Is it possible I've missed out on this Palin person?

[Unintentionally Blank]

(Fully expecting this to be lobbed over the cubical wall into Great Debates) My impression of her, based on the media's portrayal, is that she was a back-woods electee with a trainwreck of a family that was picked for the veep seat without, perhaps, proper coaching, who then bailed on her elected position to go hit the talk circuit for money, fame, and Teaparty. Unfortunate phrases like 'Drill baby drill' and 'I can see russia from here' flit about as easy targets, but like Bush's quotes of the past.

I then found a rather staunch republican co-worker that says that Palin is mis-represented by a liberal biased media and is actually a smart, amazing, person that really is all that and a bag of political chips.

Can that really be possible? Can this thread be debated in a fair and sane matter? Or will it just become opinion, based on the poster's political leanings?

[BrainGlutton]

I think you'll find the Dopesensus best expressed here.

[Bricker]

Originally Posted by Unintentionally Blank

Can this thread be debated in a fair and sane matter? Or will it just become opinion, based on the poster's political leanings?

Well, I think I've established myself, if not universaly agreed to be a mounumentally fair and sane poster, certainly universally agreed to be a poster who generally sides with Palin's side politically.

And I do not believe it's fair to call her smart. "Amazing," can mean many things, but to the extent it's being used to desribe Palin as a gifted orator, gifted analyst, or gifted theoretician, I would reject those as well.

[Face Intentionally Left Blank]

Originally Posted by Unintentionally Blank

I then found a rather staunch republican co-worker that says that Palin is mis-represented by a liberal biased media and is actually a smart, amazing, person that really is all that and a bag of political chips.

Oh, one guy of her political persuasion says she's smart and amazing. That should be all you need to know.

Palin was flummoxed by the gotcha question, "What newspapers do you read?" She flogged the "death panels" line all through the healthcare debate, despite there being no truth to it. She complains about the president using a teleprompter, when in fact every president from at least Reagan on up (I'm not doing the research on that to determine if it goes back further) used them. She wrote notes on her hand to help her during an interview, and they weren't even notes for TOUGH questions. She is a proponent of teaching Creationism in schools, and thinks dinosaurs and man co-existed on our 6,000 year-old planet.

Is this a whoosh? I'll give you that's she's smart enough to quit office halfway through her term so that she could parlay her fame into a great deal of money.

[Unintentionally Blank]

Originally Posted by Face Intentionally Left Blank

Oh, one guy of her political persuasion says she's smart and amazing. That should be all you need to know.

One _person_ (opinionated, outspoken, female) said she was misrepresented...it was enough for me to post a question...it wasn't enough for me to break out some hard-core research as 'politically motivated' parts of the internet are worse than the most perverted rule 34 sites you can possibly imagine.

[John Mace]

Is anyone completely accurately represented in the media?

Palin put herself in a position waaaaay over her head, fell flat on her face, and established a narrative about herself that she's going to have to live with for a long time. She may be capable of becoming, eventually, a knowledgeable commentator on the political scene, but she's also locked herself into an ideological cul-de-sac, so that's going to be extremely difficult.

Say what you will about someone like Pat Buchanan, there is no doubt the guy is well educated and knowledgeable. Palin comes off as neither.

[BigT]

She's not as stupid as the media will sometimes portray her, but she is more ignorant than average. I doubt you'd think much of it if she was just another person, though. I definitely know (and have been at least casual friends with) plenty of people that are stupider than Ms. Palin.

[Unintentionally Blank]

So...Did she get a divorce (the 'Ms.' above jogged a memory), I thought I'd heard she had, but the person I had a conversation with seemed to disagree and I'll be damned if google was helpful. It shows she is and isn't.

[Face Intentionally Left Blank]

Originally Posted by Unintentionally Blank

One _person_ (opinionated, outspoken, female) said she was misrepresented...it was enough for me to post a question...it wasn't enough for me to break out some hard-core research as 'politically motivated' parts of the internet are worse than the most perverted rule 34 sites you can possibly imagine.

Are you an American? If not, I apologize for the assumption, but if you are, one would think that her being a serious candidate for Vice-President just a couple years back would have been enough to motivate you to do some "hard-core" research. Don't take my opinion on it. Don't take anyone's opinion on it. You have a question. Check a variety of sources, find out what she's said or done, make sure quotes are not taken out of context, and base your decision on that. This country has far too many ppl listening to others about what to think. Most of the reasonable sources of news you should check should not resemble "perverted rule 34" sites. True, many don't resemble news sites either, but they haven't gone full Idiocracy yet.

She's still married to Todd Palin.

[Really Not All That Bright]

Google "mama grizzly". That'll pretty much take care of any lingering doubts you had about Palin. It may also make you hate bears, unfortunately.

[Boyo Jim]

Originally Posted by Bricker

Well, I think I've established myself, if not universaly agreed to be a mounumentally fair and sane poster, certainly universally agreed to be a poster who generally sides with Palin's side politically.

And I do not believe it's fair to call her smart. "Amazing," can mean many things, but to the extent it's being used to desribe Palin as a gifted orator, gifted analyst, or gifted theoretician, I would reject those as well.

I think she IS a gifted orator, in the same sense that Larry the Cable Guy is a gifted orator.

[Unintentionally Blank]

Originally Posted by Face Intentionally Left Blank

Are you an American? If not, I apologize for the assumption, but if you are, one would think that her being a serious candidate for Vice-President just a couple years back would have been enough to motivate you to do some "hard-core" research. Don't take my opinion on it. Don't take anyone's opinion on it. You have a question. Check a variety of sources, find out what she's said or done, make sure quotes are not taken out of context, and base your decision on that. This country has far too many ppl listening to others about what to think. Most of the reasonable sources of news you should check should not resemble "perverted rule 34" sites. True, many don't resemble news sites either, but they haven't gone full Idiocracy yet.

She's still married to Todd Palin.

It may have been a bit pessimistic, but PART of my evalution for the past presidency WAS who would be president in the case that the Vice President ascended to the throne due to aging out or lead-poisoning. I was not impressed with the Republican choice in Veep then, she seemed a last-minute choice to get 'the woman vote' away from Hilary Clinton when there was thought she'd be Obama's choice for veep.

The fact she's still managed to be, if not relevant, at least SEEN in the Political spotlight after that is what instigated the OP.

Idiocracy: The saddest funny movie I've ever seen.

[Baboonanza]

Originally Posted by Boyo Jim

I think she IS a gifted orator, in the same sense that Larry the Cable Guy is a gifted orator.

I think in many people's minds she is an excellent, gifted and enthusiastic orator.

Orator means 'great at blowjobs' right?

[Vinyl Turnip]

Great at ranking them, anyway.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

Originally Posted by BigT

She's not as stupid as the media will sometimes portray her, but she is more ignorant than average. I doubt you'd think much of it if she was just another person, though. I definitely know (and have been at least casual friends with) plenty of people that are stupider than Ms. Palin.

The media doesn't portray her as stupid. All her damage is self-inflicted. The media hasn't invented any of her inane statements or lies. The media just shows her as she is.

[Least Original User Name Ever]

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

The media doesn't portray her as stupid. All her damage is self-inflicted. The media hasn't invented any of her inane statements or lies. The media just shows her as she is.

Right. Repeating back the words that you use, in the order and context in which you use them is completely fair game.

[jk1245]

She's the Paris Hilton of politics. She's famous and wealthy, yet she has no apparent special talents or abilities. Yes, she was a VP nominee, which merits some attention, but that's not typically a path to stardom (quick, without looking, name the last 3 losing VP nominees prior to Palin). Like Paris, there's a good degree of talent, I guess, for marketing or PR in that she's produced a lucrative career out of essentially nothing. She's now famous for being famous, and is cashing that in for every nickel she can get (I'd do the same).

As to the media, they've actually softballed her for the most part, like they do most politicians any more. "What newspapers do you read" isn't really hard hitting journalism.

[Barkis is Willin']

Originally Posted by jk1245

(quick, without looking, name the last 3 losing VP nominees prior to Palin).

Edwards, Lieberman, Kemp? Is that right?

I typically lean right, but I'm not much of a Palin fan. I think she's more of a follower than a leader. She just goes along with whatever is currently getting right-wingers riled up. She doesn't have any new, original ideas. She's not a great speaker. She's not the most intellectual person. She's got a long way to go to convince me, and I suspect most of the R party, that she's worthy of being on the 2012 ballot.

[puddleglum]

Palin has a great talent for identity politics. She is the right wing version of Jesse Jackson, in that she has a base that loves her and a sizable portion of the country that hates her. Like Jackson, the fact that part of the country hates her is part of what endears her to supporters. They feel that the reasons she is looked down on by the coastal elites are the same reasons they are looked down on. Groups of people deemed inferior are generally very loyal and protective to their own, so the more she is attacked the stronger she is. Her inablity to get beyond her base will probably doom her presidential aspiration, but she will be a force in politics as long as she wants to be.
Because her appeal or lack there of is wrapped up so completly in group identity it is impossible to have a rational discussion of her. For instance many seemingly intelligent people think she actually said the "See Russia from my house" thing.

[Kyla]

I've said this before, and I haven't changed my mind: I think Sarah Palin is very intelligent and a clever politician. I also think she's highly incurious about the world and has allowed her religiosity to cloud her judgment. Why bother learning about policy when you can just pray and let god help you decide what course to take? She is the living embodiment of the concept of truthiness, and an attitude I find extremely dangerous in American politics.

FWIW, I used to think she was just a moron. My new opinion is largely drawn from the book Game Change.

[Merijeek]

Originally Posted by Least Original User Name Ever

Right. Repeating back the words that you use, in the order and context in which you use them is completely fair game.

I believe such actions have been redefined as "gotcha politics".

-Joe

[BrainGlutton]

I sometimes suspected W was pretending to be stupider than he was.

I've never thought that about Palin.

[Blank Slate]

I never understood the Palin response to the Couric newspaper question. Could she really not just rattle off: The Washington Post, The Wall Street Journal and The Anchorage Daily Moosefucker? Did she really not even know the names of some major papers?

The funniest part was the Fox News crowd describing Couric's questions as "gotchas!" Really? Gotcha is more along the lines of "Who is the president of Turkmenistan" or "What's your opinion of the repeal of the Glass-Steagall Act" and not "What papers do you read" or "What legislation did John McCain support that favored regulation." Yeesh.

Palin is an empty vessel, a completely transparent being. The only mystery there is what is under that gallon of paint she slops on her face every day

[Starving Artist]

I'm in no way favorable to Sarah Palin's running for president in the future, but take a look at this clip and I think you'll find a Sarah Palin that is considerably different from the image she has today.

[Little Nemo]

Originally Posted by Unintentionally Blank

I then found a rather staunch republican co-worker that says that Palin is mis-represented by a liberal biased media and is actually a smart, amazing, person that really is all that and a bag of political chips.

Ask him this question: "Do you think Sarah Palin is smarter than the average Republican?"

[Boyo Jim]

Originally Posted by Blank Slate

I never understood the Palin response to the Couric newspaper question. Could she really not just rattle off: The Washington Post, The Wall Street Journal and The Anchorage Daily Moosefucker? Did she really not even know the names of some major papers?...

It is possible, though IMO unlikely, she froze up because she couldn't think of a safe answer, one that wouldn't anger some part of the conservative base. The Post and the NY Times would definitely fall into that category, the "liberal media" that is trying to ruin America. The Wall Street Journal, however, would have been a very good choice.

But honestly, I don't think she's that calculating, or was that calculating at the time.

[Baboonanza]

That was pretty much my take on it. I don't think she read any papers, hadn't been briefed on what to say and froze trying to come up with a suitable lie. Not particularly impressive really.

[Kevbo]

"Hairstyle masquerading as a statesman"

-Hunter S. Thompson

[Chronos]

Quoth puddleglum:

For instance many seemingly intelligent people think she actually said the "See Russia from my house" thing.

If by "the 'see Russia from my house' thing", you mean "They’re our next door neighbors and you can actually see Russia from land here in Alaska, from an island in Alaska.", then yes, I do think she said that.

[Starving Artist]

Originally Posted by Chronos

If by "the 'see Russia from my house' thing", you mean "They’re our next door neighbors and you can actually see Russia from land here in Alaska, from an island in Alaska.", then yes, I do think she said that.

How's about that quote in context, chum:

[Charlie] GIBSON: Let's start, because we are near Russia, let's start with Russia and Georgia.

The administration has said we've got to maintain the territorial integrity of Georgia. Do you believe the United States should try to restore Georgian sovereignty over South Ossetia and Abkhazia?

PALIN: First off, we're going to continue good relations with Saakashvili there. I was able to speak with him the other day and giving him my commitment, as John McCain's running mate, that we will be committed to Georgia. And we've got to keep an eye on Russia. For Russia to have exerted such pressure in terms of invading a smaller democratic country, unprovoked, is unacceptable and we have to keep...

GIBSON: You believe unprovoked.

PALIN: I do believe unprovoked and we have got to keep our eyes on Russia, under the leadership there. I think it was unfortunate. That manifestation that we saw with that invasion of Georgia shows us some steps backwards that Russia has recently taken away from the race toward a more democratic nation with democratic ideals.That's why we have to keep an eye on Russia.

And, Charlie, you're in Alaska. We have that very narrow maritime border between the United States, and the 49th state, Alaska, and Russia. They are our next door neighbors.We need to have a good relationship with them. They're very, very important to us and they are our next door neighbor.

GIBSON: What insight into Russian actions, particularly in the last couple of weeks, does the proximity of the state give you?

PALIN: They're our next door neighbors and you can actually see Russia from land here in Alaska, from an island in Alaska.

GIBSON: What insight does that give you into what they're doing in Georgia?

PALIN: Well, I'm giving you that perspective of how small our world is and how important it is that we work with our allies to keep good relation with all of these countries, especially Russia. We will not repeat a Cold War. We must have good relationship with our allies, pressuring, also, helping us to remind Russia that it's in their benefit, also, a mutually beneficial relationship for us all to be getting along.

So, as anyone can see, the way the left has portrayed her comment - which is allegedly that Alaska's proximity to Russia gives her foreign policy experience - is every bit as misleading and dishonest as anything Rush Limbaugh ever says. While I'll grant that she was trying to deflect Gibson's question about what America's policy regarding Georgia and Russia should be, she was nevertheless being quite reasonable in asserting that close neighbors benefit from good relations, and she in no way claimed that being able to see Russia from Alaska gave her any particular standing on foreign policy.

ETA: Has anybody looked at that clip I posted? Or do we all just want to go through life pretending there's no difference between Palin and Tina Fey's impersonation of her?

[Diogenes the Cynic]

She said Russia was "our next door neioghbor." Gibson asked her what insight that gave her into Russia and she said she could see Russia from her house. Along with some stock platitides like we have to keep our eyes on Russia," that was all she had (and lets not forget the gobbledygook about "Putin rearing his head" over Alaska like the Great Pumpkin). She said absolutely nothing of any substance and she never does. She is a fucking dummy and everybody knows it. I don't know why any right wingers even try to deny it anymore. You don't see lefties denying that Bill Clinton as a horndog or that Hillary is a bitch. Just admit reality. It won't kill you.

[Starving Artist]

Did you read what I just posted? She said Alaska and Russia were next door neighbors, not the U.S. and Russia. She said that Russia's proximity with Alaska made her more aware of the need for good relations between the two countries. It's all there in black and white and there is nothing intrinsically wrong with either of those statements.

Having said that, yes, she was evading the question...you know, just like Hillary and Barack Obama do even in formal debates.

And I have no problem admitting reality when it comes to Palin. Same with Christine O'Donnell. But a lot of what gets said about them is either mistakenly wrong, a distortion, or flat-out dishonest. And then when I try to keep it real, people accuse me of defending them. And yes, you may freely admit it if someone says Bill Clinton is a liar and a horndog and that Hillary is a liar and a bitch, but I doubt you'd admit it if someone claimed as fact that they'd murdered Vince Foster.

The things that are said about Sarah Palin in regard to this 'see Russia from my house' bit are nothing but lies and are equivalent in every way to the kinds of lies and distortions that so many people around here love to rail against Rush Limbaugh for.

So, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. If you want to distort or lie about what Sarah Palin has said, then you have no standing to complain when Limbaugh lies about or distorts the facts about Barack Obama or Nancy Pelosi.

As for me, I'll continue to challenge statements about Palin or O'Donnell or any other Tea Partier or conservative when I know their statements are being taken out of context, distorted or lied about, and it'll have nothing to do with their qualifications as candidates.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

It's irrelevant that she said Alaska. The proximity of Russia to Alaska was irrelevant to what she was being asked. That's the point. Nothing was distorted about it, Gibson played the actual video, so I can't see how you can accuse anybody of distorting anything. She was on camera.

[amarinth]

Originally Posted by Starving Artist

ETA: Has anybody looked at that clip I posted?

The clip where she refers to oil as clean energy?

[Starving Artist]

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

It's irrelevant that she said Alaska. The proximity of Russia to Alaska was irrelevant to what she was being asked. That's the point. Nothing was distorted about it, Gibson played the actual video, so I can't see how you can accuse anybody of distorting anything. She was on camera.

It's relevant if you want to try to portray her as thinking Russia and the U.S. are neighbors because she can see Russia from her house. It's also relevant if you want to try to make it look like she's claiming foreign policy credentials because she can see Russia from her house. So we've got three falsehoods here: 1.) She didn't say she could see Russia from her house, but that it was visible from one of Alaska's islands; 2.) She didn't try to claim the U.S. and Russia were neighbors; and 3.), She never claimed nor implied that her proximity to Russia provided her with any sort of standing on foreign policy. None of these accusations are true and the only way they could not be relevant is if the truth means nothing. One would think that, given all her real and supposed weaknesses, people wouldn't have to stoop to distorting or lying about what she's said.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

Originally Posted by Starving Artist

It's relevant if you want to try to portray her as thinking Russia and the U.S. are neighbors because she can see Russia from her house.

Nobody has. The "I can see Russia from my house" line was from Tina Fey on SNL. It was a satirization iof her actual remarks. Maybe you aren't familiar with Saturday Night Live, but it isn't a news show.

The criticism is that she tried to cite that as some kind of credential for claiming foreign policy expertise. And, yes that IS what she did.

[Starving Artist]

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

Nobody has. The "I can see Russia from my house" line was from Tina Fey on SNL. It was a satirization iof her actual remarks. Maybe you aren't familiar with Saturday Night Live, but it isn't a news show.

Why, you young whippersnapper! I was watching SNL while you were still in diapers. (You're 35, right?)

But that notwithstanding, the "I can see Russia from my house" meme has become so widespread and for so long that's taken on the aura of truth. I've seen people here and on t.v. referring to it with dead seriousness. And, you know, given that is place is all about fighting ignorance and all I think it's important to remind people (or educate them, as the case may be) that she did not actually say that, nor did she believe that the nearness of Russia gave her foreign policy expertise.

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

The criticism is that she tried to cite that as some kind of credential for claiming foreign policy expertise. And, yes that IS what she did.

Okay, I'll post one more time what she actually said (and this is according to ABC's website, Gibson's televising of it notwithstanding). From abcnews.go.com:

[Charlie] GIBSON: Let's start, because we are near Russia, let's start with Russia and Georgia.

The administration has said we've got to maintain the territorial integrity of Georgia. Do you believe the United States should try to restore Georgian sovereignty over South Ossetia and Abkhazia?

PALIN: First off, we're going to continue good relations with Saakashvili there. I was able to speak with him the other day and giving him my commitment, as John McCain's running mate, that we will be committed to Georgia. And we've got to keep an eye on Russia. For Russia to have exerted such pressure in terms of invading a smaller democratic country, unprovoked, is unacceptable and we have to keep...

GIBSON: You believe unprovoked.

PALIN: I do believe unprovoked and we have got to keep our eyes on Russia, under the leadership there. I think it was unfortunate. That manifestation that we saw with that invasion of Georgia shows us some steps backwards that Russia has recently taken away from the race toward a more democratic nation with democratic ideals.That's why we have to keep an eye on Russia.

And, Charlie, you're in Alaska. We have that very narrow maritime border between the United States, and the 49th state, Alaska, and Russia. They are our next door neighbors.We need to have a good relationship with them. They're very, very important to us and they are our next door neighbor.

GIBSON: What insight into Russian actions, particularly in the last couple of weeks, does the proximity of the state give you?

PALIN: They're our next door neighbors and you can actually see Russia from land here in Alaska, from an island in Alaska.

GIBSON: What insight does that give you into what they're doing in Georgia?

PALIN: Well, I'm giving you that perspective of how small our world is and how important it is that we work with our allies to keep good relation with all of these countries, especially Russia. We will not repeat a Cold War. We must have good relationship with our allies, pressuring, also, helping us to remind Russia that it's in their benefit, also, a mutually beneficial relationship for us all to be getting along.

Perhaps you would be so kind as to highlight the part where she claims foreign policy expertise due her proximity to Russia, because I'm just not seeing it.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

And once again, she is clearly trying to bluff it as ssome kind of foreign policy credential.

"I can see Russia from my house" is a perfectly accurate satirization of what she said.

I'm 44, by the way.

[Robot Arm]

Originally Posted by Starving Artist

2.) She didn't try to claim the U.S. and Russia were neighbors;

She said that Alaska and Russia are neighbors. I think even Sarah Palin knows that Alaska is part of the U.S.

and 3.), She never claimed nor implied that her proximity to Russia provided her with any sort of standing on foreign policy.

She was asked a question about foreign policy with regards to Russia, and she brought up, unbidden, that it is geographically close to Alaska. That makes the connection. If it's not a reflection on her experience and qualification, why bring it up?

But suppose she really didn't mean it in that sense. She is then asked directly what insight the proximity has given her. If she felt that there was no connection, and that her remarks had been misconstrued, then this was the perfect opportunity to refudiate it. She didn't.

If we can't draw that conclusion from the interview, then what can we? What was Palin trying to say? Take away the proximity/experience connection, and there's nothing left. As much as Palin would like to get publicity without without being tied to any specific content, she doesn't get to make that call.

[Boyo Jim]

Thanks for the reminder of Palin's most permanent contribution to American social discourse -- "refudiate". It hasn't reached "cromulent" yet, but there's still time.

[Starving Artist]

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

And once again, she is clearly trying to bluff it as ssome kind of foreign policy credential.

So you can't point to any specific thing she said in an effort to claim foreign policy expertise, it's just that you've chosen to interpret it that way. Correct?

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

"I can see Russia from my house" is a perfectly accurate satirization of what she said.

a.) How can a satirization be accurate? By definition satirizations are a distortion of fact.

And in the sense you mean it, how can it be accurate if leftie hotheads present it as true and their hapless audience accepts it that way. I'd wager there are millions of people in this country who think she actually said that, and the reason is that the satire has been making the rounds as truth ever since it aired.

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

I'm 44, by the way.

Thanks. Don't know where the 35 came from. (Still, I was watching SNL before you were.... )

[Diogenes the Cynic]

Originally Posted by Starving Artist

So you can't point to any specific thing she said in an effort to claim foreign policy expertise, it's just that you've chosen to interpret it that way. Correct?

She brought it up repeatedly as a direct answer to questions about her foreign policy credentials. yes, the US and Russia are "neighbors" across the Bering Straight. So fucking what? What does that have to do with the question she was asked?

a.) How can a satirization be accurate? By definition satirizations are a distortion of fact.

Satirizations are accurate if they highlight an essential truth. They are truth by exaggeration. Tina Fey's characterization was a fair simplification of what Palin said.

And in the sense you mean it, how can it be accurate if leftie hotheads present it as true

Who presents the Tina Fey line as true?

I've watched SNL since its original cast, by the way.

[foolsguinea]

Dio, you may be trying too hard to defend Tina Fey here.

Starving Artist, you're cherry-picking Palin quotes.

"As Putin rears his head and comes into the air space of the United States of America, where– where do they go? It's Alaska. It's just right over the border." --Sarah Palin, explaining why Alaska's proximity to Russia gives her foreign policy experience, interview with CBS's Katie Couric, Sept. 24, 2008

Oh, & since I got that quote from this page, a couple more reasons I deplore her:

"We used to hustle over the border for health care we received in Canada. And I think now, isn't that ironic?" --Sarah Palin, admitting that her family used to get treatment in Canada's single-payer health care system, despite having demonized such government-run programs as socialized medicine that will lead to death-panel-like rationing, March 6, 2010

"The America I know and love is not one in which my parents or my baby with Down Syndrome will have to stand in front of Obama's 'death panel' so his bureaucrats can decide, based on a subjective judgment of their 'level of productivity in society,' whether they are worthy of health care. Such a system is downright evil." –-Sarah Palin, in a message posted on Facebook about Obama's health care plan, Aug. 7, 2009

In short, she misrepresented the nature of health care reform to deny subsidized health care to people in Middle America. How many now think that Canada has death panels? She boosted that little bandwagon enthusiastically, & she hurt Americans. As someone who does not believe in a personal afterlife, I want her to suffer in this one until she repents, loudly, publicly, & repeatedly.

[Starving Artist]

Originally Posted by Robot Arm

She said that Alaska and Russia are neighbors. I think even Sarah Palin knows that Alaska is part of the U.S.

Now you're being silly. If I'm the governor of Florida and I'm in the running for vice-president and I make a comment to the effect of Florida being neighbors with the Bahamas, would you expect people to automatically interpret that to mean I was saying the U.S. is neighbors with the Bahamas? If I were the governor of Wisconsin and I made some remark about Canada, my state's neighbor to the north, would you be thinking in terms of Texas and California and Hawaii as you were listening to what he said?

I don't think so.

Originally Posted by Robot Arm

She was asked a question about foreign policy with regards to Russia, and she brought up, unbidden, that it is geographically close to Alaska. That makes the connection. If it's not a reflection on her experience and qualification, why bring it up?

I think anyone following the interview and not vested in trying to make Palin look bad would know instantly why she brought it up. Gibson was angling to try to box her into an awkward situation by pitting her support of Georgia against the desires of Russia. She brought up Russia's proximity and her view of them as neighbors in order to show that she was not antagonistic toward Russia and felt that Russia and the Western powers would benefit mutually by getting along well with each other. This isn't rocket science.

Originally Posted by Robot Arm

But suppose she really didn't mean it in that sense. She is then asked directly what insight the proximity has given her. If she felt that there was no connection, and that her remarks had been misconstrued, then this was the perfect opportunity to refudiate it. She didn't.

When could she have 'refudiated' it? Are you saying that the very occasion that gave rise to her comments being miscontrued was the same occasion that gave her the opportunity to correct it? She couldn't have known there was anything to refudiate until after the interview aired, could she?

Originally Posted by Robot Arm

If we can't draw that conclusion from the interview, then what can we? What was Palin trying to say?

She was trying to do several things: avoid being hemmed in by Gibson vis-a-vis Georgia and Russia; state publically that she favored good relationships between the West and Russia; and deflect Gibson's question about her foreign policy expertise. Those are reality of what she was trying to do. In my opinion a person could legitimately make the observation that she was trying to avoid answering Gibson's question because she had next to no foreign policy experience or knowledge, and they would be correct. I have no problem however with her giving Gibson a non-answer because non-answers to difficult questions have become de riguer for all politicians lately, most notably Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama.

Originally Posted by Robot Arm

Take away the proximity/experience connection, and there's nothing left.

On this statement you won't get much objection from me. [/quote]As much as Palin would like to get publicity without without being tied to any specific content, she doesn't get to make that call.[/quote]Whether she does or doesn't is completely beside the point. She was asked what she was asked and she said what she said. Her comments should stand or fall based upon what she actually said and meant and not the distortions and lies that her opponents turn them into. I have no objection to people who want to criticize her for her lack of experience or her failure to give substantial answers to reporters' questions. What I object to are her words being distorted or lied about by her opponents in a deliberate attempt to make her and her supporters look stupid.

Now having said all this, I gotta go. I'll have to catch you later, foolsguinea, but having given your post just a quick glance and not clicked the link, I have to say that the Putin quote as posted does not support your interpretation of it.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

Originally Posted by Starving Artist

Now you're being silly. If I'm the governor of Florida and I'm in the running for vice-president and I make a comment to the effect of Florida being neighbors with the Bahamas, would you expect people to automatically interpret that to mean I was saying the U.S. is neighbors with the Bahamas?

Of course. I'm not sure why you think there's any kind of distinction there, or why anyone should think there's embarrassing about subbing in "the US" for the name of the closest state. As a matter of geographical fact, the US and Russia are "neighbors" across the the Bering Strait. Why do you think that's a ridicuolus thing to say?

If I were the governor of Wisconsin and I made some remark about Canada, my state's neighbor to the north, would you be thinking in terms of Texas and California and Hawaii as you were listening to what he said?

That's not the same thing, but if he said the US and Canada were neighbors, he would be correct.

I think anyone following the interview and not vested in trying to make Palin look bad would know instantly why she brought it up. Gibson was angling to try to box her into an awkward situation by pitting her support of Georgia against the desires of Russia.

Oh noes, he asked a Vice Presidential candidate a question about how to deal with a difficult foreign policy issue. Poor, poor Sarah. They would never ask HUSSEIN Obama any hard foreign policy questions...oh, wait, they DID repeatedly, throught the campaign, and he answered them coherently. Where do you righties get the idea that it's somehow unfair to ask a political candidate substantive questions?

[Robot Arm]

Originally Posted by Starving Artist

Now you're being silly. If I'm the governor of Florida and I'm in the running for vice-president and I make a comment to the effect of Florida being neighbors with the Bahamas, would you expect people to automatically interpret that to mean I was saying the U.S. is neighbors with the Bahamas?

No, but I would think that you brought it up because it had some relevance to what we were talking about. If you state specifically that you're closer to the Bahamas than the rest of the U.S., then that proximity must mean something to you. Have you met Bahamians, is your state a gateway to people travelling there, does that impact your economy, do you follow the same hurricane forecasts, grow the same crops and compete in the same markets? There must be some reason you'd bring it up. In a political interview with a Vice Presidential candidate, on the topic of foreign policy, the clear inference is that proximity leads to experience and judgment that will be useful when it comes to setting foreign policy.

I think anyone following the interview and not vested in trying to make Palin look bad would know instantly why she brought it up. Gibson was angling to try to box her into an awkward situation by pitting her support of Georgia against the desires of Russia.

She was running for the vice presidency. It's entirely possible that she would be in a position to make choices that balanced the interests of Georgia against Russia, and those choices would have to be backed up by the full force of the U.S. government and military. Under the circumstances, it is precisely Gibson's job to ask her those sorts of questions.

I've heard many people defend Palin's performance in interviews as being the result of "gotcha journalism". Please give me an example of a question that Charlie Gibson or Katie Couric could ask that would NOT be gotcha journalism.

When could she have 'refudiated' it? Are you saying that the very occasion that gave rise to her comments being miscontrued was the same occasion that gave her the opportunity to correct it?

Yes, that is exactly what I'm saying. Palin made (for whatever reason) a statement about Alaska's proximity to Russia. Gibson followed that up with a question asking her to clarify and expand upon the statement. It was quite clear from the question what his inference was. If that was not the meaning that she intended, she had ample opportunity to explain herself further right then and there.

[Little Nemo]

GIBSON: Let's start, because we are near Russia, let's start with Russia and Georgia.

The administration has said we've got to maintain the territorial integrity of Georgia. Do you believe the United States should try to restore Georgian sovereignty over South Ossetia and Abkhazia?

PALIN: First off, we're going to continue good relations with Saakashvili there. I was able to speak with him the other day and giving him my commitment, as John McCain's running mate, that we will be committed to Georgia. And we've got to keep an eye on Russia. For Russia to have exerted such pressure in terms of invading a smaller democratic country, unprovoked, is unacceptable and we have to keep...

GIBSON: You believe unprovoked.

PALIN: I do believe unprovoked and we have got to keep our eyes on Russia, under the leadership there. I think it was unfortunate. That manifestation that we saw with that invasion of Georgia shows us some steps backwards that Russia has recently taken away from the race toward a more democratic nation with democratic ideals.That's why we have to keep an eye on Russia.

And, Charlie, you're in Alaska. We have that very narrow maritime border between the United States, and the 49th state, Alaska, and Russia. They are our next door neighbors.We need to have a good relationship with them. They're very, very important to us and they are our next door neighbor.

GIBSON: What insight into Russian actions, particularly in the last couple of weeks, does the proximity of the state give you?

PALIN: They're our next door neighbors and you can actually see Russia from land here in Alaska, from an island in Alaska.

GIBSON: What insight does that give you into what they're doing in Georgia?

PALIN: Well, I'm giving you that perspective of how small our world is and how important it is that we work with our allies to keep good relation with all of these countries, especially Russia. We will not repeat a Cold War. We must have good relationship with our allies, pressuring, also, helping us to remind Russia that it's in their benefit, also, a mutually beneficial relationship for us all to be getting along.

I can't believe anyone would post this as a defense of Palin. I think it's an illustration of how incredibly unqualified she is.

She was asked an easy question about a major foreign policy issue of the day - and she couldn't answer it. Apparently all that her handlers were able to get into her brain was "keep an eye on Russia".

Here's a transcript from her interview with Katie Couric:

Couric: You've said, quote, "John McCain will reform the way Wall Street does business." Other than supporting stricter regulations of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac two years ago, can you give us any more example of his leading the charge for more oversight?

Palin: I think that the example that you just cited, with his warnings two years ago about Fannie and Freddie - that, that's paramount. That's more than a heck of a lot of other senators and representatives did for us.

Couric: But he's been in Congress for 26 years. He's been chairman of the powerful Commerce Committee. And he has almost always sided with less regulation, not more.

Palin: He's also known as the maverick though, taking shots from his own party, and certainly taking shots from the other party. Trying to get people to understand what he's been talking about - the need to reform government.

Couric: But can you give me any other concrete examples? Because I know you've said Barack Obama is a lot of talk and no action. Can you give me any other examples in his 26 years of John McCain truly taking a stand on this?

Palin: I can give you examples of things that John McCain has done, that has shown his foresight, his pragmatism, and his leadership abilities. And that is what America needs today.

Couric: I'm just going to ask you one more time - not to belabor the point. Specific examples in his 26 years of pushing for more regulation.

Palin: I'll try to find you some and I'll bring them to you.

Couric: What's your position on global warming? Do you believe it's man-made or not?

Palin: Well, we're the only Arctic state, of course, Alaska. So we feel the impacts more than any other state, up there with the changes in climates. And certainly, it is apparent. We have erosion issues. And we have melting sea ice, of course. So, what I've done up there is form a sub-cabinet to focus solely on climate change. Understanding that it is real. And …

Couric: Is it man-made, though in your view?

Palin: You know there are - there are man's activities that can be contributed to the issues that we're dealing with now, these impacts. I'm not going to solely blame all of man's activities on changes in climate. Because the world's weather patterns are cyclical. And over history we have seen change there. But kind of doesn't matter at this point, as we debate what caused it. The point is: it's real; we need to do something about it.

Couric: If a 15-year-old is raped by her father, do you believe it should be illegal for her to get an abortion, and why?

Palin: I am pro-life. And I'm unapologetic in my position that I am pro-life. And I understand there are good people on both sides of the abortion debate. In fact, good people in my own family have differing views on abortion, and when it should be allowed. Do I respect people's opinions on this. Now, I would counsel to choose life. I would also like to see a culture of life in this country. But I would also like to take it one step further. Not just saying I am pro-life and I want fewer and fewer abortions in this country, but I want them, those women who find themselves in circumstances that are absolutely less than ideal, for them to be supported, and adoptions made easier.

Couric: But ideally, you think it should be illegal for a girl who was raped or the victim of incest to get an abortion?

Palin: I'm saying that, personally, I would counsel the person to choose life, despite horrific, horrific circumstances that this person would find themselves in. And, um, if you're asking, though, kind of foundationally here, should anyone end up in jail for having an … abortion, absolutely not. That's nothing I would ever support.

Couric: Some people have credited the morning-after pill for decreasing the number of abortions. How do you feel about the morning-after pill?

Palin: Well, I am all for contraception. And I am all for preventative measures that are legal and save, and should be taken, but Katie, again, I am one to believe that life starts at the moment of conception. And I would like to see …

Couric: And so you don't believe in the morning-after pill?

Palin: ... I would like to see fewer and fewer abortions in this world. And again, I haven't spoken with anyone who disagrees with my position on that.

Couric: I'm sorry, I just want to ask you again. Do you not support or do you condone or condemn the morning-after pill.

Palin: Personally, and this isn't McCain-Palin policy …

Couric: No, that's OK, I'm just asking you.

Palin: But personally, I would not choose to participate in that kind of contraception.

These were not "gotcha" questions. These were easy questions about legitimate political issue to a person who was running for Vice President. And she was unable to answer them.

[kfraser34]

lol at this exchange from the thread BrainGlutton linked in the second post...

Originally Posted by Malleus, Incus, Stapes!

She's embarrassing all us sane conservatives.

Originally Posted by mswas

Yeah, but there are so few of you.

doctored a bit for effect

[Unintentionally Blank]

Any truth to the theory that the conservative Democrats of today were the Conservative Republicans of 50 years ago?

[BrainGlutton]

Originally Posted by Unintentionally Blank

Any truth to the theory that the conservative Democrats of today were the Conservative Republicans of 50 years ago?

No, the conservative Democrats of 50 years ago are the conservative Republicans of today. They changed parties in the '70s and '80s in the wake of Nixon's "Southern Strategy."