Medusa's snakes.

[Bad News Baboon]

My daughter (age 6) is in love with these dolls.

The boy, Deuce Gorgon, is apparently the son of Medusa. This had lead to me telling her about mythology.

All is well, learning opportunities and such, until she asks me if Medusa had to feed the snakes on her head.

I said no. The snakes are attached to her head like hair. You wouldn't have to feed them any more than you have to feed your hair. Further, if they do need additional vitamins, then surely it is in the shampoo she uses. Or the hairspray (snakespray?)

Her counter: they have mouths. Mouths need to be fed, it's just that simple. She supposes that Medusa has a tank with mice that she sticks her head in. I'm thinking this is really not very efficient.

Also asked was if a snake grows long enough and whips around to see Medusa's face, does it turn to stone, too? If so, can it be removed?


What do you think?

[shantih]

I think your daughter is very, very smart, is what I think.

As far as eating: no. Where would wastes be excreted? I'm with you; I think the nutrition comes from the inside, as the snakes are attached to Medusa. This is if she needs to eat at all, actually. She is a cursed immortal creature, as far as I know.

And no to the snakes turning to stone if they see Medusa head-on. They are part and parcel of her curse and as such are immune to the effects of it.

[Biffy the Elephant Shrew]

In Neil Gaiman's Sandman a woman wandering in a delusional state finds herself at the house of Medusa's sisters, Stheno and Euryale. While staying at their house, she finds snakes beginning to grow in her hair. As she drinks a glass of water, the snakes dip into it as well. The sequence ends with the woman requesting more water, because "My hair drank most of it."

From this we learn that, although gorgons' snakes don't necessarily eat, they do drink, hence their mouths. And surely any woman who finds her hair getting scaly would use moisturizer...that's just how the snakes keep moist.

[Bad News Baboon]

From what I gather, her sister were immortal, she was not. Why she got the shaft, I don't know. Maybe they ended up getting the shaft - living forever must not be a lot of fun.

I never thought of the poop aspect of the snakes. wow! I can't wait for her to get home and see what she says about this!

[Kamino Neko]

The snakes have mouths, but do they have stomachs?

[tr0psn4j]

Wouldn't shampoo harm the snakes?

Also, does she have to keep her hair/snakes at a certain temperature?

[DocCathode]

Our own Cal Meacham is an expert on Medusa, having written a book on her and appeared on a History Channel documentary on gorgons. Ask him.

[Chronos]

There's a page-a-day calendar in the main office of a cartoon called "The Argyle Sweater". A few days ago, it had Medusa answering the phone, "Hey, can I call you back in a few minutes? I'm putting curlers in my hair". The cartoon shows her hair constricting several rats.

[TWDuke]

Maybe Medusa feeds herself through the snakes' mouths.

(Of course, this is one of those questions where the correct is whatever you want it to be, since it's unlikely to be found in any canonical source, if you can even determine what canon is in this case.)

[tr0psn4j]

Her digestive system goes through her brains? The other issue is that snakes can't really bite chunks off. Medusa would have to swallow stuff. And those swallowed things would have to go through her brain, pushing on it as they go down. Eating sounds like a big headache.

[pancakes3]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1C2M5DDXb4

the video for these dolls is exceptionally disturbing. if i were a girl, and if i were 8 years old, i would be terrified.

[Bad News Baboon]

Originally Posted by pancakes3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1C2M5DDXb4

the video for these dolls is exceptionally disturbing. if i were a girl, and if i were 8 years old, i would be terrified.

We don't have cable tv so I don't even know if this is a show or what. Her main reason to love these dolls is because of Lagoona Blue - the monster of the lagoon character. At my house, anything having to do with the ocean - mermaids, especially mermaids - is what rules. Her dad got her the other dolls because Lagoona was not available for ages. So, she loves the dolls but has no idea of the show...yet!

I asked her where the snake poop goes if the snakes eat... she said "pimples". yikes!

I know there is no right answer, I thought it would be fun to see what you all thought.

[Johnny L.A.]

Originally Posted by Bad News Baboon

At my house, anything having to do with the ocean... is what rules.

Planet Earth and Blue Planet

The Jacques Cousteau Odyssey

[Guinastasia]

Well, we only see the head ends of the snakes -- we don't really see the back tails. Maybe they go all the way down to her intestines, and she expels THEIR waste along with her own? (same with when they pee -- do snakes pee?)

[DocCathode]

Originally Posted by Guinastasia

(same with when they pee -- do snakes pee?)

Indeed they do. Our pet garter snake, Sammy, would urinate on my father everytime he picked him up to clean the cage.

[Malleus, Incus, Stapes!]

Originally Posted by tr0psn4j

Also, does she have to keep her hair/snakes at a certain temperature?

They have her body temperature to draw from, don't they?

[jackdavinci]

I think the real answer is that, back when Medusa was conceived of, suspension of disbelief was much much greater, and there was no need for what we now call fanwank.

That said, should such a thing as Medusa exist, I would expect it to be similar to things such as genetic anomalies with two heads, in which case, the being could be entirely sustained through the ingestion of a single head, however, all of the mouths of the animal would feel the desire to eat and would therefore be subject to appropriate action with regards to that desire...

That said, snakes tend to desire eating appropriate cuisine. While they might snap at mice were they to appear, I doubt they would bother snapping at larger prey like human unless as a defensive measure. And even in the case of smaller prey, if Medusa were already satiated, there would be no reason for them to be hungry.

[Harmonious Discord]

Time to point out fictional Medusa is a fictional character, and the rules for living things in the real world don't always apply.

[WhyNot]

Originally Posted by Bad News Baboon

I asked her where the snake poop goes if the snakes eat... she said "pimples".

I just wanted to quote this so it doesn't get lost, because this answer is made of awesome.

Please let your daughter know that when she's 13, she has my personal invitation to become a Doper.

[CalMeacham]

A couple of answers, depending on your mood:


1.) The archaic, really Classical Greek Gorgon doesn't have snakes in place of hair. I know that sounds heretical, but it's true. If you look at Greek coins, or most ancient artwork (vase paintings and statues), there aren't even snakes in evidence. In those cases where snakes are present, they're in her hair, not in place of her hair. In one of the myths of Hercules, he's given a vial containing the gorgon's hair (and it's not full of snakes). Only in an incredibly tiny fraction of artwork does the gorgon have snakes place of hair -- and I suspect most of those cases are really misinterpretations due to lack of space. So the simple answer is that Medusa's snakes are separate beings from herself (if they're in her hair, she often has them elsewhere -- wrapped around her waist like a belt, or crawling on her arms), who need their own food supply, and can excrete by themselves.

2.) From the Renaissance onwards we've been picturing the Gorgon as having only snakes, and no hair. This is an early manifestation of The Rule of Cool, but it's not all that different from mythological creatures made of others stuck together -- those making the artwork didn't give any thought to its practicalities, or to anything beyond how interesting it looked. In fact, the ancients rarely seemed to take our "science fictional" attitude of trying to imagine what reality would be like for beings radically different for people. A relevant example is the Gorgon's Garden of Statues -- if you have creatures capable of turning people into stone, then there ought to be a lot of such petrified victims around her, right? Certainly modern interpretations like the idea -- it shows up in both versions of Clash of the Titans, not to mention Son of Hercules Against Medusa and more modern variations like The Lightning Thief and Bob Clampett's Porky Pig cartoon where he imagines himself to be Perseus. And in Neuil Gaiman's the Sandman. But you won't find Medusa's Sculpture Garden in ancient literature or art.


So how does its biology work? It's up to the creator of the imaginative work. I can only direct you to the work of that great sage, Charles G. Finney, whose soliloquoy from The Circus of Dr. Lao on the Medusa I used as an intro to my fifth chapter:

The originations of medusas is a puzzle to science. Their place in the evolutionary scale is a mystery. Their task in the great balance of life is a secret. For they belong to that weird netherworld of unbiological beings...An unbiological order, I call it, because it obeys none of the natural laws of hereditary and environmental change, pays no attention to the survival of the fittest, positively sneers at any attempt on the part of man to work out a rational life cycle, is possibly immortal, unquestioinably immoral, evidences anabolism but not katabolism, ruts, spawns, and breeds but does not reproduce, lays no eggs, builds no nests, seeks but does not find, wanders but does not rest. Nor does it toil or spin...Mysticism explains them where science does not.

[CalMeacham]

For a few instances, look at the Wikipedia article on gorgoneion. Note that the only example that shows the gorgon with a headful of snakes dates from the 17th century:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorgoneion

[CalMeacham]

This one is good, too. It's very nearly the image I used on my cover:

http://images.search.yahoo.com/image...sigb=13fks516g



The picture's mislabeled. It's not at Athenian shield. It's pretty obviously a modern copy of the Gorgon face on a piece in the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York. The original is unmistakeable, and is on a small red pottery piece. Interestingly, both the potter and the artist are identified. Note the complete lack of snakes, which is typical.

Although this is not really a shield, the gorgon --generally without snakes -- was one of the most common shield devices. we have plenty of examples of such shields on vase paintings and carvings (And one or two actual shields, not to mention some literary descriptions)

[MrDibble]

Originally Posted by CalMeacham

So the simple answer is that Medusa's snakes are separate beings from herself (if they're in her hair, she often has them elsewhere -- wrapped around her waist like a belt, or crawling on her arms)

Do you think that points to her being related to the Minoan snake goddess?

[CalMeacham]

Do you think that points to her being related to the Minoan snake goddess?

No. I know that's popular in a lot of places, but snakes aren't essential to the gorgon -- and are wholly absent from most depictions of the gorgon. In fact, many (like the one in my last post above) very clearly have beards, and aren't obviously female at all.

[Captain Amazing]

Originally Posted by CalMeacham

No. I know that's popular in a lot of places, but snakes aren't essential to the gorgon -- and are wholly absent from most depictions of the gorgon. In fact, many (like the one in my last post above) very clearly have beards, and aren't obviously female at all.

Doesn't the idea that Medusa's hair was made of snakes date from Ovid? Ovid's telling of the Medusa story is that she was a priestess of Athena, who was raped by Poseidon, and so to punish her for being raped, Athena turned her hair into snakes and made her so ugly anyone who looked at her turned to stone. That's a different origin story than the old Greek one.

[CalMeacham]

Doesn't the idea that Medusa's hair was made of snakes date from Ovid? Ovid's telling of the Medusa story is that she was a priestess of Athena, who was raped by Poseidon, and so to punish her for being raped, Athena turned her hair into snakes and made her so ugly anyone who looked at her turned to stone. That's a different origin story than the old Greek one.

Quite right. You don't want to go to Ovid for your canonical versions of myths (and, I forgot -- he does mention other statues in Medusa's region. But he's the only one, I think). He changed her origin. He also gave the Graeae one tooth as well as one Eye that they held in common. He also has Perseus riding on Pegasus (not in the Metamorphoses, but in one of his erotic poems), which is, I think, its first literary appearance (although ancient artwork hinted at the possibility earlier). In the older versions, Pegasus' connection was that the winged horse was Medusa's child (by way of Poseidon), who was born from Medusa's neck after her decapitation.

[Chronos]

While you're here, Cal, what of the bull-like "Gorgon"? I think I've heard that that one originated from medieval bestiary books, but I'm not sure.

[Captain Amazing]

Originally Posted by CalMeacham

Quite right. You don't want to go to Ovid for your canonical versions of myths (and, I forgot -- he does mention other statues in Medusa's region. But he's the only one, I think). He changed her origin. He also gave the Graeae one tooth as well as one Eye that they held in common. He also has Perseus riding on Pegasus (not in the Metamorphoses, but in one of his erotic poems), which is, I think, its first literary appearance (although ancient artwork hinted at the possibility earlier). In the older versions, Pegasus' connection was that the winged horse was Medusa's child (by way of Poseidon), who was born from Medusa's neck after her decapitation.

Ovid is more fun than the older myths sometimes, though. Ovid also says (regarding Medusa and serpents), in his retelling of the Perseus myth, that some of Medusa's blood fell on Libya, which is why there are so many poisonous serpents there. But he does repeat the idea that Pegasus and Chryasor are born from Medusa's blood.

[CalMeacham]

While you're here, Cal, what of the bull-like "Gorgon"? I think I've heard that that one originated from medieval bestiary books, but I'm not sure.

See my book, pp. 89-92. Athenaeas' 3rd cenbtury novel The Deipnosophists quotes an earlier source (who appears to be real) named Alexander of Myndus on the topic of the Gorgon. Alex says that the Gorgon was a Libyan beast called by the Numideans "the downlooker". It was calf-like or sheep-like in appearance, and it can kill with its breath or by a glance from its eyes.

It seems that Pliny took his info from Athenaus or Alexander, or possible some common source and included it in his Natural History, calling it catoblepas (which is simply "downward-looker" in Greek). He didn't say anything about an association with the gorgon. In the third century, though Aelian, writing his own Natural History, disagreed with Pliny, saying that it was as big as an ox and killed with its breath. From Pliny and Aelian the beast made its way (as with so many) to the medieval bestiaries, and was still being cited in Edmund Topsell's 1607 History of Four-Footed Beasts. Topsell had it as a weird mashup of the classical gorgon and the catoblepas of Pliny and Aelien, with scales, wings(!), swine's teeth, and between the size of a bull and a calf. And it looked like this:

http://www.eaudrey.com/myth/catoblepas.htm

http://www.monstropedia.org/index.php?title=Catoblepas

Speculation that it's really a pangolin depends, I suspect, on those scales, which are clearly taken from the description of the Gorgon in The Shield of Heracles and Apollodorus' Library. So i don't put much stock in it. If you want to explain it, go back to Alexander's scale-less description.

[Acid Lamp]

As an aside. Those oger-ish depictions of gorgons bear a striking resemblance to indonesian spirits. I'm beginning to wonder if there was not a period of great dispersion in ancient Indo-china. I've also seen the same face with slight variations in certain Mayan carvings as well. They also turn up in China, Japan, and the Pacific Northwestern tribes.

[CalMeacham]

As an aside. Those oger-ish depictions of gorgons bear a striking resemblance to indonesian spirits. I'm beginning to wonder if there was not a period of great dispersion in ancient Indo-china. I've also seen the same face with slight variations in certain Mayan carvings as well. They also turn up in China, Japan, and the Pacific Northwestern tribes.

This is a big part of my book. See chapters 4 ("Parallels from around the world"), 8 ("The Face on the Shield"), 9 ("Gorgons and Gargoyles"), and 10 {"What the Gorgon Really Was").

I reject the idea that the Gorgon image is the result of diffusion -- the image doesn't follow the development one would associate with diffusion, where there's a center where the image originated, and the farther away from that you go, the later the first appearance of the image. When the Aztec Calendar Stone was made, it was millenia after the first appearance of the Greek Gorgon, and by then the Greek Gorgon had ceased to look like that image over a thousand years earlier, and you could neither find a path between Greece and Mexico the image might have traveled along, nor any intermediate places where the image might have been recorded. I think that the Indian, Egyptian, Mesopotamian, Chinese, and various American forms were really independent innovations.

[DocCathode]

I LOVE this thread.

I want those dolls and a copy of Cal Meacham's book.

[DocCathode]

I loved D'lauries (spelling is almost certainly wrong) Book Of Greek Myths growing up. I still have my very tattered copy. Would other posters recommend it for teaching the young Baboon mythology?

[CalMeacham]

I loved D'lauries (spelling is almost certainly wrong) Book Of Greek Myths growing up. I still have my very tattered copy. Would other posters recommend it for teaching the young Baboon mythology?

I would. MilliCal loves her copy.



There are quite a few books on mythology. I grew up on Edith Hamilton's and Bulfinch's, myself. but i fell in love with the Paul Hamlyn series on the World's Mythologies, in no small part because they're illustrated with artwork by the people involved, so you can see how they pictured the myths. The one on Greek Mythology is by John Pinsent, anf seems to still be in print; or is at least still available:

http://www.amazon.com/Greek-Mytholog...2592376&sr=1-1

[yanceylebeef]

The real question here, is where ELSE did Medusa have snakes?

[CalMeacham]

The real question here, is where ELSE did Medusa have snakes?

If by that you mean where else in the world did a Gorgon Parallel have snakes on its head? , the answer is "almost nowhere".



The parallels I've noted often have stylized hair (look at the face in the Aztec Calendar stone, or at Bes or Humbaba or Rangda. They're hairy, but not snaky. I have found one or two examples that look at if they have snakes for hair, but they're not in my book, and I haven't got my research notes here. In any event, they're pretty non-characteristic cases, not typical of their region.




I have suggested -- at the end of the book, and only as a suggestion, since i have little to support it -- that one possible inspiration for the S-shaped snakes often drawn around the outside of Gorgoneion might be inspired by the behavior of sawfly larva. When startled, these will move in unison and assume such an S-shape. If you have a number of larva around the edge of a leaf the result looks amazingly like such gorgoneia:

S-shaped snakes around Gorgon Head:
http://www.snible.org/coins/a1.jpg


Sawflies "rearing up" in unison:
http://www.mobot.org/gardeninghelp/i...a-sawflies.pdf

[Galileo]

Uh, I'm pretty sure that yanceylebeef's question was a double entendre. (But not fork-tongued ...)

Anyway, I have another semi-hijack. (Actually, I think that this an attempt at a full-blown hijack.)

Is the interest in Gorgons an interest in:

1. the idea of supernatural creatures themselves
2. the literature and art of supernatural creatures
or
3. the society and culture that believed in the creatures?

Of course, it can be any combination of the above, or something else.

Just wondering. I guess because I can understand an interest in #2 and #3, but it seems to me that some people are fascinated by #1, and I don't understand why. Not that I have to understand everything, or even care about what fascinates other people, but I'm curious.

[yanceylebeef]

Originally Posted by Galileo

Uh, I'm pretty sure that yanceylebeef's question was a double entendre. (But not fork-tongued ...)

Yeah, my apologies. I'm rendering some Aftereffects timelines and I'm bored.

[Freudian Slit]

Snake pubes. Gross.

[CalMeacham]

Snake pubes. Gross.

Right. I'm too literal-minded.





I'm quite certain that I've seen drawings of a Medusa with snaky pubic hairs in some recent comic or webcomic -- so even that idea has been tried out. It might have been one of Jim Balent's Tarot comics. (I've seen Medusa with penises in place of snakes quite a few times. And also Medusa with octopoid tentacles in place of snakes -- which is pretty interesting in view of the number of times people have suggested that her disembodied head was inspired by an octopus or squid.



I don't think anyone's ever drawn her with snakes for underarm hair, though, so that interpretation is free if you want to try it.

[Freudian Slit]

Underarm snakes occurred to me right after. I'm not sure if that's less scary or more.

Also, can they be shaved? Is it painful for them? Do they scream? And is Nair more or less painful for them than shaving or waxing? Does threading work on a snake? Hmmm.

[DocCathode]

Originally Posted by Freudian Slit

Does threading work on a snake?

Now I have an image of a woman donning a blindfold, brandishing threads and defeating Medusa.

[YogSosoth]

Is Catoblepas pronounced exactly the way it sounds? I pronounce it "Cat-tall-blay-pas"

[DocCathode]

Oh, we know that hot oil treatments will turn the snakes into beautiful hair. I'm on dial up, but I'm sure somebody can link to the gorgeous VO5 commercial that proves this.

[CalMeacham]

Is Catoblepas pronounced exactly the way it sounds? I pronounce it "Cat-tall-blay-pas"

I'm sure it's pronounced exactly as it sounds. I don't know if it's pronounced the way it's spelled, though. I'm still having trouble with Cthulhu.



Damned if I know how you pronounce it. I've never heard it come up in conversation. I always say "cat -oh-BLEP-ahss", myself. No one's corrected me, yet. One of these days I'll meet someone to whom this is incredibly important, and there'll be hell to pay.

[DocCathode]

Originally Posted by CalMeacham

I'm sure it's pronounced exactly as it sounds. I don't know if it's pronounced the way it's spelled, though. I'm still having trouble with Cthulhu.

According to Lovecraft, the proper way was to make a 'klootl klootl' noise in the back of your throat.

[Maggie the Ocelot]

I usually pronounce it "ca-TOBLE-pass". But I'm pretty sure that's wrong. I also like to think of it as "cat-o'-BLEP-ass" because that's funny.

[Bad News Baboon]

What a great thread!

This started off as me and my girl having fun with the idea of snakes as hair (and, yes she does understand reality vs. fiction).

Thank you all so much for this great information. I find it fascinating.

I love this age we are in, where you can as a question and get all this information. Viewing movie clips, pictures, etc, at whim is great!

Since we have been looking up Medusa, we have come across pictures of her with a snake tail. This has made her much more interesting because now she is like a "land mermaid".

Again, we realize it is fiction and there are no right answers. I just thought it would be fun to see typical Doper off the wall ideas. My favorite has got to be the snakes as body hair. Now I am wondering if she has teeeeeny tiiiiiiny snakes for eyelashes.

[Chronos]

I'm sure it's pronounced exactly as it sounds. I don't know if it's pronounced the way it's spelled, though. I'm still having trouble with Cthulhu.

Reminds me of bibliophage's "The Aztecs, who kept domesticated turkeys for hundreds of years before the Europeans arrived, had a perfectly good word for the bird in their Nahuatl language: xuehxolotl, which, of course, is pronounced. Don't ask me how it's pronounced, but I'm sure it can be done."

[jackdavinci]

Originally Posted by Freudian Slit

Underarm snakes occurred to me right after.

I think pubic is slightly worse. Also eyebrows are more actively annoying.

But what about vermiform vellus? Tiny but a multitude...