still remains with the guys. And like I said, if in a specific couple the female leads better, they may dance it that way. Good thing because I don't think dad would endure being the lead any more than my mom would like being lead by clumsy left feet.

Speaking of gender politics, I'd love to see a drag king do a salsa dance number, all Latin lover style. In fact, that's what I was hoping to see last time I went to a combined drag queen/king show.

Instead, I was tortured by drag kings imitating angsty male teenagers. So drag queens get to be confident sexual femme fatales, and drag kings are... what not even male teenagers want to be?

[Angua]

Originally Posted by KarlGrenze

I think leads may change in the rueda style, but still remains with the guys.

Yeah, in rueda style, the leads do rotate around your circle, but its always the guy who leads. Its just the guy who's leading you changes, either by "handing you over" to the next guy (eg in the "damé" style moves) or by doing a "switch n ditch", where he switches places with you and moves on to the next girl (enchuffa doble, adios, etc). But its always the guy who leads, and the guy who initiates the changeover.

[Windwalker]

Originally Posted by Angua

KarlGrenze has some good ideas for songs. Personally, I'm a big fan of Marc Anthony's stuff, but I do random things like pick a salsa track on my Pandora and get Pandora to come up with stuff for me. In fact I have Contra La Corriente playing right now.

Thanks, I'll definitely give the guy a chance.

Originally Posted by Angua

I need to practice my turns. I have an unfortunate habit of lifting the non-pivot foot too far off the ground, which makes it difficult to get back onto one. I'm slowly being broken of the habit, but its taking practice and really wearing out my dance shoes

Yeah, I sympathize completely with you follows and all the axle turning you end up doing. We've been working on that as leads in class and it's pretty brutal. Even just a single 360 left pencil turn is giving me no end of trouble. I've tried all the tricks they suggest, including spotting, leading with the shoulder, keeping my axis as straight as possible, holding the raised foot near the pivot foot pointing straight down... It still usually ends with a stumble and a dazed head. I guess it's just practice practice practice, right?

[Windwalker]

Originally Posted by CanvasShoes

Bless you darling man....bless you!!! In my book, any man who has mastered at least a few good lead cues and dance moves and can keep the count most of the time is welcome as there are FAR too few men in this day and age who don't have the whole "dancing is teh gay" attitude about it.

Hehe, thanks, but I really don't think it's all that odd. Whenever I go out salsa dancing, I usually see more guys out there than gals. You're right that some guys won't do it out of timidity or machismo, but there seem to be more than enough hombres to go around, at least in my neck of the woods. It's kind of annoying, actually, because in order to get a dance, you often have to assault the girls right as the song ends; otherwise they'll get snatched up. Especially the good ones. DOUBLE ESPECIALLY the good pretty ones!

Hell, I went out dancing once with an attractive female friend who is not terribly into salsa, but had a lot of ballet training, and is thus still extremely impressive on the dance floor. I got to dance with her exactly twice; once at the beginning and once right before we left. She literally had a guy asking her within 3 seconds of a song ending. She was too nice to ever refuse, so she would have to drink her water, adjust her shoes and blouse, etc. while there was a guy waiting for her, the entire night. The only time we really got to hang out and talk was when we were waiting for the bathrooms outside!

Originally Posted by CanvasShoes

Hmmmm....I've not had a whole lot of salsa, cha-cha, swing, and nightclub 2step, are my faves, but from the times I've done it, it seemed as if it were a pretty simple rhythm, sort of like a cha-cha without the triplet count, and slightly more involved than the Merengue if I remember? Yeah, it seemed as if there was a lot of the "just feel it" type attitude to this dance. You'll pick it up in no time.

The thing is, I can count it perfectly fine if I'm not dancing, but when I am, I'll sometimes brick a move, get off the beat, and then be at a loss as to where the one is. Some salsa songs have pretty obvious beats that make it easy to get back into it, but some... do not. At least to me. I guess the thing is to just listen to more salsa music, as others have suggested.

Originally Posted by CanvasShoes

Are these girls that are in your classes, or girls at the nightclub?

Are you the type that can pull off a funny, flirty "this is MY dance frame, this is YOUR dance frame (you know, from 'Dirty Dancing'?)" line? You might try that. I'd laugh and do a better job following if a guy did something like that. Or maybe a gentle "hey, if you tighten up your arm, I'll bet I can turn you better, what do you think"? (make it you and her trying to figure things out together, that sort of thing).

Nice, though I'm not sure if I AM the type! I actually have a really hard time dancing and making semi-intelligent conversation at the same time. It's like two separate parts of my brain that don't want to be active at the same time. I honestly feel like a retard sometimes when my follow tries to have a nice chat while we're going at it. I either just smile and nod, mumble an occasional affirmative, and keep dancing. Or I'll try and talk to her and have to resort to doing basics over and over again.

[Windwalker]

Originally Posted by Angua

Yeah, in rueda style, the leads do rotate around your circle, but its always the guy who leads. Its just the guy who's leading you changes, either by "handing you over" to the next guy (eg in the "damé" style moves) or by doing a "switch n ditch", where he switches places with you and moves on to the next girl (enchuffa doble, adios, etc). But its always the guy who leads, and the guy who initiates the changeover.

That sounds really fun. Are the people who do it supposed to be fairly skilled, or are newbie leads usually welcome in these circles, too?

[Angua]

Originally Posted by Windwalker

Yeah, I sympathize completely with you follows and all the axle turning you end up doing. We've been working on that as leads in class and it's pretty brutal. Even just a single 360 left pencil turn is giving me no end of trouble. I've tried all the tricks they suggest, including spotting, leading with the shoulder, keeping my axis as straight as possible, holding the raised foot near the pivot foot pointing straight down... It still usually ends with a stumble and a dazed head. I guess it's just practice practice practice, right?

Yep, practice, practice, practice. And in my case, letting the non-pivot foot skim the ground rather than just lift it up. Helps me get back on one on time, and for my lead to mark one properly after a turn too.

Originally Posted by Windwalker

That sounds really fun. Are the people who do it supposed to be fairly skilled, or are newbie leads usually welcome in these circles, too?

Rueda is a lot of fun -- I love it to bits. We tend to do it more as an exhibition piece with leads and follows who've practiced together as a circle, with our own specific set of styling for both leads and follows, but we do get chance sometimes to do it on the dancefloor too. I doubt that you'd be able to simply step into a rueda circle without knowing the specific set of calls, moves and stylings for that circle. There are some standard calls, but each circle is essentially unique with its own twists on calls, stylings, moves, etc. If you're interested, your best bet would probably be to find someone already in a rueda circle, ask to join and learn their calls and stylings. The circle I ended up in is co-ordinated by a close friend who also happened to be the guy who first taught me how to salsa. Even though I was a relatively new dancer (had only been dancing 3.5 months at that point), because I knew someone, I was able to join. It is a lot of fun, both to dance and to watch, but its beauty relies on its synchrony, timing, and the skill in which all the dancers dance together.

[Sandra Battye]

Back in the day, we used to have good-natured disagreements over who had the tougher job- the leaders or followers. (We had all been dancing ballroom/Latin less than 3 years at the time. This was at least 15 years ago.) Since then, I've taught middle-schoolers the basics of salsa and swing. It is VERY hard (for me, anyway) to reverse my thinking and take the leader role. I was a natural follower, it required a lot of practice to become a semi-competent leader. Either role is hard; it can be made harder if the role is forced on you by gender when your natural proclivity is the opposite.

OP, right now leads consist of thinking about a turn, sticking your hand up and when she's ready she turns. Eventually, the timing becomes more precise and the use of basic moves/turns becomes automatic. You'll only have to concentrate on the newer moves. It's too soon to try this, but when you are feeling more comfortable with dancing you should try following or take some private lessons with a partner. You'd be surprised how your leading skills will improve by learning how the woman follows the lead. And followers will improve by learning how leaders lead.

[Windwalker]

Originally Posted by Sandra Battye

OP, right now leads consist of thinking about a turn, sticking your hand up and when she's ready she turns. Eventually, the timing becomes more precise and the use of basic moves/turns becomes automatic. You'll only have to concentrate on the newer moves. It's too soon to try this, but when you are feeling more comfortable with dancing you should try following or take some private lessons with a partner. You'd be surprised how your leading skills will improve by learning how the woman follows the lead. And followers will improve by learning how leaders lead.

I definitely agree! I've actually done a little following. It's happened when I bring a non-salsa friend out dancing to a ballroom social, and they have like a 30-60 min beginners' lesson (aimed at 1st-time salsa-goers) before the dance. Sometimes we don't have enough follows and I volunteer to be one, because I'm enrolled in an actual course and don't need the lesson.

I'm really glad the couple of times I did it, because it really showed me the type of things that I wanted from my lead. Having a signal BEFORE the one or the five helped me so much to prepare to be spun or moved around. And it was nice to feel how much pressure was comfortable; the beginning leads were all way too gentle. And with me being a guy, they were probably even more gentle with the ladies!

It definitely gave me a lot to think about, especially about finding a way to pre-signal or prepare moves to make it easier for the follow. It's doubly important for combos. A simple example: a move requires me to raise my follow's and my arm on one, to turn and go underneath and kind of pull her along (whatever, it's hard to explain). Something that made it so much more fluid and easy was to simply finish the previous move with the arms already up and keep them up as I went into the move in question. It's my default reaction at the end of a move to go back in basic mode, but now I try to consciously think about what's best to prepare for the next combo. And it helps the follow prepare too, because when you keep the arms raised, she knows something's up and can thus know not to do a time-consuming flourish or something (which has happened to me).

It's so fun to have these little revelations and be able to put them into practice immediately. And there's something immensely gratifying about leading a move in a way that makes it easy for the follow while also making her look really good. Some really beautiful smiles can be had.