If you could vote for one, and only one, of either Mike Mussina or Curt Schilling to beenshrined in Cooperstown, which one would you pick?
In terms of raw (regular-season) statistics, they’re close to a wash; Mussina leads in innings pitched, 3562 to 3261; Schilling is slightly ahead in ERA+, 128 to 123.
Given that, my vote goes to Schilling based on their respective postseason records.
Schilling. No contest.
6× All-Star selection (1997, 1998, 1999, 2001, 2002, 2004)
3× World Series champion (2001, 2004, 2007)
2001 World Series MVP
2001 NL TSN Pitcher of the Year
2001 Roberto Clemente Award
2001 Babe Ruth Award
2001 Branch Rickey Award
2001 Hutch Award
1995 Lou Gehrig Memorial Award
1993 NLCS MVP
Career postseason record of 11–2
As opposed to:
Mike Mussina -
5× All-Star selection (1992, 1993, 1994, 1997, 1999)
7–8 record and 3.40 ERA, with 142 strikeouts in 22 career postseason games
0 World Series Titles
Don’t get me wrong, I was always a fan of Moose, but the numbers easily favor Schilling. By a LOT.
A more interesting argument would be Curt Schilling vs. Tom Glavine. (Where I’d go with Glavine and his extra half a career, despite the postseason Schilling heroics).
Schilling.
Schilling. Mussina doesn’t even have a ring, does he?
I wouldn’t say it’s a LOT. A lot would be Glavine over Schilling, or Steve Carlton over Catfish Hunter.
Schilling and Mussina are quite close. Schilling won three World Series titles but that’s not Curt Schilling’s accomplishment alone, after all. I put Schilling a hair ahead for his postseason heroics and the fact he was a tiny bit better (in a slightly shorter career) but it’s a close call. You’re also leaving out things that don’t fit with your argument, mentioning that Schilling won the Branch Rickey Award, which has nothing to do with baseball-playing ability, but not mentioning that Mussina won seven Gold Gloves.
I think both are legitimate candidates.
Really? That wouldn’t be interesting at all. Glavine in a complete rout, and I despise the Braves, and love Schilling and the Phils.
Joe
Okay, if we’re voting for the Gold Gloves HOF he’s got my vote. But the fact is, he was a great REGULAR season pitcher, fair-to-middling POST season pitcher. If you look at the numbers that matter, Schilling was money when it counted.
Schilling: 3 rings
World Series MVP
Moose: 0 rings
End of story.
Yeah, but at least there you’d have an argument about how much you’d weight regular season versus post-season; Cy Young awards versus world series rings, and all that. In the case of Mussina versus Schilling, they’re really very even on regular season performance, so there’s really nothing to put on Mussina’s side (well, the 50 wins if you think wins are a meaningful statistic which they aren’t) to balance against Schilling’s postseason performance.
This is just silly. As RickJay said, there is good reason to take account of Schilling’s postseason performance in making this evaluation, and particularly his MVP award, but to reduce it to the number of rings the way you do is stupid.
Pitchers with 4 World Series rings:
Orlando Hernandez
Jeff Nelson
Mike Stanton
Pitchers with 0 World series rings:
Juan Marichal
Phil Niekro
Gaylord Perry
You don’t really believe that. David Eckstein’s a WS MVP; so are Cole Hamels, Livan Hernandez and Josh Beckett. Andy Pettitte has 5 rings, El Duque has 4, and each of those two pitched well to earn those rings. End of story, everybody’s better than Mussina? Of course not. Mussina was great in the postseason anyway.
What makes Schilling clearly better for me is the level of dominance he reached around the turn of the century. Mussina’s had a great career but over any given stretch of time there have been a handful of pitchers as good or better. Schilling’s 2001-2004 were really special - an ERA right around 3, WHIP flirting with 1, and a preposterous strikeout/walk. If Randy Johnson hadn’t been winning 4 consecutive Cy Youngs at the time, there is a real argument to be made that Schilling could have grabbed a bunch himself (he finished 2nd 3 times as it stands). And that’s one level of performance higher than Mussina ever achieved.
Interestingly, though, according to WAR Mussina’s been a more valuable player over his regular season career, and adjusting for the difference in innings he still stacks up pretty well.
Schilling spent the majority of his career in the weaker NL throwing against pitchers, whereas Mussina spent his entire career in the AL East. I think that has to be taken into consideration when comparing numbers.
Agree with mhendo and Jimmy Chitwood on the postseason aspect.
Myself, I’ve got Schilling ahead strictly on regular season numbers. Simply put, he was clearly a level or two better than Mussina on an inning for inning basis, and Moose’s slight longevity and consistency advantages don’t nearly offset that, IMO.
And have a gander at Schilling’s 2002 sometime-it’s the highest K/BB ratio ever recorded in a full season-and he finished second in the Cy Young voting on his own team.
Of couse, Cliff Lee is doing his best to double Schilling’s record up this year.
Fair enough. But you still voted for Schilling, right?
I’m not basing my vote purely on WS rings, despite what I’ve presented. Fact is, I’ve been following the O’s my whole life, and I love Mussina as a player, even when he ran to the Yankees to chase a ring like so many other players (which I honestly can’t blame him for. I think he deserved to get a title under his belt; he was a great player and he was never going to get one in Baltimore), but there’s still no question whatsoever whose career stands out between these two and everyone knows it.
Does it matter? The baseball HOF is like the town bicycle.
I dunno how you’re defining “Full season,” but the record for a pitcher who qualified for the ERA title is held by Bret Saberhagen, in 1994 (and Saberhagen pitched enough innings to qualify even had it been a 162-game season.)
My initial gut reaction is Schilling due to his highers peak and the whole “Bloody Sock” mystique (the Hall is nothing if not a shrine to the great moments). But looking at them side-by-side, Mussina was clearly the better pitcher overall.
And I had no idea his final season was so good. He could have probably held on and kept pitching for a few more years while Schilling was clearly out of gas after 2007.
Well, the consensus seems to be that Schilling is the better pitcher, so I will hijack my own thread and ask which cap do you think should be on Schilling’s plaque? He spent most of his career in Philly, but his WS MVP was with Arizona (along with 23- and 22-win seasons) and two of his three career WS wins were with Boston.
This is the crux of the matter. Both of them deserve the honor as both were great pitchers. Not Rocket or Maddux, sure, but still great.
But Schilling has the edge in the ‘fame’ category because of his heroics and the bloody sock thing. And those things speak volumes to the voters. There’s a mystique to capturing the imagination of the fans on at least one occasion during your career. Schilling had that a couple of times. Mussina never did.