Al Masjid Al Aqsa

[Abisafyan]

Al Masjid Al Aqsa

Part I
Islam being the Divine Religion it is Divine Oriented. So its name, its origin, its averments, its nitty gritty and all of its injunctions, mandatory or prohibitory and including the world three ‘Islamic Holiest Shrines’ are also Divine. Conversely all other creeds are man oriented and so their manes, origin, averments and fundamentals are also synthetic and all its extract including their shrines are also man-oriented. All the three Islamic Holiest Shrines; (i) ‘Al-Masjid-Al-Haram’ (viz Mosque of Inviolable) or Beth-Allah Sharif at ‘Mecca the Blessed’ - (ii) ‘Al Masjid Al Nabawi’ (viz The Messenger Mosque) at ‘Medina the Radiant - (iii) and ‘Al Masjid Al Aqsa’ or Al-Beth-al-Maqdis or Al-Haram al-Sharif in ‘Al Qods al Sharif’ have been Holiest because Allah Almighty has affirmed them as such and therefore they were built under Allah Almighty Command, primarily by Prophets (PBUT) in accordance therewith.
What I want to bring forth is to find out the answer of a very vital question; whether ‘Al Masjid Al Aqsa’ (the Farthest Mosque viz Al Beth-al-Maqdis) was built as Masjid (Mosque), synagogue or temple right from the inception? This is something of paramount importance to calm-down the conflict between the contender claimants; Muslims, Jews & Christians.
Jews claiming the site of the ‘Al Masjid al Aqsa’ (the whole of Al Haram al Sharif) as site of ‘Temple Mount’ the site which according to them was purchased by the then King of Bani Israel, King David (viz Prophet Daud) PBUH and the first temple was built over there by King Suleiman (viz Prophet King Suleiman) PBUH and which replaced the Tabernacle. Tabernacle according to the Jewish biblical account was a tent also known as ‘portable sanctuary’ established by Prophet Moses PBUH in which the ‘Ark of the Covenant’ (viz Ark Shekinah) was conveyed. (Exodus 26.31-36, 36.8-38, 37.1-9).
Whereas Christians claims the same site as the proximity of ‘Church of the Holy Sepulture’ which according to them was built over the site in the garden of Joseph of Arimathea where the Jesus (viz Prophet Isa Ibn Maryam viz Jesus son of Mary) PBUH is believed to have been buried in his tomb after the so called crucifixion. And the Roman King, ‘Constantine the great’ built a basilica on the site, which formed an add-on to the circular church of the holy Sepulcher that according to them had been enclosed under Hadrian’s temple.
Muslims account however about the Al Masjid al Aqsa (Al Haram Al Sharif) is highly original, legitimate, exceptional and irrefutable and can be proved even from their holy books; Old Testament and New Testament inspite of distortions.
First, what is meant by Al Masjid Al Aqsa (Al Haram Al Sharif and its Surroundings? Three names are important to be understood. They are ‘Al Qods Al Sharif’ (in Arabic) also known as Yerusalem (in Hebrew) and Jerusalem (in English). At the heart of them lies ‘The Noble Sanctuary’ in English, and which is also mentioned as ‘Al-Haram Al-Sharif’ or ‘Al Beth-al-Maqdis’ in Arabic. ‘Al Qods Al Sharif’ is also referred to in history as ‘Old City’ or ‘Walled City’ or ‘Land of Canaan’. And wherein lies a Masjid (Mosque), known as ‘Al Masjid Al Aqsa’ in the Holy Qur’an and which has been surrounded by other Muslims Holy Entities, will be elaborated afterwards. And therefore Allah Almighty says:
“Glory be to Him Who had His servant (Prophet Mohammad) travel by night from ‘al Masjid al Haram’ (in Mecca) to ‘al Masjid-al-Aqsa’ (in Al Qods Al Sharif) whose surroundings We have blessed, so We might show him some of Our signs! He is the Alert, the Observant!” (Surah Bani Israel - 17.1)
According to some more famous sources this Holy and Sacred ‘Al Haram Al Sharif’ was originated by Prophet King, Daud (viz Prophet Kind David) PBUH and completed by his son, the Prophet King, Suleiman (viz Prophet King Solomon) PBUH round about 3000 year ago. Jews do believe Daud (David) and Suleiman (Solomon) but merely as kings and not as Prophets. While Muslims believe firmly that both Daud and Suleiman were Prophets & Kings, assigned by Allah Almighty. These two magnificent Prophet Kings PBUT were mentioned no fewer than 33 times in the Holy Qur’an.
Whereas according to some renowned Muslim Historians, the third Holiest Muslim Shrine; ‘Al Masjid Al Aqsa’ was constructed, some say refurbished in the first instance by Prophet Ibrahim PBUH after 40 years of reconstructing and refurbishing the first Islamic Holiest Shrine; ‘Al Masjid Al Haram’ in ‘Mecca the Blessed’. And this view also gains inference from the Holy Qur’an for, Allah Almighty discloses in the Holy Qur’an the blessedness of the Holy Land round about 600 years before the era of Prophet Moses PBUH and round about 1000 years before the era of Prophets Kings Suleiman and Daud PBUT. And this is the era which is tallied to the era of Prophet Ibrahim PBUH that is round about 4000 years ago from today. Allah Almighty says:
“We said, O Fire! Be thou cool and safety for Ibrahim. Then they planned against him, but We made them the greater losers. But We delivered him and (his nephew) Lot (and directed them) to the land which We have blessed for the nations”. (Al-Anbiya 21: 69-71)
This means that Land of Al Qods Al Sharif was blessed by Allah Almighty long before than the era of Prophets Kings Da’ud & Suleiman PBUT.
And Allah Almighty also refers to the command of Prophet Moses to Bani Israel: “O my people! Go into the holy land which Allah hath ordained for you. Turn not in flight, for surely ye turn back as losers.” (Al-Maida 5: 21)
This also implies that Land of Al Qods Al Sharif was blessed by Allah Almighty long before than the era of Prophet Moses PBUH.
And there are holy saying to this effect as well: “Abu Dhar (RA) is quoted as saying, I asked the beloved Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), which was the first Masjid (Mosque) on earth? ‘The Sacred Masjid’ (Mosque) in Mecca,’ he said. And then which, I asked? ‘Masjid al Aqsa,’ he said. I further asked, what was the time span between the two? ‘Forty years,’ the Prophet (peace be upon him) replied”. (Muslim)
Which implies that Prophet Ibrahim PBUH was the first who built Al Masjid Al Aqsa in Al Qods Al Sharif’ after 40 years of building the ‘Al Masjid Al Haram’ in ‘Mecca the Blessed’.
In the holy bibles too it is admitted that after having been settled in the ‘Land of Canaan’ (Al Qods) the Prophet Ibrahim PBUH pitched his tent towards east of the ‘House of God’ (‘Bethel’ in Hebrew, means House Of Allah Almighty), e.g. And he removed from thence unto the mountain on the east of Beth-el, and pitched his tent, having Beth-el on the west, and Aion the east; and he builded there an altar unto the LORD, and called upon the name of the LORD. (Genesis - 12. 8).
This verse of the Genesis also implies that site of ‘Al Beth al Maqdis’ was somehow present over there knowingly at the time of Prophet Ibrahim migration thereto and so after building the Altar in the name of Allah Almighty, he might have refurbished the ‘Beth-el’ (viz House of Allah Almighty) as he did in ‘Mecca the Blessed’ in case of the First Islamic Holiest Shrine; Al Masjid Al Haram. And this is why that Allah Almighty has been referring to the blessedness of the city in the Holy Qur’an long before the era of Prophet Moses and Prophet Suleiman PBUT.
Well, then in Prophet Daud PBUH era after discovering first the Holy Site of the third Muslim Holiest Shrine, the Prophet King Daud PBUH purchased the same for the construction of Al Masjid Al Aqsa and which was practically completed by his son, Prophet King Suleiman PBUH after his succession.
At present and since long the third Muslim Holiest Shrine, ‘Al Haram Al Sharif’ (Al Masjid Al Aqsa) enclosing over 35 acres, comprising of ‘Al Mosque Al Aqsa’ - ‘Al Mosque Al Omar’ - ‘Al Qubbat Al Sakhrah’ (viz Dome of Rock) - ‘Al Qubbat Al Silsilah’ (viz Dome of Chain), David wells, Al Boraq Wall, Islamic Museum, fountains, gardens, buildings, domes, Church of Sepulture and many other numerous sacred entities is known as Al-Haram Al-Sharif or Al Beit Al Maqdis as a whole.
This is the locale which is claimed as ‘Temple Mount’ by Jews and is mentioned as ‘Solomon’s Temple’ by Christian authors. This Muslim Sacred City namely ‘Al Qods’ is situated in a historical region known as Palestine, corruption of the name; Filistin and which is also known by so many other names; The Promised Land’ - ‘The Land of the Book’ - ‘The Land of Canaan’ and Al Ard Maqdis (The Holy Land) etc. And almost all this land of Palestinians is now the territory of Jewish State of Israel.
The Jewish State of Israel which was founded in 1948 is nothing more than the grabbed land of historical region of Palestine. Notoriously known as the Balfour Declaration, was an instrument prepared in March 1916 and issued in November 1917, during World War I, by the British writer Arthur James Balfour, who was the then foreign secretary in the cabinet of Prime Minister David Lloyd George and whereby explicitly expressed the British government's approval of Zionism with “the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people.”
The wall that has enclosed the aforementioned Al Haram Al Shareef was also constructed by Muslim Ottoman Emperor Suleiman the first, during his reign in 1538 AC or according to some sources in 1542 AC.
Given this sacredness, when Al Qods Al Sharif was captured by Islamic Forces, the second Caliph, Omar ibn al-Khattāb viz ‘Farooq the Great’ accepted the request of his presence in person had been made by the Christians for the peaceful surrender of Jerusalem and so on that occasion he (Allah be pleased with him) executed a covenant; “Covenant of Omar” with the then Christians Patriarch Sophronius in the year 637 A.C. In the covenant between the second Caliph and the Patriarch of Jerusalem, a specific proviso had also been incorporated thereto that ‘no Jews shall reside with them i.e. Christians. And since then this third Muslim Holiest Shrine continued to be in Arab Muslims hands for nearly 900 years and in Muslims hands for nearly 1,300 years, with a break for more than one thousand years when Al Qods (Jerusalem) was in the hands of the Crusaders. This is also worth mentioning that since its origination or renovation also this third Muslim Holy Shrine remained in possession and charge of Prophets Kings Daud and Suleiman PBUT and thereafter in possession and charge of their PBUT Muslim successors for many years.
According to Al Qur’an Al Sharif and other authentic historical sources as well David & Solomon were both Prophets and Kings consigned by God Almighty. Allah Almighty therefore reveals in His Holy Qur’an:
“So they routed them by Allah's leave and David slew Goliath; and Allah gave him the kingdom and wisdom, and taught him of that which He willeth. And if Allah had not repelled some men by others the earth would have been corrupted. But Allah is a Lord of Kindness to (His) creatures”. (Surah Al Baqarah 2.251)
“And thy Lord is Best Aware of all who are in the heavens and the earth. And we preferred some of the prophets above others, and unto David We gave the Psalms”.
(Surah Bani Israel - 17.55)
“And We bestowed upon him Isaac and Jacob; each of them We guided; and Noah did We guide aforetime; and of his seed (We guided) David and Solomon and Job and Joseph and Moses and Aaron. Thus do We reward the good”. (Surah Al An’am 6.084)
“Lo! We inspire thee as We inspired Noah and the prophets after him, as We inspired Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the Tribes, and Jesus and Job and Jonah and Aaron and Solomon, and as We imparted unto David the Psalms” (Surah An-Nisa – 4.163)
“And We verily gave knowledge unto David and Solomon, and they said: Praise be to Allah, Who hath preferred us above many of His believing slaves! (Surah An -Naml -27.15)
“And Solomon was David's heir. And he said: O mankind! Lo! we have been taught the language of birds, and have been given (abundance) of all things. This surely is evident favour”. (Surah An -Naml -27.16)
“We gave David bounty from Ourself: "O mountains, echo back [God's praises] along with him! And [so may] the birds." We softened iron for him: "Make suits of armor and measure out the links in mail, and act honorably; I am Observant of anything you do." (Surah Saba - 34.10)
“Solomon possessed the wind; it would blow for a month in one direction and then blow back for [another] month. We melted down a font of brass for him. There were some sprites who worked in front of him by his Lord's permission, and We let any of them who wavered from Our command taste torment from the Blaze. They worked away for him just as he wished on shrines and images, bowls as big as troughs and built-in cauldrons: "Give thanks, O House of David!" Yet few of My servants are grateful”. (Surah Saba 34.12-13)
“Those of the Children of Israel who went astray were cursed by the tongue of David, and of Jesus, son of Mary. That was because they rebelled and used to transgress”. (Surah Al Ma’idah - 5.78)

Aftab Alam Advocate (High Court)
Swat, Pakistan.

[Abisafyan]

Al Masjid Al Aqsa

Part II
As a matter of fact there is no room for doubt in respect of the Prophethood of Prophets David & Solomon PBUT – hence no question of doubt can be arisen that Prophets David & Solomon PBUT would have built anything else than a Mosque, viz ‘House of God’ on the Holy Site. Similarly is the case, in case, Prophet Ibrahim PBUH is supposed the first builder of al Masjid Al Aqsa. For, the Prophets PBUT could not be supposed by any stretch of imagination to build cloister, church, synagogue. And this is why that Allah Almighty has used the term “al Masjid-al Aqsa” for the third Islamic Holiest Shrine, in the Holy Qur’an and not as cloister, church, synagogue or ‘the first temple’ as are being misbelieved by Jews. Occasionally this ‘Islamic Holy Shrine’ has been in occupation of Jews & Christians but this does not connote that the ‘Al Masjid Al Aqsa’ converted into their cloister, church, synagogue or temple. As ‘Al -Masjid-Al-Haram’ at ‘Mecca the Blessed’ had also been in the occupation of nonbelievers intermittently but that did not denote the conversion of the ‘Al -Masjid-Al-Haram’ into cloister, church, synagogue.
To elaborate a little more, here I pose two questions in regard Al Masjid Al Aqsa (viz Al Haram Al Shareef), which are of vital importance; firstly, what was the name of ‘Al Aqsa Mosque’ (the farthest Mosque) viz ‘Al Beit Al Maqdis’ when Jerusalem was occupied in result of a very stern military action by Romans and the same was destroyed by the Roman Commander, Titus, son of the then Roman Emperor, namely Titus Flavius Sabinus Vespasianus in 70 AC? And secondly, what was the name of the ‘Al Aqsa Mosque’ (the farthest Mosque) viz ‘Al Beit Al Maqdis’ when the same was destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar II, King of Babylonia in 587 BC? The most reliable answer is available in the most & only reliable book, Al Qur’an Al Sharif. Allah Almighty says in Holy Qur’an:
To elaborate my point I produce Verse No: 7 of Surah Bani Israel in Arabic as below:

إِنْ أَحْسَنتُمْ أَحْسَنتُمْ لِأَنفُسِكُمْ وَإِنْ أَسَأْتُمْ فَلَهَا فَإِذَا جَاء وَعْدُ الآخِرَةِ لِيَسُوؤُواْ وُجُوهَكُمْ وَلِيَدْخُلُواْ الْمَسْجِدَ كَمَا دَخَلُوهُ أَوَّلَ مَرَّةٍ وَلِيُتَبِّرُواْ مَا عَلَوْاْ تَتْبِيراً
Now its transliteration for convenience of those who can’t read Arabic:
“In ahsantum ahsantum li-anfusikum wa-in asa/tum falaha fa-itha jaa waAAdu al-akhirati liyasoo-oo wujoohakum waliyadkhuloo almasjida kama dakhaloohu awwala marratin waliyutabbiroo ma AAalaw tatbeeran”.
The following are the various English translations of the respective scholars - (the underlining of one particular word in each translation is mine):
Translation by learned Maulana Shakir:
“If you do good, you will do good for your own souls, and if you do evil, it shall be for them. So when the second promise came (We raised another people) that they may bring you to grief and that they may enter the Mosque as they entered it the first time, and that they might destroy whatever they gained ascendancy over with utter destruction.”
Translation by learned Muhsin Khan: (And We said):
"If you do good, you do good for your own selves, and if you do evil (you do it) against yourselves." Then, when the second promise came to pass, (We permitted your enemies) to make your faces sorrowful and to enter the Mosque (of Jerusalem) as they had entered it before, and to destroy with utter destruction all that fell in their hands.
Of course, some of the learned translators have been translating the word ‘almasjida’ (viz Al-Masjid) in Holy Verse No: 7 of Surah Bani Israel into the word temple:
Translation by learned Abdullah Yousuf Ali:
“If ye did well, ye did well for yourselves; if ye did evil, (ye did it) against yourselves. So when the second of the warnings came to pass, (We permitted your enemies) to disfigure your faces, and to enter your Temple as they had entered it before, and to visit with destruction all that fell into their power”.
Translation by learned Marmadduki Pickthall:
“(Saying): If ye do good, ye do good for your own souls, and if ye do evil, it is for them (in like manner). So, when the time for the second (of the judgments) came (We roused against you others of Our slaves) to ravage you, and to enter the Temple even as they entered it the first time, and to lay waste all that they conquered with an utter wasting.”
Translation by learned Arthur J. Arberry:
“If you do good, it is your own souls you do good to, and if you do evil it is to them likewise.’ Then, when the promise of the second came to pass, We sent against you Our servants to discountenance you, and to enter the Temple, as they entered it the first time, and to destroy utterly that which they ascended to.”
Translation by learned Mohammad Assad :
[And We said:] "If you persevere in doing good, you will but be doing good to yourselves; and if you do evil, it will be [done] to yourselves." And so, when the prediction of the second [period of your iniquity] came true, [We raised new enemies against you, and allowed them] to disgrace you utterly, and to enter the Temple as [their forerunners] had entered it once before, and to destroy with utter destruction all that they had conquered”.
This is a bona fide blunder, for as the name of Allah can’t be translation into God, ‘Rasul’ can’t be translated into messenger and similarly a Masjid cannot be translated into synagogue or temple.
Synagogue or temple would mean the worship place of Jews or Christians, for both of them have been using the words; synagogue or temple and never a Masjid (Mosque). Whereas by using the original word ‘almasjida’ in the Holy Verse of Qur’an, Allah Almighty means to disclose that the status of ‘Al Masjid Al Aqsa’ - ‘Al Beth al Maqdis’(Al Haram Al Sharif) was almasjida (Al-Masjid) viz Mosque and never a ‘temple’ or something else. Allah Almighty has mentioned the worship places of Monks, Christians and Jews as sawamiAAun (viz cloisters), biyaAAun, (viz churches) salawatun, (viz synagogues), whereas the name; Masjid or Masajidu has only been given to Muslims worship places. As the following holy Verse amongst other would reveal:
الَّذِينَ أُخْرِجُوا مِن دِيَارِهِمْ بِغَيْرِ حَقٍّ إِلَّا أَن يَقُولُوا رَبُّنَا اللَّهُ وَلَوْلَا دَفْعُ اللَّهِ النَّاسَ بَعْضَهُم بِبَعْضٍ لَّهُدِّمَتْ صَوَامِعُ وَبِيَعٌ وَصَلَوَاتٌ وَمَسَاجِدُ يُذْكَرُ فِيهَا اسْمُ اللَّهِ كَثِيراً وَلَيَنصُرَنَّ اللَّهُ مَن يَنصُرُهُ إِنَّ اللَّهَ لَقَوِيٌّ عَزِي
“Those who have been wronged are permitted to fight (back) - since Allah is Able to support them - any who have been driven from their homes unjustly, merely because they say: "Our Lord is Allah [Alone]." If it were not because God repels some men by means of others, cloisters, churches, synagogues and masajid (Mosques), where God's name is mentioned frequently would have been demolished.” (Surah Al Hajj 22.40)
All the above mentioned three Grandest and the Holiest Religious Shrines in the world has also mentioned as Mosques by the Prophet Mohammad PBUH. Abu Huraira [RA] is quoted as saying that Allah’s Messenger [peace be upon him] said, ‘set out deliberately on a journey only to three mosques: this mosque of mine (in Medina), the Sacred Mosque (in Makkah) and the Masjid al Aqsa (in Jerusalem) (Bukhari & Muslim).
Thus we the Muslims being the lone heir of the ‘Farthest Mosque’ - (al-Masjid al-Aqsa) whose precincts Allah Almighty did bless - that is to say the whole Al-Qods Al Sharif is owned by Muslims alone exclusively and no other nonbeliever nation has anything to do with the whole Al-Qods Al Shareef whatsoever, save some easements as had been granted by the second Caliph, Omar ‘Farooq the Great’ (may Allah be pleased with him). So I want my all the learned scholars and translators to make sure the correction pointed out above.
All the three Grandest and Holiest Religious Shrines in the world i.e. (i) ‘Al-Masjid-Al-Haram’ (viz Mosque of Inviolable) or “Beth Allah Sharif” at ‘Mecca-Al-Mukkaramah’ (viz Mecca the Blessed), (ii) ‘Mosque of Prophet’ at ‘Medinah-Al-Munawwara’ (viz Medinah the Radiant) (iii) and the ‘Al Masjid Al Aqsa’ or ‘Al Beth Al Maqdis’ or ‘Al-Haram Al-Sharif’ were built by Prophets (PBUT) primarily. Being so Prophets PBUT were not supposed to built cloisters, churches, synagogues. ‘Al-Masjid-Al-Haram’ (viz Mosque of Inviolable) or “Beth Allah Sharif” at ‘Mecca Al-Mukkaramah’ was built by the first human being & Prophet, Adam PBUH in the first instance. And afterwards the most authentic Book, Al Qur’an Al Sharif and other record shows it was reconstructed & refurbished by Prophet Ibrahim PBUH and there was no question of Judaism or Christianity at that time!!! Allah Almighty reveals and endorses in the Holy Qur’an the highest positions of Prophets Adam, Noah, Ibrahim and Imran and their family PBUT.
“Lo! Allah preferred Adam and Noah and the Family of Abraham and the Family of 'Imran above (all His) creatures. They were descendants one of another. Allah is Hearer, Knower.”
(Al Qur’an 3.33-34)
Whereas the ‘Dome of the Rock’ (viz Qubbat As-Sakhrah in Arabic) is the integral part of the ‘Noble Sanctuary’ - ‘Al Haram Al Shareef’ - the ‘Third Holiest Islamic Shrine’ situated in Jerusalem (viz Al Qods Al Sharif) Palestine. The 9th Caliph, Abd al-Malik built the ‘Dome of the Rock’ in 72 AH or between 687 and 691CE by the Byzantine craftsmen from Constantinople sent to the Caliph by the then Byzantine Emperor.
The ‘Al Aqsa Mosque’ - ‘Al Haram As Sharif’ or ‘Al Beit al Maqdis’ was originated by Prophet Daud (viz Prophet David) PBUH and completed by Prophet Suleiman (viz Prophet Solomon) PBUH. There is a ‘Noble Sanctuary’ or ‘Bethel Maqdis’ or ‘Al-Haram Al-Sharif’ at the heart of Jerusalem enclosing over 35 acres of fountains, wells, mihrabs, gardens, buildings domes and gates. The Holy ‘Al-Aqsa Mosque’ is situated in the southernmost part and the much celebrated ‘Dome of the Rock’ (viz Qubbat As-Sakhrah) is located somewhat in the centre towards the northern part of the Noble Sanctuary’ abovementioned. Whereas on the left of the ‘Holy Al-Aqsa Mosque’ lies the famous ‘Holy Omar Mosque’ which was built by the second rightly guided Caliph, Omar, namely, ‘Farooq the Great’ (may Allah be pleased with him) in the ‘Baithul Maqdis’ also known as ‘Al-Haram Al-Shareef,’ in 637 AC after conquering the Jerusalem. The entire area or the ‘Noble Sanctuary’ is regarded as a Mosque and comprises nearly one sixth of the walled city of Jerusalem (viz Al-Qods Al Sharif). It is also worth mentioning that the ‘Rock’(viz As-Sakhrah) was fixed inside the Dome (viz Qubbat), by the 5th Caliph, Abd al-Malik during building the ‘Dome of Rock’ (viz Qubbat As-Sakhrah) in 72 Hijra (viz 691 AC) - and that is the ‘Rock’ which is believed by Muslims to be the spot from which Prophet Muhammad PBUH ascended through the heavens to Allah Almighty while accompanied by the archangel, Gabriel during his ‘Miraculous Night Journey’ referred to in holy verse 17-1, Surah Bani Israel.
Two questions in this regard are of vital importance;
firstly, what was the name of ‘Al Masjid Al Aqsa’ (The Farthest Mosque) (viz Beth-al- Maqdis) when Jerusalem was captured in result of a very stern military action by Romans and the same was destroyed by the Roman Commander, Titus, son of the then Roman emperor, ‘Titus Flavius Sabinus Vespasianus’ in 70 AC? And,
secondly, what was the name of the ‘Al Masjid Al Aqsa’ (The Farthest Mosque) when the same was destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar II, King of Babylonia in 587 BCE?
Allah Almighty says in Holy Qur’an:
“Glory to (Allah) Who did take His servant for a Journey by night from the Sacred Mosque (al-Masjid al-Haram) to the farthest Mosque, (al-Masjid al-Aqsa) whose precincts We did bless, in order that We might show him some of Our Signs for He is the One Who heareth and seeth (all things).” (Surah Bani Israel/Al Isra - 17:1)
Whereas in Holy Verse No: 7 of the same Surah, Allah Almighty covers the two times destruction of this Holy Place of Muslim worship; ‘Al Aqsa Mosque’ (The Farthest Mosque) (viz Al Beth al Maqdis) at two different occasions; once in 70 AC and secondly in 587 BC in the words:
“If ye did well, ye did well for yourselves; if ye did evil, (ye did it) against yourselves. So when the second of the warnings came to pass, (We Permitted your enemies) to disfigure your faces, and to enter your Masjid (viz Al Beth al Maqdis) - As they had entered it before (in 587 BC), and to visit with destruction all that fell into their power.” (Surah Bani Israel - 17.7).
Here in both of these Holy Verses, Allah Almighty has disclosed the fact that status of the Holy Place of worship referred to above was that of a ‘Masjid’ right from the outset. Gold can’t be altered by putting it in the dirt. Putting idols or other unholy things in such Holy places in odd times of Muslims does not mean alteration of their original rank.
The ‘Al -Masjid-Al-Haram’ was also cleaned out of idols by Prophet Mohammad PBUH immediately after the victorious entry in the ‘Mecca the Blessed’. All the world’s three holiest shrines are ‘Divine’ means pertaining to Allah Almighty and ‘Islamic’ which signifies, pertaining to Islam, and were originated and built by Prophets PBUT of Islam originally hence they are legacy of Islam & Prophets PBUT of Islam and thus Muslims are the only legal, legitimate and exclusive successors & heirs in re thereof . For all Prophets PBUT right from the first Prophet Adam PBUH to the last Prophet Mohammad PBUH were Muslims and preaching nothing but Islam. And thus the converts from Islam e.g. Jews or other nonbelievers have nothing to do with the legacy of Islam & Prophets PBUT of Islam, for none of them (viz world three holiest shrines) had ever been built as temple. How Prophets PBUT of Allah Almighty could be supposed to built temples or synagogues?

Aftab Alam Advocate (High Court)
Swat, Pakistan.

[Alessan]

You want Jerusalem? Come and take it.

[Lobohan]

Originally Posted by Alessan

You want Jerusalem? Come and take it.

Oh, the intarweb penises! They're being measured!

[tomndebb]

Merged with identically named but (sorta) separate thread.

[tomndebb]

Originally Posted by Alessan

You want Jerusalem? Come and take it.

This is not helpful.

You may contest the claims (theological or political) of the OP in Great Debates. To simply issuing a hostile challenge, go open a thread in The BBQ Pit.

[ /Modding ]

[Alessan]

Yeah, you're probably right. I apologize.

I still think the OP should say what he wants to say instead of dancing around the subject. Get to the heart of the matter, so to speak.

[tomndebb]

Originally Posted by Alessan

I still think the OP should say what he wants to say instead of dancing around the subject. Get to the heart of the matter, so to speak.

I thought he was pretty clear, (if employing convoluted language to get there):

If we simply re-define the terms that anyone other than Muslims mean to identify the structures that have built on that location and then accept Muslim mythology that the Temple Mount had been dedicated by God for a Muslim location hundreds of years prior to the birth of Mohammed, then we can simply declare that any other use is bad and declare a supreme legitimacy for Al Masjid Al Aqsa.

Of course, given that few people, (limited to about one poster on this board), are going to actually agree to redefining words and accepting one mythology over another as some sort of historical "fact," the discussion is pretty well doomed from the start, but the intent was clear.

[Revtim]

Originally Posted by Abisafyan

Islam being the Divine Religion it is Divine Oriented.

No, it's not. Please provide evidence or logical reasoning why I should believe it is in any sense "divine", and not simply one of the many other religions/mythologies I have rejected.

[John Mace]

You lost me at "Part I". But witness away-- that's one purpose of this forum.

[Alessan]

Originally Posted by tomndebb

I thought he was pretty clear, (if employing convoluted language to get there):

If we simply re-define the terms that anyone other than Muslims mean to identify the structures that have built on that location and then accept Muslim mythology that the Temple Mount had been dedicated by God for a Muslim location hundreds of years prior to the birth of Mohammed, then we can simply declare that any other use is bad and declare a supreme legitimacy for Al Masjid Al Aqsa.

Of course, given that few people, (limited to about one poster on this board), are going to actually agree to redefining words and accepting one mythology over another as some sort of historical "fact," the discussion is pretty well doomed from the start, but the intent was clear.

You're reading it as a religious argument. It isn't - It's a political statement. What the OP is saying is that the Jews have no historical connection to Jerusalem; that in fact, they are merely "converted Muslims".

It's nothing I haven't heard before, of course, and nothing worth taking seriously. I just didn't want anyone to think we were discussing theology here.

[mutantmoose]

One thing that's always struck me as odd:

Abraham supposedly founded Mecca when he was there with his baby son, Ishmael. But Islamic tradition holds that Ishmael actually helped him build the Kaaba so that means that Abraham has to be made to make a second trip to Mecca when his son is about old enough to help with the building work. It has been generally agreed that the youngest age at which Ishmael could help with building would be 15. So Abraham makes one trip down to Mecca and then another one 15 years later.

Since Abraham hung out mainly in the Israel/Egypt area then this trip would have been an enormous expedition. Hundreds of miles across the desert, taking months to complete and requiring a huge cavalcade of camels carrying supplies etc. And Abraham would have been in his 80s or 90s when he did this. And he did it not once but twice.

Kinda strange that the bible makes no mention of it, don't you think? Even just one throwaway line about it would at least provide some back up. Maybe something like: "And lo, while all this Egypt stuff was going on, Abraham did take himself off somewhere south for no particular reason and was gone for 9 months"

[BrainGlutton]

Originally Posted by tomndebb

This is not helpful.

You may contest the claims (theological or political) of the OP in Great Debates. To simply issuing a hostile challenge, go open a thread in The BBQ Pit.

[ /Modding ]

Here's a serious suggestion, then: The U.S. should nuke Jerusalem. Evacuate the population, give them each $100 for the inconvenience, and salt it with bombs so dirty nobody can approach the site without a lead suit for a hundred years. In the interest of world peace and quiet.

[mutantmoose]

What would that achieve?

They'd still argue about ownership while they waited for the site to cool down. As long as the site is still there they'd continue to argue about it. The only way would be to detonate the earth itself so it is smashed into tiny fragments and no longer exists as a body in space. Then there would be no site to argue over.

The only other way would be to execute all the religious people but we don't wanna go there again.

Although it has occurred to me that maybe the only way to solve the problem would be if the US simply imposed a solution. Send in the army, draw a line somewhere and say "right that's your state and that's your state. Live with it" But that would require the US taking a much harder line with Israel than they do at the moment.

[Kobal2]

Originally Posted by BrainGlutton

Here's a serious suggestion, then: The U.S. should nuke Jerusalem. Evacuate the population, give them each $100 for the inconvenience, and salt it with bombs so dirty nobody can approach the site without a lead suit for a hundred years. In the interest of world peace and quiet.

Wouldn't work. The Muslims would just begrudge you for using King Solomon's evidently intrinsically Zionist Judgement

[Alessan]

Originally Posted by BrainGlutton

Here's a serious suggestion, then: The U.S. should nuke Jerusalem. Evacuate the population, give them each $100 for the inconvenience, and salt it with bombs so dirty nobody can approach the site without a lead suit for a hundred years. In the interest of world peace and quiet.

Nah. You see, there's this great sushi place off Jaffa Street, and I'd hate to see it incinerated in a nuclear holocaust. You know what? If it ever goes under, I'll let you know.

[The Other Waldo Pepper]

Originally Posted by tomndebb

This is not helpful.

You may contest the claims (theological or political) of the OP in Great Debates. To simply issuing a hostile challenge, go open a thread in The BBQ Pit.

[ /Modding ]

I think there's room for it to be a relevant claim-contesting bit, though. As per the OP:

What I want to bring forth is to find out the answer of a very vital question; whether ‘Al Masjid Al Aqsa’ (the Farthest Mosque viz Al Beth-al-Maqdis) was built as Masjid (Mosque), synagogue or temple right from the inception? This is something of paramount importance to calm-down the conflict between the contender claimants; Muslims, Jews & Christians.

And almost all this land of Palestinians is now the territory of Jewish State of Israel.

If I take Alessan's meaning correctly, he's contesting whether that "very vital question ... is something of paramount importance". Alessan apparently doesn't, in general, believe that question is of paramount importance to calm down the conflict between the contender claimants; he apparently believes, in particular, that it of course won't stop being the territory of Israel regardless of what answer we give that allegedly vital question of allegedly paramount importance.

I agree, naturally.

[Alessan]

As an Israeli and a Zionist, I agree with you.

As a Doper, I'm appalled: denying the fact that a Jewish temple once stood on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem is as crazyas denying the moon landings. The fact that the OP seems to be doing so, and is relying on no better evidence that a book written 600 years later, offends me at an intellectual level.

I'm offended not as a Jew, but as a rational human being.

[BrainGlutton]

Originally Posted by Alessan

As an Israeli and a Zionist, I agree with you.

As a Doper, I'm appalled: denying the fact that a Jewish temple once stood on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem is as crazyas denying the moon landings. The fact that the OP seems to be doing so, and is relying on no better evidence that a book written 600 years later, offends me at an intellectual level.

I'm offended not as a Jew, but as a rational human being.

It is certain that once there was a Jewish Temple in Jerusalem, but I thought there was some controversy as to its precise location.

[Der Trihs]

Originally Posted by Abisafyan

Islam being the Divine Religion it is Divine Oriented. So its name, its origin, its averments, its nitty gritty and all of its injunctions, mandatory or prohibitory and including the world three ‘Islamic Holiest Shrines’ are also Divine. Conversely all other creeds are man oriented and so their manes, origin, averments and fundamentals are also synthetic and all its extract including their shrines are also man-oriented.

As said, you have no evidence that Islam is any more divine than any other religion. You also have no evidence that if it is, we should consider it in any way superior to "man oriented" religions. "Are we not Men?"





"We are Devo!"

[Capitaine Zombie]

Originally Posted by BrainGlutton

It is certain that once there was a Jewish Temple in Jerusalem, but I thought there was some controversy as to its precise location.

No, there just needs to be a Jewish Temple in a city to permanently mark it as Jewish territory till the end of Human History.

[Derleth]

Originally Posted by BrainGlutton

Here's a serious suggestion, then: The U.S. should nuke Jerusalem. Evacuate the population, give them each $100 for the inconvenience, and salt it with bombs so dirty nobody can approach the site without a lead suit for a hundred years. In the interest of world peace and quiet.

How much of the Earth do you want to glass? Stupid territorial disputes between morally-equivalent bands of zealots don't begin with that tiny corner of the Middle East and they certainly don't end there.

[Argent Towers]

You guys have so much land, so many huge countries. Isn't there room for just one little Jewish temple? You vant ve should have nothing?

[Abisafyan]

Mosque
A mosque is a place of worship for followers of the Islamic faith. Muslims often refer to the mosque by its Arabic name, masjid Arabic: مسجد — pronounced: // (pl. masajid Arabic: مساجد — pronounced: //). The word "mosque" in English refers to all types of buildings dedicated for Islamic worship, although there is a distinction in Arabic between the smaller, privately owned mosque and the larger, "collective" mosque (masjid jami) (Arabic: جامع), which has more community and social amenities.

This article uses material from Wikipedia® and is licensed under the GNU Free Documentation License

Official Islam Glossary for Introduction to Religion

Mosque
The mosque (masjid in Arabic) is a house of prayer for community worship. The main prayer hall of a mosque is usually fairly empty; having floors covered with fine carpets rather than chairs. The hall has a niche--called a mihrab--which indicates the direction of Mecca , towards which prayers are offered. Although the prayers which Moslems pray five times a day can be said in private--or wherever a person happens to be--the mosque is seen as the place for communal prayer, especially on Friday. To call worshippers to prayer, the muezzin climbs the mosque's minaret and chants the call. As a religious center, a mosque may have a number of institutions attached to it; these may include a college, an alms kitchen for the poor, a hospital, a library, a primary school, a cemetery, and so on. See also Friday Mosque .

mosque
Noun
1. (Islam) a Muslim place of worship
(synonym) masjid, musjid
(hypernym) place of worship, house of prayer, house of God, house of worship
(part-meronym) mihrab
(classification) Islam, Islamism, Mohammedanism, Muhammadanism, Muslimism


English-Urdu dictionary
Browse

mosque
n. masjid


Concise Oxford English Dictionary


mosque
■ noun a Muslim place of worship.


ME: from Fr. mosquée, via Ital. and Sp. from Egyptian Arab. masgid.


© Oxford University Press, 2004


community and social amenities.


This article uses material from Wikipedia® and is licensed under the GNU Free Documentation License


masjid
________________________________________
Noun
1. (Islam) a Muslim place of worship
(synonym) mosque, musjid
(hypernym) place of worship, house of prayer, house of God, house of worship
(part-meronym) mihrab
(classification) Islam, Islamism, Mohammedanism, Muhammadanism, Muslimism



Concise Oxford English Dictionary



masjid
■ noun a mosque.

[Alessan]

Congratulations - you can look a word up in a dictionary.

[Gyrate]

Originally Posted by Alessan

You want Jerusalem? Come and take it.

I would, but where would I keep it?

[tomndebb]

Originally Posted by Abisafyan

Mosque
A mosque is a place of worship for followers of the Islamic faith.
. . .

Congratulations. You have been able to provide a definition for the word mosque--a definition that was already well-known to all the readers of this forum.

Of course, this does not actually address the way in which you have arbitrarily redefined the word temple (or the anachronistic employment of the word synagogue) in your initial harangue. It does nothing to support your contention that the Masjid Al Aqsa has some sort of divine right to sit on the Temple Mount. (I do not argue that the mosque should be, in any way, harmed or removed, but you are making a claim for a whole city, not just the mosque, that is based on a religious belief and you are employing shifting definitions to (fail to) support your claim.)

[Malthus]

Originally Posted by BrainGlutton

It is certain that once there was a Jewish Temple in Jerusalem, but I thought there was some controversy as to its precise location.

If you are discussing the last version of the Temple, there is no great controversy over where it was located - at least, the compound in which it was located. This is marked out with enormous retaining walls, built by Harod the Great, some of which still survive today - they are a very impressive sight.

[Malthus]

Is it of any importance in the Muslim world that, although the mosque lies within the Israeli city of Jerusalem, it is actually governed (with Israeli concurrance) by an Islamic foundation? Seems it is already under Muslim jurisdiction.

[Alessan]

Originally Posted by Malthus

If you are discussing the last version of the Temple, there is no great controversy over where it was located - at least, the compound in which it was located. This is marked out with enormous retaining walls, built by Harod the Great, some of which still survive today - they are a very impressive sight.

In all likelihood, the Temple was located at or near the current location of the Dome of the Rock - and not the Al-Aqsa Mosque, which is a bit to the south.

[Malthus]

Originally Posted by Alessan

In all likelihood, the Temple was located at or near the current location of the Dome of the Rock - and not the Al-Aqsa Mosque, which is a bit to the south.

It should be explained to others, though I'm sure you know, that both lie within the (big) compound supported by the retaining walls - the so-called "Temple Mount".

[Abisafyan]

Synagogue
A synagogue (from , transliterated synagogē, "assembly"; beit knesset, "house of assembly"; or beit tefila, "house of prayer", shul; , esnoga) is a Jewish house of worship.
Synagogues usually have a large hall for prayer (the main sanctuary), smaller rooms for study, and sometimes a social hall and offices. Some have a separate room for Torah study, called the Beit midrash - בית מדרש ("House of Study").
Many Orthodox and Conservative Jews in English-speaking countries use the Yiddish term "shul." The use of "synagogue" is reserved for formal occasions. Spanish and Portuguese Jews call the synagogue an esnoga. Persian Jews and Karaite Jews use the term Kenesa, which is derived from Aramaic. Reform and Conservative congregations in the United States sometimes use the word "temple."


Babylon French-English
Browse


synagogue (f)
n. synagogue, congregation of Jews for the purpose of worship and religious instruction; building for Jewish worship and religious instruction




Rakefet
Browse


Synagog
Synagog, Synagogue [from synagoge an assembly; translation of Hebrew khenesheth, Aramaic khenash a congregation] Originally a gathering of Jews for worship or religious instruction, but later applied to the building in which the gatherings were held. As a characteristic Jewish institution, the synagog rose to prominence after the reforms instituted by Ezra, for the gatherings were the means whereby the populace received instruction, especially in the reading of the law on every Sabbath. The rites on Sabbath morning as outlined in the Mishnah consisted of readings from the Old Testament (particularly from Deuteronomy and Numbers), followed by prayer, then the lessons from the law and the prophets, a sermon thereon, and finally the blessing.
The building was generally, in accordance with ancient mystery-habits, situated near a body of water and orientated from north to south, the synagog having three doors to the south; the interior was divided by columns into a nave and two aisles.



Easton's Bible Dictionary
Browse


Synagogue
(Gr. sunagoge, i.e., "an assembly"), found only once in the Authorized Version of Ps. 74:8, where the margin of Revised Version has "places of assembly," which is probably correct; for while the origin of synagogues is unknown, it may well be supposed that buildings or tents for the accommodation of worshippers may have existed in the land from an early time, and thus the system of synagogues would be gradually developed. Some, however, are of opinion that it was specially during the Babylonian captivity that the system of synagogue worship, if not actually introduced, was at least reorganized on a systematic plan (Ezek. 8:1; 14:1). The exiles gathered together for the reading of the law and the prophets as they had opportunity, and after their return synagogues were established all over the land (Ezra 8:15; Neh. 8:2). In after years, when the Jews were dispersed abroad, wherever they went they erected synagogues and kept up the stated services of worship (Acts 9:20; 13:5; 17:1; 17:17; 18:4). The form and internal arrangements of the synagogue would greatly depend on the wealth of the Jews who erected it, and on the place where it was built. "Yet there are certain traditional pecularities which have doubtless united together by a common resemblance the Jewish synagogues of all ages and countries. The arrangements for the women's place in a separate gallery or behind a partition of lattice-work; the desk in the centre, where the reader, like Ezra in ancient days, from his 'pulpit of wood,' may 'open the book in the sight of all of people and read in the book of the law of God distinctly, and give the sense, and cause them to understand the reading' (Neh. 8:4, 8); the carefully closed ark on the side of the building nearest to Jerusalem, for the preservation of the rolls or manuscripts of the law; the seats all round the building, whence 'the eyes of all them that are in the synagogue' may 'be fastened' on him who speaks (Luke 4:20); the 'chief seats' (Matt. 23:6) which were appropriated to the 'ruler' or 'rulers' of the synagogue, according as its organization may have been more or less complete;", these were features common to all the synagogues. Where perfected into a system, the services of the synagogue, which were at the same hours as those of the temple, consisted, (1) of prayer, which formed a kind of liturgy, there were in all eighteen prayers; (2) the reading of the Scriptures in certain definite portions; and (3) the exposition of the portions read. (See Luke 4:15, 22; Acts 13:14.) The synagogue was also sometimes used as a court of judicature, in which the rulers presided (Matt. 10:17; Mark 5:22; Luke 12:11; 21:12; Acts 13:15; 22:19); also as public schools. The establishment of synagogues wherever the Jews were found in sufficient numbers helped greatly to keep alive Israel's hope of the coming of the Messiah, and to prepare the way for the spread of the gospel in other lands. The worship of the Christian Church was afterwards modelled after that of the synagogue. Christ and his disciples frequently taught in the synagogues (Matt. 13:54; Mark 6:2; John 18:20; Acts 13:5, 15, 44; 14:1; 17:2-4, 10, 17; 18:4, 26; 19:8). To be "put out of the synagogue," a phrase used by John (9:22; 12:42; 16:2), means to be excommunicated.



Concise Oxford English Dictionary

synagogue
■ noun a building where a Jewish assembly or congregation meets for religious observance and instruction. ▶such an assembly or congregation.

[Abisafyan]

Cloister
A cloister (from Latin claustrum) is a part of cathedral, monastic and abbey architecture. A cloister consists usually of four corridors, with a courtyard or garth in the middle. It is intended to be both covered from the rain, but open to the air. The attachment of a cloister to a Cathedral church usually indicates that it is (or was once) a monastic foundation.

This article uses material from Wikipedia® and is licensed under the GNU Free Documentation License
church
n. building in which Christians meet to worship; public worship; members of a religious denomination; denomination; leaders of a religious body; organized religion


v. take to church; conduct a special service (in thanks for the safe delivery of a child)


Wikipedia English - The Free Encyclopedia


Church
A church is an association of people who share a particular belief system. The term church originated from Greek "κυριακή" - "kyriake", meaning "of the lord". The term later began to replace the Greek ekklesia and basilica within Christendom, c. AD 300, though it was used by Christians before that time.



Concise Oxford English Dictionary



church
■ noun
a building used for public Christian worship.
(Church) a particular Christian organization with its own distinctive doctrines.
institutionalized religion as a political or social force: the separation of church and state.
■ verb archaic take (a woman who has recently given birth) to church for a service of thanksgiving.

[Mr. Excellent]

Originally Posted by Gyrate

I would, but where would I keep it?

You know, I'm always amazed at how much stuff I manage to cram under my sofa. Just sayin'.

(If I take Jerusalem, do I get the sushi place too? I like sushi!)

[Ludovic]

I mean, I know that some Islamic traditions place an emphasis on rote memorization, but come on....

[Mr. Excellent]

Abisafyan, it might be easier to read your posts if you adhered to a couple of the Dope's conventions for Great Debate Threads:

1.) Try to post more concisely. Sometimes it's necessary to speak at length, of course - but you can put a *lot* of argument into one or two paragraphs, especially if you:

2.) Focus upon the remarks made by other posters, and respond to them. You can use the QUOTE tag to extract remarks from other posters,

like so,

and this makes it easier for people to understand which points you're responding to. It also makes it less likely you'll end up posting giant walls-of-text, since copying-and-pasting from a dictionary is not really responsive to more actual comments you're likely to get.

/Not a mod, but feeling helpful

[Mr. Excellent]

Originally Posted by Ludovic

I mean, I know that some Islamic traditions place an emphasis on rote memorization, but come on....

Oh, man - I just reazlied what the OP reminds me of. My junior year of college, we had a local imam come in to give a lecture on the history of Islam, religious tolerance, and so on. Good, useful, praiseworthy stuff, and I appreciate the fellow taking time out of his day to do it.

But good grief - the entire lecture consisted of overhead transparencies (remember those?), loaded with giant blocks of text and read verbatim. Painful.

[sqweels]

Originally Posted by BrainGlutton

Here's a serious suggestion, then: The U.S. should nuke Jerusalem. Evacuate the population, give them each $100 for the inconvenience, and salt it with bombs so dirty nobody can approach the site without a lead suit for a hundred years. In the interest of world peace and quiet.

Hey, you ripped that idea off from me!

God is immune to radiation, so let Him have the place to Himself.

[Abisafyan]

Originally Posted by Mr. Excellent

Abisafyan, it might be easier to read your posts if you adhered to a couple of the Dope's conventions for Great Debate Threads:

1.) Try to post more concisely. Sometimes it's necessary to speak at length, of course - but you can put a *lot* of argument into one or two paragraphs, especially if you:

2.) Focus upon the remarks made by other posters, and respond to them. You can use the QUOTE tag to extract remarks from other posters,



and this makes it easier for people to understand which points you're responding to. It also makes it less likely you'll end up posting giant walls-of-text, since copying-and-pasting from a dictionary is not really responsive to more actual comments you're likely to get.

/Not a mod, but feeling helpful

Thanks, for tolerating me & my lenghty posts, you all are cool, cooperative & accomodative honorable members.
You know posts are supposedly written for those who have no or little command over history, so, I want to deal such topics exhaustively....anyhow I am v v grateful.
I will try to respect the rules.

[Jackmannii]

Perhaps the only realistic way to settle the argument over who gets land based on what God wanted and who was there first, is for one side to perfect its time travel and Terminator technology.

Go back to key times of settlement and whoever got the Revealed Truth about their deity's preferences, eliminate that person(s) in favor of the opposition and the present-day conflict is magically resolved.

The time machine part is tough, but Arnold should have a bunch of free time soon and conceivably could still handle the Terminator job.

[Alessan]

Originally Posted by Abisafyan

You know posts are supposedly written for those who have no or little command over history, so, I want to deal such topics exhaustively....anyhow I am v v grateful.

Assuming your audience is ignorant is a very arrogant approach.

[FinnAgain]

Originally Posted by Jackmannii

Perhaps the only realistic way to settle the argument over who gets land based on what God wanted and who was there first, is for one side to perfect its time travel and Terminator technology.

Go back to key times of settlement and whoever got the Revealed Truth about their deity's preferences, eliminate that person(s) in favor of the opposition and the present-day conflict is magically resolved.

The time machine part is tough, but Arnold should have a bunch of free time soon and conceivably could still handle the Terminator job.

Reminds me of an old joke: while at the negotiating table, the Israeli and Palestinian ambassadors are unable to reach any kind of agreement, whatsoever.

Frustrated, the Israeli ambassador throws up his hands and says "All of our problems stem from ancient times. When the ancient Jews first moved into the region, whenever they would leave their fortified encampments, Muslims would ambush and murder them!"

The Palestinian ambassador responsds "Zionist lies and propaganda! There were no Muslims back then!"

"Ah hah!" says the Israeli ambassador "Now that we've agreed on that, we can continue."

[Bryan Ekers]

Originally Posted by BrainGlutton

Here's a serious suggestion, then: The U.S. should nuke Jerusalem.

Great. It'll be "Nukes Year in Jerusalem."


Anyway, I can think of few arguments I'd find less convincing than one sprinkled with quotes from scripture.

[Dissonance]

Originally Posted by BrainGlutton

Here's a serious suggestion, then: The U.S. should nuke Jerusalem. Evacuate the population, give them each $100 for the inconvenience, and salt it with bombs so dirty nobody can approach the site without a lead suit for a hundred years. In the interest of world peace and quiet.

Oddly (or perhaps not) Swimming to Cambodia popped into my mind on reading this. The bit where Spalding Grey was describing the scene in The Killing Fields where the Americans are handing out $100 to anyone who lost a family member and $50 to anyone who lost a limb when a B-52 accidentally bombed a town in Cambodia.

[foolsguinea]

Originally Posted by Alessan

You want Jerusalem? Come and take it.

I'm with Alessan here. Well, not on his side, but still. Enough posturing. You two camps just fight it out. Jews & Muslims, until someone says "uncle." I'm sick of the whining by poseurs.

(Granted, here in the USA, we get more access to FLAME's Jewish whining about how Palestinians don't really exist, so I appreciate the Muslim side making an English-language showing.)

[sqweels]

Originally Posted by foolsguinea

I'm with Alessan here. Well, not on his side, but still. Enough posturing. You two camps just fight it out. Jews & Muslims, until someone says "uncle." I'm sick of the whining by poseurs.

Just so long as we don't have to pay-per-view to watch it.

But seriously, that's what's happening:

Step 1: Attack American skyscrapers.
Step 2: Attack American cities with nuclear weapons.
Once the US has been thus persuaded to stop supporting Israel, then Step 3: Invade Israel.

[Ludovic]

Originally Posted by sqweels

Just so long as we don't have to pay-per-view to watch it.

But seriously, that's what's happening:

Step 1: Attack American skyscrapers.
Step 2: Attack American cities with nuclear weapons.
Once the US has been thus persuaded to stop supporting Israel, then Step 3: Invade Israel.

Step 4: Prophet!

[Abisafyan]

Originally Posted by mutantmoose

One thing that's always struck me as odd:

Abraham supposedly founded Mecca when he was there with his baby son, Ishmael. But Islamic tradition holds that Ishmael actually helped him build the Kaaba so that means that Abraham has to be made to make a second trip to Mecca when his son is about old enough to help with the building work. It has been generally agreed that the youngest age at which Ishmael could help with building would be 15. So Abraham makes one trip down to Mecca and then another one 15 years later.

Since Abraham hung out mainly in the Israel/Egypt area then this trip would have been an enormous expedition. Hundreds of miles across the desert, taking months to complete and requiring a huge cavalcade of camels carrying supplies etc. And Abraham would have been in his 80s or 90s when he did this. And he did it not once but twice.

Kinda strange that the bible makes no mention of it, don't you think? Even just one throwaway line about it would at least provide some back up. Maybe something like: "And lo, while all this Egypt stuff was going on, Abraham did take himself off somewhere south for no particular reason and was gone for 9 months"

Abul Anbiyaa, Prophet Ibrahim - Abraham PBUH:
Almighty Allah says in the Holy Qur’an;
“Ibrahim was neither a Jew, nor a Nasara; but he was an upright Muslim and who was not of the idolaters” (Surah Al-e-Imran: 3-67).
Prophet Ibrahim (viz Abraham) PBUH the Abul Anbiyaa, had sent his nephew Prophet Lot (PBUH) in the eastern Jordon, his son Prophet Ishaq (PBUH) in Syria and Palestine and elder son Prophet Isma’il (PBUH) in the interior Arab for preaching Islam. Prophet Ya’qub (PBUH), Prophet Yusuf (PBUH), Prophet Moses (PBUH), Prophet Daud (PBUH), Prophet Suleiman, (PBUH) Prophet Yahya (PBUH) and Prophet Isa Ibn Maryam (PBUT) are descendants of Prophet Ibrahim (PBUH) through his son Prophet Ishaq (Issac) PBUH). While the Arabs and Quraish tribes are Prophet Ibrahim’s descendants through his elder son, Prophet Isma’il (PBUH) - these descendants are also known as ‘Bani Isma’il’ (viz Sons of Isma’il). Since, Prophet Ibrahim’s (PBUH) grandson, Prophet Ya’qub’s (PBUH) name was also Israel hence his descendants are famously known as ‘Bani Israel’ (viz Sons of Israel or People of Israel).
Allah Almighty (SWT) says: “Allah did choose Adam and Noah, the family of Ibrahim, and the family of 'Imran above all people” (Surah Al Imran 3-33).
Noah (PBUH) said; "… my reward is only due from Allah, and I have been commanded to be one from Muslims”. (Yunus: 10-72).
Allah (SWT) says about Ibrahim (PBUH) and his Sons (PBUT):
“when his Lord said to him, be a Muslim, he said: I became Muslim (viz I bow my will) to the Lord and Cherisher of the universe.” (Surah: Al-Baqarah 2-131).
About Prophet Ibrahim sons God says: “and this was the legacy that Prophet Ibrahim left to his sons, and so did Yaqub (viz Jacob); "oh my sons! Allah hath chosen the faith (viz Islam) for you; therefore die not unless you are Muslims”. (Surah: Al-Baqarah: 2-32).
Allah Almighty (SWT) reveals about Prophet Yaqub (viz Prophet Israel) (PBUH): “nay! Were you witness when death visited Yaqub, when he said to his sons: what will you worship after me? They said: ‘we will worship your Allah and the Allah of your fathers; Ibrahim and Ismael and Ishaq, one (true) Allah only, and onto him we are Muslims.” (Al-Baqarah: 2-133).
Allah says about prayers of Prophet Ibrahim (PBUH) & Prophet Ismael (PBUH): "our Lord! Make of us Muslims, (viz bowing to thy will), and of our progeny an Ummah of Muslims (viz bowing to thy will).”
Allah reminds to the unbelievers, “Ye People of the Book! Why dispute ye about Abraham, when the Law (viz Torah) and the Gospel (viz New Testament) were not revealed till after him? Have ye no understanding”? [Surah Al Imran 3:65]
Allah says in respect of Prophet, Lot (PBUH) and His people: “… We found there but one house of Muslim. (Surah: Adh-Dhariyat 51-36).
Prophet Yusuf (Joseph) (AS) prays to Allah: “Make me to die Muslim and join me to the righteous.” (Surah Yusuf 12- 101)
Prophet Moses (PBUH) says to his people: “O my people! If ye have believed in Allah then put trust in Him, if ye are indeed Muslim.” (Younus – Jonah: 10-84)
God says that all Prophets’ of Bani-Israel religion was Islam:
“Lo! We did reveal the Torah (to Moses) - wherein was guidance and a light by which the prophets judged, who were Muslims who then turned Jews”. (Surah: Al-Maeda: 5-44)
Allah (SWT) says about Prophet Isa (PBUH) disciples: “And when I inspired the disciples (saying): believe in me and in my messenger, they said; we believe, bear witness that we are Muslim.” (Surah: Al-Maedah 5-111).
God discloses about Pharaoh: “When the fact of drowning overtook him (pharaoh) he exclaimed; I believe that there is no god save Him (God) in whom the children of Israel believe and I am from Muslims.” (Younus- Jonah: 10-90).
About the Queen Saba God says: “She (Saba) said my Lord! Lo! I become Muslim with Solomon to the Lord of the Worlds.” (Surah: An-Naml 27-44)
Likewise Allah Almighty says in Surah Al-Nahl: “and verily we have risen in every nation a messenger (proclaiming) serve Allah and shun false gods…” - (Surah Nahl 16-36).

[clairobscur]

Thanks to the OP for answering I question I recently had.

I just began to play "Civilization IV" this week (yes, I'm a bit late) and I wondered what was exactly the world wonder "Al-Masjid-Al-Haram" appearing in the game.

One always learns something here.

[mutantmoose]

Thanks for that Abisfyan. That addresses my question from a Muslim perspective but I'm not sure it deals with the question from an outside perspective.

I was looking for some evidence from the Torah (or Old Testament generally) for Abraham's mega trip through the hot arabian desert - some kind of external evidence outside of the Quran.

If you're going to persuade someone like me, a non-muslim, to become a muslim then it would be useful to be able to point to some evidence independent of the Quran that Abraham was a muslim (or had ever heard of the concept of Islam). That's not a lot to ask since the OT was revealed by Allah same as the Quran.