Berniero vs Snyder for Michigan Governor.

[crazyjoe]

So last night was a televised interview with both candidates on WDIV's "Flashpoint." Saw some interesting dialogue.

All said, I think Rick Snyder definitely came out ahead in doing what people wanted, which was talking a bit about specifics. He outlined (once again) the "Value for money" bodgeting system a bit, mentioned wanting to create a long-term plan for public employee compensation, clarified the whole "Exported jobs to China" thing (which the Truth Squad has also classified as a foul) and generally stayed upbeat and on-message about how he planned to help Michigan. I'm not happy that he wants the HRA lawsuits to continue as well as do some nebulous deregulation, but....

Virgil Berniero took several opportunities to take cheap shots at Snyder. He generally veered away from any sort of specifics, deferring to "Well I will just do what I did in Lansing..." and his record there. I have no doubt he accomplished some things, but people wanted to hear specifics and he deliberately avoided them, and rather ungracefully. There were several uncomfortable moments where Scillian just had to move on to avoid turing it from an interview to an argument. Not very politically adept.

Right now, this moderate is leaning toward Snyder. I simply feel he has the better tools to get the job done, and I feel like Berniero is willing to put all of our eggs back in one basket as he courts manufacturing jobs to try to bring the state back.

[gonzomax]

Snyder moved jobs to China when he was in business. there is a segment of the population that still believes businessmen are on the side of the people. The businessmen have done a lot of harm.
When someone points out the loss of jobs the last decade and blames a mayor, he is lying. The jobs mess is a national phenomenon caused by large corporations and wealthy bought off politicians looking to escape reasonable wages and environmental regulation. Michigan's economy was spearheaded by auto and big manufacturing. Those days are gone. Nobody can fix the jobs problem in a state even less so in Mich.

[BobLibDem]

Snyder is already dancing in the end zone even though he's only at the 10 yard line. His only qualifications seem to be the (R) next to his name, the fact that he isn't Jennifer Granholm, and his "One Tough Nerd" commercial that propelled him to the nomination. Don't count Bernero out yet.

[crazyjoe]

Originally Posted by gonzomax

Snyder moved jobs to China when he was in business.

Not according to him. He was on the board, and not in a decision-making role when Gateway, which was in pretty bad shape and contracting overall, outsourced somem functions to China. When he was made interim CEO later, he brought back a chunk of those manufacturing jobs and call center jobs because the quality he got here surpassed that of what he got in China, and made up the difference in cost.

But hey, nice job parroting Berniero's talking points.

I have heard the ads attacking Berniero, but I do not beleive those have been made by Snyder himself. He hasn't denounced them, necessarily, but I don't see Rick Snyder doing the attack ads. Maybe he's far enough ahead that he doesn't have to.

[gonzomax]

http://www.discera.com/AnnouncementR....aspx?ID=52272 This is one of his companies announcing its opening in China. So, not only is he moving jobs but he is sharing forward technology with them. That will allow them to use the technology developed in Ann Arbor for their own use. That is just plain wrong. all our R&D given away for short term profits again.

[crazyjoe]

Originally Posted by BobLibDem

Snyder is already dancing in the end zone even though he's only at the 10 yard line. His only qualifications seem to be the (R) next to his name, the fact that he isn't Jennifer Granholm, and his "One Tough Nerd" commercial that propelled him to the nomination. Don't count Bernero out yet.

I've by no means counted him out, but he has to come out and say something compelling, instead of just basically comlpaining about "Wall Street fat cats" et al. He needs either some charisma, which he seems to be lacking in what I have heard of him so far, or some serious DETAILS on what his policy is going to be that show he's got a better plan than Snyder.

Remember John McCain? "I know how to win wars, but I'm not enough of a patriot to tell you before I get elected." That's not going to fly with Michigan voters. Neither is pussyfooting around the issue that the Detroit schools suck and need serious out-of-area supervision and revamping. (which he did last night)

DETAILS, Virg, we want DETAILS. Can you hear me now? Show some political courage, and you might not lose the election.

[crazyjoe]

Originally Posted by gonzomax

http://www.discera.com/AnnouncementR....aspx?ID=52272 This is one of his companies announcing its opening in China. So, not only is he moving jobs but he is sharing forward technology with them. That will allow them to use the technology developed in Ann Arbor for their own use. That is just plain wrong. all our R&D given away for short term profits again.

Please show me, again, where Rick Snyder has managerial authority over this decision, or spoke in support of it during a board meeting. Until you can prove that, all you know is that he's on the board of a semiconductor company that, SURPRISE, has opened some facilities in China. Find me one that hasn't.

But hey, we all know which box you're going to check on Nov 2nd, even if Bernero was the former Fire Chief in South Fulton. It's not like informed decision making is your strong suit.

[BrainGlutton]

Nitpick: It's Bernero, not Berniero.

[gonzomax]

Originally Posted by crazyjoe

Please show me, again, where Rick Snyder has managerial authority over this decision, or spoke in support of it during a board meeting. Until you can prove that, all you know is that he's on the board of a semiconductor company that, SURPRISE, has opened some facilities in China. Find me one that hasn't.

But hey, we all know which box you're going to check on Nov 2nd, even if Bernero was the former Fire Chief in South Fulton. It's not like informed decision making is your strong suit.

You are pretending your mind is open. it is welded shut. A powerful board member has no responsibility for sending jobs and cutting edge technology to China? If not him ,who? Some guy working in the shop? This is the future tech. That is the power of America that you are justifying turning over for short term profits. Well they all do it.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/22/sc...nder.html?_r=1 Yep, here is one. A guy who is a thinking caring exec. You can care about the country over short term profits.

[crazyjoe]

You're a funny dude. I vote Democrat about as much as I vote Republican, and sometimes I vote independent. If there's someone with his brain welded shut here, it's you.

Are you aware that board decisions are not required to be unanimous? That a majority vote is all that is needed to approve company strategies? How do you have any idea whether Snyder voted to outsource the jobs or not?

Beyond all this, you seem only able to attack Snyder, but have nothing of substance to say about good old Virg. He doesn't have a plan, so far as I can see. He epitomizes the liberal elite douchbag who says he knows more than you and you should just let him run things, they will be fine. He won't even attempt to explain what it is he wants to do, besides some touchy-feely "I'll work with people."

[Omar Little]

This race isn't even close. Snyder is ahead by 20%.

[gonzomax]

Snyder wants to roll back the Healtcare Bill.
He wants to retain the tax break for corporations that outsource.
He wants to privatize Social Security.
He was on the Gateway board when they outsourced 19,000 jobs.
He is an unabashed corporate stooge who will push to get even more power in the hands of tha already too damn powerful.
He is a Venture Capitalist and theWall Street Journal, says his investments in that field have not created any jobs in America. But he made millions.
He is another rich guy who thinks the governorship is his right ,if he wants it.

[Omar Little]

Originally Posted by gonzomax

Snyder wants to roll back the Healtcare Bill.
He wants to retain the tax break for corporations that outsource.
He wants to privatize Social Security.
He was on the Gateway board when they outsourced 19,000 jobs.
He is an unabashed corporate stooge who will push to get even more power in the hands of tha already too damn powerful.
He is a Venture Capitalist and theWall Street Journal, says his investments in that field have not created any jobs in America. But he made millions.
He is another rich guy who thinks the governorship is his right ,if he wants it.

And 20% more of the people in Michigan want him as Governor over Berniero in light of all of the assertions.

[gonzomax]

Well if the people vote him in, he must be the very best. The voters apparently are never wrong in your part of the universe.
Lets skip the election completely and install the guy who is leading in the polls.

[Omar Little]

No, but the things you are pointing out are not new revelations to this race.

The election should still go on, and yes occasionally unranked South Carolina will beat #1 Alabama, but not often, yet you still play the game.

[gonzomax]

The Freep ran a list of his businesses. He has has some successes and some failures. Some failures have been pretty spectacular. But he has not demonstrated any real interest at keeping work in the US. He is now a venture capitalist. How much seedier does he have to be?
I have no idea why people still believe a business background translates to a good government official. how many times does that have to blow up before it gets soundly rejected.

[Omar Little]

The majority of voters in Michigan apparently see it differently than you. They likely believe that the role of government is not to force businesses to keep jobs in the US through tarrifs and barriers, but to create an environment where businesses will choose to make investments in the US without uncertainty around compliance and unknown future regulations. The role of business is not to employ people, it's role is to generate a profit for it's shareholders. It is the role of government to foster an environment where business can profitably invest capital in their jurisdiction. That's the only way jobs are going to grow in this country.

[gonzomax]

Jobs will grow in America when we develop the green technology of the future ,if we have strong enough regulation to prevent corporations from taking it over and outsourcing it, because that is what they will do.
The job of corporations is to keep the bosses fat and happy. They have to kick enough money to stock holders to allow them to keep getting huge salaries and bonuses. They are unable to plan long ahead. The CFOs of most financial institutions have a tenure of 2 years.Why do they care about long term corporate planning? Corporate bosses come and go and want to make it quick. They are not invested in making sure the corporation is thinking into the future.
Your plan is simple. we cut our wages to 3rd world levels. Eliminate all regulation and environmental concerns and of course bring back child labor. We give then huge tax breaks and they will still pretend they are based in the Caimans. Nothing less will keep them from outsourcing, because that is what they get in the 3ed world.

[Omar Little]

Your misunderstanding of Corporate behavior is laughable.

[zweisamkeit]

Hey, gonzo, I gotta say that I literally laughed out loud when I saw that this:

Originally Posted by gonzomax

Snyder wants to roll back the Healtcare Bill.
He wants to retain the tax break for corporations that outsource.
He wants to privatize Social Security.
He was on the Gateway board when they outsourced 19,000 jobs.
He is an unabashed corporate stooge who will push to get even more power in the hands of tha already too damn powerful.
He is a Venture Capitalist and theWall Street Journal, says his investments in that field have not created any jobs in America. But he made millions.
He is another rich guy who thinks the governorship is his right ,if he wants it.

was your reply to this:

Originally Posted by crazyjoe

Beyond all this, you seem only able to attack Snyder, but have nothing of substance to say about good old Virg.

That was a great and informative reply, truly showing you know the stances and positions your favored candidate has! How about actually posting a reply that says what BERNERO thinks, is claiming he'll do, and what stances he holds?

[Omar Little]

I have a feeling it wouldn't matter if Bernero were a yellow dog.

[gonzomax]

http://www.freep.com/article/2010101...te-s-movie-biz Here is a Mitch Albom article on Snyder's objection to tax breaks for the fledgling Michigan movie industry. There has been plenty of job creation in Michigan due to it and it is putting us on the map for movie producers. The jobs created have also resulted in increased business for restaurants and other periphery business.
Of course Snyder is against it.

[crazyjoe]

Originally Posted by gonzomax

http://www.freep.com/article/2010101...te-s-movie-biz Here is a Mitch Albom article on Snyder's objection to tax breaks for the fledgling Michigan movie industry. There has been plenty of job creation in Michigan due to it and it is putting us on the map for movie producers. The jobs created have also resulted in increased business for restaurants and other periphery business.
Of course Snyder is against it.

<yawn>

The tax credit hasn't come close to paying for itself. In essence, it rewards big movie studios with tax breaks at the expense of the Michigan taxpayer. Sounds like the perfect target for Democrats to march to war over, except it's a tax break that is essentially funding the "arts" so it gets a pass.

And Mitch Albom is a piece of shit who was instrumental in the failure of the detroit newspaper union strike. I wouldn't trust anything he says.

[zut]

Originally Posted by crazyjoe

<yawn>

The tax credit hasn't come close to paying for itself. In essence, it rewards big movie studios with tax breaks at the expense of the Michigan taxpayer. Sounds like the perfect target for Democrats to march to war over, except it's a tax break that is essentially funding the "arts" so it gets a pass.

And Mitch Albom is a piece of shit who was instrumental in the failure of the detroit newspaper union strike. I wouldn't trust anything he says.

My personal opinion is that the movie tax credit brings some intangible and semi-tangible benefits, such as civic pride and good publicity, that are over and above the direct tax benefits to the state. Whether or not those intangibles are worth the dollars is debatable, of course.

And Mitch Albom may or may not be a piece of shit because of his actions during the strike, but that's no reason to mistrust him. You should mistrust him because he has a record of fabricating information in supposedly factual columns.

[gonzomax]

There have been more than 20 movies in the Detroit area the last couple years. There is a series 187 that is based and filmed in Detroit. They built a 25 million dollar sound studio in Highland Park. There were several restaurant owners on TV saying they have had greatly increased business since they started filming. They said, if we drove them away, their business would be in jeopardy.

[crazyjoe]

Originally Posted by zut

My personal opinion is that the movie tax credit brings some intangible and semi-tangible benefits, such as civic pride and good publicity, that are over and above the direct tax benefits to the state. Whether or not those intangibles are worth the dollars is debatable, of course.

And Mitch Albom may or may not be a piece of shit because of his actions during the strike, but that's no reason to mistrust him. You should mistrust him because he has a record of fabricating information in supposedly factual columns.

I don't trust him because of the part he had in the strike. Essentially, he crossed the picket line (electronically, like a coward, working from his home office instead of coming downtown), and proclaimed publically that he was goign to try to act as an arbitrator/mediator between the union and the paper. The paper, of course, acted despicably toward the union, but they still paid Mitch Albom, so he kept working there. He didn't mediate squat. It doesn't surprise me that he woudl fabircate stuff (but I'd love some cites on that, just to toss them out when I can).

[crazyjoe]

Originally Posted by gonzomax

There have been more than 20 movies in the Detroit area the last couple years. There is a series 187 that is based and filmed in Detroit. They built a 25 million dollar sound studio in Highland Park. There were several restaurant owners on TV saying they have had greatly increased business since they started filming. They said, if we drove them away, their business would be in jeopardy.

And your point is? If it costs the state more in tax credits then it generates back in tax revenue, it is unsustainable right now, when we're over 1.6 billion in budget deficit.

[gonzomax]

Originally Posted by crazyjoe

And your point is? If it costs the state more in tax credits then it generates back in tax revenue, it is unsustainable right now, when we're over 1.6 billion in budget deficit.

I't doesn't that is why. How big a tax break would have to counterbalance a 25 million dollar studio? How many workers constructed the studio and work there?
Now there is a new studio being build downtown for 20 million. It is a fledgling industry making inroads into a community that desperately need jobs and industries. Checking your wealth is not just counting your change. You have to look at business you are creating that will help in the future. There are hundreds of jobs being created already. There will be more. We need them to break lose of todays problems and build a future.
It also is a good statement for the city.

[crazyjoe]

Originally Posted by gonzomax

I't doesn't that is why. How big a tax break would have to counterbalance a 25 million dollar studio? How many workers constructed the studio and work there?
Now there is a new studio being build downtown for 20 million. It is a fledgling industry making inroads into a community that desperately need jobs and industries. Checking your wealth is not just counting your change. You have to look at business you are creating that will help in the future. There are hundreds of jobs being created already. There will be more. We need them to break lose of todays problems and build a future.
It also is a good statement for the city.

And of course you have cites for all this, right?

I'll tell you how you pay for a 20 million dollar studio....with NINETY MILLION DOLLARS in credits.

http://www.lansingstatejournal.com/a...bs-not-revenue

And they expect to spend $111 MORE million in the next year. Easy to pay for a $25 million dollar studio if you spend 5 times that much.

That aticle quotes Granholm saying the goal is to create jobs, not increase tax revenue. But the whole reason for creating jobs is to increase tax revenue, either by removing people from welfare rolls or collecting income tax on their wages.

Now, to some extent, I agree that certain investments have to be made. But I'd like to see some studies showing how long the payback will be before this kicks back into the red....the state can't afford to give away money right now.

[zut]

Originally Posted by crazyjoe

It doesn't surprise me that he woudl fabircate stuff (but I'd love some cites on that, just to toss them out when I can).

Here's a story at USAToday on Mitch's "faux pas." Of course, the Free Press did little more than slap him on the wrist, and quickly swept the whole incident under the rug.

[gonzomax]

That article must prove something. What? And what does it have to do with Berniero? Do you find that to be some horrible transgression?
Michigan can not afford to pass up building an industry of the future. They can not pass up a business opportunity. The whole bullshit Republican mantra is trickle down. If you are a Repub, you must think bringing in the industry by offering tax breaks will result in jobs, property taxes , and make money for the state.
If you are a Dem, you want more jobs. You know people will spend if they get salaries ,helping the economy.
But it is not giving away money. It has resulted in spending in Detroit and more jobs. If you just cut them off, they will go elsewhere. Then what does the future of Detroit look like. We have given tax breaks to corporations forever. Often they did not hire like they said they would. But we kept doing it, because jobs were created. The movie industry has already hired lots of people and invested in the community.
You are guilty of short term thinking.

[crazyjoe]

Originally Posted by gonzomax

That article must prove something. What? And what does it have to do with Berniero? Do you find that to be some horrible transgression?
Michigan can not afford to pass up building an industry of the future. They can not pass up a business opportunity. The whole bullshit Republican mantra is trickle down. If you are a Repub, you must think bringing in the industry by offering tax breaks will result in jobs, property taxes , and make money for the state.
If you are a Dem, you want more jobs. You know people will spend if they get salaries ,helping the economy.
But it is not giving away money. It has resulted in spending in Detroit and more jobs. If you just cut them off, they will go elsewhere. Then what does the future of Detroit look like. We have given tax breaks to corporations forever. Often they did not hire like they said they would. But we kept doing it, because jobs were created. The movie industry has already hired lots of people and invested in the community.
You are guilty of short term thinking.

You're guilty of being a moron.

[gonzomax]

Originally Posted by crazyjoe

You're guilty of being a moron.

Look dumbo it is not about Albom. He actually was involved in making a couple movies. He helped bring the movie industry here. And you claim some sports story error in 2005 is relevant? How damn stupid is that?
It is 2010 and we are discussing an election. You are stuck in a 6 year old sports story. Get with it .

[crazyjoe]

Originally Posted by gonzomax

Look dumbo it is not about Albom. He actually was involved in making a couple movies. He helped bring the movie industry here. And you claim some sports story error in 2005 is relevant? How damn stupid is that?
It is 2010 and we are discussing an election. You are stuck in a 6 year old sports story. Get with it .

I asked for the cite as part of support for my dislike of the guy for doing something you should be apalled at as well....help in breaking the Detroit Newspaper union.

I didn't know it was going to be a sports story, it doesn't really help my cause any that it wasn't some more substantial fabrication. But that's not the point.

The point is that I opened this thread looking for an intelligent debate and instead got your partisan dumbassery. All Democrats are good. All Republicans are evil. And all gonzomaxes are surely just not worth the time to argue with.

[twickster]

Originally Posted by crazyjoe

You're guilty of being a moron.

Originally Posted by gonzomax

Look dumbo ....

Both of you, dial it way back. Direct insults are not allowed in this forum.

twickster, 2010 US Election moderator

[gonzomax]

Originally Posted by crazyjoe

I asked for the cite as part of support for my dislike of the guy for doing something you should be apalled at as well....help in breaking the Detroit Newspaper union.

I didn't know it was going to be a sports story, it doesn't really help my cause any that it wasn't some more substantial fabrication. But that's not the point.

The point is that I opened this thread looking for an intelligent debate and instead got your partisan dumbassery. All Democrats are good. All Republicans are evil. And all gonzomaxes are surely just not worth the time to argue with.

As opposed to your partisanship coupled with a hard on over a 5 year old sports story that is not germane.
You apparently believe we don't need the movie industry. we have been giving tax abatements forever. Now it is evil.
I think we need the jobs. i think we need the studios and spending in the Detroit area.
You think Albom gave a bad story out 5 years ago.
I am a union backer. But I do not know Alboms union stance of is and I don't know why it would be relevant to getting the movie industry jobs here.

[gonzomax]

We are being bombarded by some of the nastiest political ads I have ever seen. i don't know how much worse they can get. They are being run one after another during every break. It is for all positions from governor to local judges. I have never seen this many ads . I have never seen them this nasty.

[crazyjoe]

Originally Posted by gonzomax

As opposed to your partisanship coupled with a hard on over a 5 year old sports story that is not germane.

MY partisanship? I don't identify with either party. How many pro-union republicans do you see out there? I am the antithesis of partisan politics, my friend. I am hated by both sides.

And you evidence your typical reading comprehension by harping on the "5 year old story" thing, when it is not something I brought up. The money spent bringing the movie industry here could have just as easily been spent helping out other people directly. 100 million bucks is a lot of cops, firefighters, teachers...

[Least Original User Name Ever]

We could do a lot worse than Snyder, assuming he doesn't become radicalized. I think he could end up being a Governor Schwartzenegger-type.

[gonzomax]

The Terminator allowed the energy corporations to fleece the California people out of billions of dollars. Repubs are not on the side of the people. They work for corporations .
Privatizing Social Security is a terrible idea. bankers see a huge pot they can filter through their fingers and obtain huge administration costs for running. S.S. is run on 1.5 % of its intake. That is extremely efficient. Healthcare companies filter 30 percent out of that boondoggle. They are pissed because the Obamacare holds them to 15 %. That is a lot of bonuses and multi-million dollar salaries they would miss. That is also why they are cranking up health care rates everywhere.
I see bad times ahead. The concentration of wealth is unprecedented. The whole country is changing to a plutocracy.

[John D'Adamo]

I will be voting for Virg. His record as mayor of Lansing, creating thousands of jobs, cannot be ignored, as well as the fact that every Lansing budget was not only balanced but without creating any new taxes (appeasing the raising taxes = death crowd). He is going to be creating incentives for the creation/enlargment of small businesses. (All info taken from Lansing Economic Development Corporation, if anyone is wondering.) Rick Snyder would still be more moderate than many Republican choices, but I'm definitely going with proven experience on this one.

[What the .... ?!?!]

Snyder wins.

Improving on Granholm won't be too difficult.

Step one....get rid of the assanine MBT

[wolfman]

I think actually wanting to be Governor of this burning ship is conclusive proof of lack of sufficient mental faculties to be qualified to govern.

[BobLibDem]

Originally Posted by What the .... ?!?!

Snyder wins.

Improving on Granholm won't be too difficult.

Step one....get rid of the assanine MBT

And replace it with what? Republicans whined incessantly about the SBT, though they conveniently neglected to address it during the Engler years. SBT goes out, MBT goes in, and what changed? Now the MBT is the Mother of All Evil and MUST be replaced. Same pig, different earrings.

[What the .... ?!?!]

Originally Posted by BobLibDem

And replace it with what? Republicans whined incessantly about the SBT, though they conveniently neglected to address it during the Engler years. SBT goes out, MBT goes in, and what changed? Now the MBT is the Mother of All Evil and MUST be replaced. Same pig, different earrings.

How about an income tax?

[BobLibDem]

Originally Posted by What the .... ?!?!

How about an income tax?

Would work for me but you know that would be a tax increase on someone so the Pubs wouldn't go for it.