Why do Muslims touch the stone in the Kaaba as part of the Hajj? Before Islam and Muhammed, there were some 365 or more idols in the Kaaba, that were worshipped, each symbolizing some god including one that symbolized Allah. Muhammed conquered Mecca and broke all the idols except the one that symbolized Allah and that is the same one that exists currently in the Kaaba. Some sources say, the image of Jesus and Mary were also spared, although where they are now is unknown. Wherever a Muslim is in the world he is expected to kneel and pray in its direction. They travel long distances from all over the world to go and touch/kiss the stone. Does that not make it similar to idol worship since the stone is considered as representing their Allah? Before the advent of Islam, the pagans worshipped 365 gods using 365 stone idols as symbols, the Muslims worship one Allah using that one stone as the symbol, but an idol nonetheless.
I’m wondering if you can give cites for these claims about Muslims and idol-worship–not because I doubt you, but because it’d be easier for me to understand the underlying theological issues if I can read them in the original.
Thanks!
Daniel
Certainly not to touch Allah. I can’t remember off the top of my head as to the real reason, but I do have a detailled commentry at home as to the rites and rituals of Hajj. Touching the Black Stone =/= touching Allah.
Here is a brief outline of what one is required to do when performing Hajj. Touching/kissing the Black Stone is not included, as you will note if you scroll to the bottom.
No, the Black Stone does not represent Allah. The Black Stone is not even supposed to be considered holy. If anything, its used as a marker to count the number of revolutions you’ve made around the Kaaba.
No we don’t. Muslims do not regard the Black Stone as a symbol of God. Hence Muslims don’t pray to it.
[QUOTE=Angua]
Certainly not to touch Allah. I can’t remember off the top of my head as to the real reason, but I do have a detailled commentry at home as to the rites and rituals of Hajj. Touching the Black Stone =/= touching Allah.
Here is a brief outline of what one is required to do when performing Hajj. Touching/kissing the Black Stone is not included, as you will note if you scroll to the bottom.
If the stone is not of relevance why have it there. Why is it kept in a silver collar? Why not throw it out?
No, the Black Stone does not represent Allah. The Black Stone is not even supposed to be considered holy. If anything, its used as a marker to count the number of revolutions you’ve made around the Kaaba.
The Black stone does predates Islam and as I said earlier, it was in the Kaaba symbolizing Allah, as were the other 364 idols. Allah existed before Islam, and was considered to be the most powerful of all gods. Muhammed made the people stop worship the other gods except Allah and therefore removed all the idols from the Kaaba except that which symbolized Allah. You have been misinformed if you believe otherwise. Please read the autobiography of Muhammed by Ibn Ishaq, in recension by Ibn Hashim. That is the oldest and most original text on the life of Muhammed.
The cites are not many - Koran, The autobiography of Muhammed, The Hadiths and Sunnahs of Muhammed.
That should give you a pretty good insight of what Islam is all about.
The stone does have special significance, yes, but it most certainly does not represent Allah, and as to why not just throw it out - its part of the structure of the Kaaba!
What’s to say that I haven’t read it?
As I’ve said before, the Black Stone’s actually an integral part of the structure of the Kaaba, placed there by Ibrahim, when he built the Kaaba. That’s why it hasn’t been got rid of. It does not represent Allah.
[QUOTE=wisernow]
Read here about the stone.
We could play this cite/counter cite game all freaking day, and for every cite you find, I’ll be able to find one refuting you. But what has a technology website got to do with this discussion?
Sorry about that link…read about the black stone here
Where does it say that this is a “technology” site? Whatever generates that impression? I have brought this question up in the “debates” section, since it does deserve that. Just like other religions, there are unclear issues with Islam too and they need to be talked about. And if there is no single source to confirm an issue, how does it become a part of a religion?
OK, can I point out that Wikipedia is a community authored website. Just because it says something, doesn’t mean its gospel.
As a Muslim, who has studied her religion in depth, I can tell you that we do not idolise the Black Stone.
Well, your first link took me to www.option/ - wireless technology. You’re mis-interpreting me - I was referring to your first ‘cite’
Well if you have studied your religion in depth, please answer the following questions:
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You say the Black Stone was put there by Abraham. Why did Abraham choose to put a particular stone at a particular place?
Maybe you will tell me that it was because it was given to Adam.
In that case next question - By whom was it given to Adam?
If it was given to Adam by Allah, then it automatically becomes sacred and holy! -
Do you agree that this stone was one of the many idols in the Kaaba in the pre Islamic period?
Yes/No
If you answered “no” to (2), you need to be educated. If you answered “yes” carry on.
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What was it doing in there with all the other idols? What was the significance of the Kaaba in the pre-Islamic period?
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Do you agree that the concept of Allah existed even before Muhammed?
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When all the other idols were removed, why was this one spared by Muhammed if it has no significance to Islam?
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Kaaba is considered the “House of Allah”. What does it house other than the stone?
Feel free to check out the encyclopedia Britannica here…subscription required though.
What’s your religion, wisernow? I’ll bet I can find pagan influences in it, too.
The black stone is not an idol and is not an object of worship. Traditionally the stone is said to have been a gift to Abraham from God and that Abraham used it as the cornerstone for his temple. It is now used simply as a marker for pilgrims to start their perambulations around the kaaba. There is no requirement to kiss the stone. It is most often simply waved at as an indication the pilgrim has recognized its location. Muslim’s make it very clear that the stone is not to be worshipped and that it is not even holy.
Muslims believe that while the Kaaba was originally a monotheistic shrine built by Abraham, during the time of Mohammed it had become a temple of polytheistic worship with many idols. Mohammad cleared the temple and restored it as a shrine for Allah. The stone was left because it was original to the temple and was associated with Abraham. Mohammed did not call the stone Allah, nor has any other Muslim. However the stone was regarded by pre-Islamic polytheists is not relevant to how it is regarded by Muslims.
It’s interesting that the OP cited the Koran as a source for his assertions because the stone is not even mentioned in the Koran.
Muslims worship God. Period. Trying to twist the Kaaba stone into an idol is no more legitimate than claiming that Christians worship crosses.
Muslims do not worship the Kaaba stone. They don’t pray to it. They don’t recognize any divinity in it. They think it’s just a rock.
Damn straight the “cites are not many”. The Black Stone isn’t in the Qu’ran and there’s no such thing as an autobiography of Muhammed, and the “Sunnahs” are not a separate entity but refer to the entire body of tradition, including Qu’ran and hadith.
If you have a hadith saying “the Black Rock = Allah” or something similar, please provide it. Otherwise, this is about as focussed and intelligent a criticism of Islamic theology as Jack Chick’s Moon God rant.
To the contrary multiple hadith report that Umar ( the second Rashidun Caliph ) said it was nothing more than a stone:
*Bukhari, Muslim and Abu Daw’ud reported that 'Umar approached the Black Stone and kissed it. Then he said: “I know that you are a mere stone that can neither harm nor do any good. If I had not seen the Prophet (peace be upon him) kissing you, I would have never kissed you.” *
Accounts I have seen follow Diogenes post - Muhammed destroyed all of the idols around the Ka’bah, leaving only the Ka’bah itself, which was considered to pre-date the presumed backslide towards polytheism.
Of course you could take the cynical view and speculate that Muhammed purposely left the Ka’bah intact as a identifiable touchstone to the polytheistic past, to better allow for a compromise with/rapproachment with the many tribes that had paid reverence to the shrine, to make easier the mental adjustment in transitioning to the new faith he had decreed. It’s possible. But that’s obviously not the Muslim perspective.
Now there have been many disputes in Islam over what is and what is not idolatrous - whether it be images ( sometimes condemned wholesale, other times argued that is only worship of images that is prohibited ), Shi’a veneration of Imams, Sufi veneration of saints, etc… But the Ka’bah has rarely ( I won’t say never, though I can’t think of any offhand ) been a part of such arguments. That the Wahabi, who are about as ferociously anti-idolatry as you can get in Islam, have no problem with it, goes pretty far in establishing it isn’t widely considered a idol in the sense of directly deserving worship.
- Tamerlane
Interesting hadith there, Tamerlane. Have you got a full reference? I might want to use that one.
Wisernow, are you satisfied that the Black Stone is not an idol of Allah?
Well, here is it is for Bukhari ( it’s Volume 2, Book 26, Number 667 ) :
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/026.sbt.html
- Tamerlane