For Aldebaran. Is Islam truly a Religion of Peace?

Back Story: This post originally appeared as a response to Futile Gesture in this thread in the BBQ Pit. Aldebaran took issue with it but refused to explain precisely what was wrong with it until I took it to GD. I’ve toned down the rhetoric appropriately but other than that it is the same.

I must note that I am not an Islamic Scholar. I’ve read the Koran, a couple of introductions to Islam and have an active interest in Middle Eastern history and that’s about it.

Yeah, but Islam cannot, in my opinion, be truly said to be a religion of peace. No religion can take that label. Religions are programs of indoctrination designed to control the sheep-like masses by allowing them to quell their fear of death with irrational hopes of eternal paradise. Islam and Christianity preach the doctrine of eternal damnation for earthly sins and are therefore, at their most fundamental core, not peaceful religions.

Anyway, back to the Koran. Take the first verse of The Opening

And verse 37 in The Cow

And contrast these sentiments with Allah’s actions:

Verse 9 and 10 of The Cow

In other words, it is futile to warn disbelievers, Allah has blinded them, sealing their fate. This, to me, represents a serious contradiction with verse 1 of ‘The Opening’
Here is another example. Book 4, women, verse 56

Book seven, The Heights, verse 50

These words also present a fundamental contradiction in the nature of Allah as outlined in verse 1 of ‘The Opening’ and verse 9 & 10 of ‘The Cow’

There are many more examples of Allah acting in a manner which a great many people would deem intolerant. For the sake of brevity I’ll leave it at that but I will produce more examples on request.

However, an apologist could explain that away by arguing that the actions of Allah towards unbelievers serve some greater utilitarian good by clearly and unambiguously stating that the path to salvation is through Allah and only through Allah.

That doesn’t, however, explain Allah’s attitude towards homosexuals which is also at variance with what modern people would deem benevolent.

From book 27, The Ant.

Male homosexuals commit “abominations” and act “senselessly” and, when they refuse to compromise themselves they are subjected to a “Dreadful rain”.

Homosexuality isn’t a choice. Gay men who commmit homosexual acts are satisfying desires they can’t help feeling. Hence, gay men are built to commit acts which Allah would deem abominable. Hence, gay men are abominable by nature, in the eyes of Allah. QED.

Any deity which claims to be benevolent and merciful, yet arbitrarily chooses to put 4% of the human population on the fast track to hell cannot, in my opinion, be called benevolent.

Now on to the matters that concerns all of us most here today. Does the Koran sanction violence if the violence can be argued to perpetuate the will of Allah? Does Islam encourage violent jihad? That would surely pose a serious problem for all those who believe, in spite of all the textual evidence to the contrary (and let us not forget that Muslims believe that the Koran is the precise word of Allah, dictated to Mohammed by the angel Gabriel), that Islam is a Religion of Peace.

The bad news for those people is that, yes, the Koran does sanction violent jihad and religious war.

Of course, the Koran advocates violence only defence of Islam. However, in the eyes of many Muslims (such as a statistically significant proportion of those in Palestine), the infidels are at the gates. Given their belief that they are in a state of war, the Koran provides moral justification for their actions.

Take, for example, verse 12 of book 8, ‘The Spoils of War’

Or from book 5, the Table, verse 33.

And, perhaps most telling,

Of course, verse 38 is a pretty hefty qualifier for verse 39 and sounds very reasonable, but what if the “persecutors” are not persecuting but are instead fighting for their very right to exist, as Israel are? In that instance, verse 38 allows jihadists to attack knowing that the “persecutors” will not cease their “persecution”. Verse 38 is an ingenious moral sanction for violent jihad.

There are, in total, nearly 100 verses in the Koran which follow these same lines. I trust that what I’ve quoted thus far is sufficient, however.

Now, lest anyone misinterpret me, let me clearly point out what I’m not saying.

I’m not saying Muslims are violent by nature.

I’m not saying that Islam is somehow inferior to Christianity. I feel that all organised religions are equally worthless.

Most importantly, I’m not saying that Muslims cannot use the positive tenets of the Koran (and there are a reasonable amount of them) as a guide to live a virtuous life.

Having said that, however, I do feel that in order to use the Koran to live a virtuous life, one needs to blank out quite a lot of the bad stuff, and there is a lot of intolerance in the Koran.

My final question to you is, how much of Islam’s most central, most sacred text, can a Muslim afford to ignore and still call himself a Muslim? It’s a tricky one and one that’s open to interpretation. One thing is for sure, however, if we take an open and unbiased look at the Koran from start to finish, there is enough bigotry, brutality and intolerance in its pages to rigorously contest the notion that Islam is, fundamentally, a Religion of Peace.

Thank you for bringing it here. I shall come back for answering tomorrow. (It is almost 3 in the morning overhere.)

Salaam.A

You have a pretty narrow-minded view of religion O_o

I don’t really think so. I’m very cynical but you can’t get as cynical as I am without studying the object of your ire with a very open mind. Still, if you think I’m narrow minded, enlighten me. That’s what we’re all here for after all :slight_smile:

Of course it’s narrow-minded. You’ve made a massive blanket statement of opinion, and served it as fact:

*That’s * your basis of argument in Great Debates? An opinion-laden statement of judgment? You have great potential for discussion here - why ruin it with extraneous opinion? Boil it down, and get to the essentials.

Okay, how about a compromise? If you all will ignore the bit about religions being control mechanisms designed to trap the easily led into a lifetime of servitude, I will knock up another GD thread with that as the main premise and present my reasons for believing it. I do stand by that assessment of organised religion (it is not one I’ve reached lightly) but, like you, I don’t want it to lead this thread off track. Deal?

When come back, bring Baha’i.

Well, for one, your basic definition of the word “religion” is wildly biased and based in your own perverted view of religion.

Here you make this a blanket statement that applies to ALL religion without exception, which is just stupid.

So are schools and ideologies. In any case, summing up religion to “indoctrination” is rather false. Many religions have little to do with indoctrination of anyone. I take it that your opinion is that all religious people are evangelicals who are out to convert you.

Cite for every religion being designed to control people?

Bad way to start off a debate, by saying that everyone who disagrees with you is a sheep who blindly follows. Believe it or not, most religious people have a mind of their own, and following religion is something that they have felt evidence and have a reason for. Many are quite independent individualists. If you think that in order to be an individualist, you have to have a set of beliefs, you are an idiot.

You haven’t been studying theology very long if you think all religion is based on a fear of death. Many religions don’t say diddly squat about death.

See above. Many religions don’t say a WORD about “eternal paradise,” nor do they make promises about it.

So, you are wrong about every 4 or 5 words, on average. Your definition of religion is off on every single count. Rather than entering into a balanced debate on the theology of Islam, you come into the discussion blazing away that all religion fits into your rather insipid rhetoric. You could at least make some kind of effort to discuss the issues you bring up seriously instead of blatantly displaying your bias.

Zagadka

Duly noted but…ahem

Create as many threads as you want O_o

That’s the plan. Can we all get around to discussing the Koran now, please? From the posts in this thread so far one could be forgiven for thinking y’all stopped reading after the 10th line of my OP.

Oh, and what is O_o all about?

O_o, very good.

I think it is similar to :dubious:

ooooooh, that is good! G

griffen the 2nd:

You’re wasting your time. Like the Hebrew Bible, the Koran is big, and its content didn’t all come from one place. Contradiction in religious scripture is de rigeur. That’s what allows people to evoke it to justify war. Or peace. Or whatever. It’s got it all, and since the faithful are selective in the way they assimiliate information in general, that is ten times doubly true when it comes to scripture. One guy will tell you it’s a faith of jihad. And he’ll be right. Another will tell you it’s a faith of peace and love. He’ll be right too. Since the scripture can’t be wrong (being God’s Holy Word verbatim), it’s always right, even when it’s internally inconsistent. No amount of logic will ever penetrate that reasoning. Why ask? You won’t prove anything, to yourself, or those who you debate with. You’ll make perfectly valid arguments, you’ll win the debate handily, and it won’t even be recognized. Have fun, man. My forehead has a few dents in it already, and the week is young. I keep telling myself to forget about it, but somehow I’m drawn back in again. I should follow my own advice, because clearly all empirical evidence points to the fact that debate with the faithful is an exercise in futility.

The key meme in Christianity and Islam is the following:

Believe this or face infinite and eternal punishment; convince all others to belive this, or they too will face infinite and eternal punishment.

By “key” I mean the most viral aspect, the hook, the thing that really keeps the system going. If you buy into this meme, you are then committed to converting the whole world. It’s dangerous stuff. The hook for Buddhism is similar but not quite so threatening: Become enlightened/follow the Noble Eightfold Path or you shall not evade the circle of life/death or achieve Nirvana. In contrast, Judaism and Hinduism (which was not a religion per se) were more epiphenomena of their cultures and not really evangelical/viral. Paganism was not really viral at all and extremely tolerant of the beliefs of different societies.

Isn’t this viral aspect of “religion” or “organized religion” what is the real problem? You simply are not going to find a society on the planet without spiritual views of some type combined with ritual–it’s like trying to find a society that doesn’t wear any type of clothing or ornamentation. An all-embracing critique of religion is ultimately a critique of human nature. Human nature is flawed, it is true, and if a belief in spirit or the afterlife is false, then I suppose human nature contains this contradiction, which may have to live with until evolution takes its course.

As for Islam itself, the less said the better. Wait a few thousand more years, and this virus too will be purged from the mind of man…

That was clear without explanation:)

Then you have done more then the average criticaster we encounter on message boards like this. You have shown interest in trying to inform yourself before going into critique mode.

You mix up religion and its adherents in their practice I’m afraid. But as mentioned by others, this is quite an other debate and should be better off with a separate thread.

I don’t see the logic of the connection you make between sin → damnation and thus → no peaceful religion. By the way: Both religions and I am sure a lot of others preach the way to avoid what you name “eternal damnation’.

Now to the subjects of your critiques.
I shall answer you using my education in Islam and Islamic history at both Arab and Western universities. This implies that I rely on sources coming from both Muslim and Western background. When it comes to give you exegeses (Arabic:Tafsîr) of Al Qur’an, I rely on the works of the most famous Muslim scholars in Islamic history.
Probably - and most certain if this becomes a longer discussion - I shall come across a discrepancy between authoritive sources and my own conclusion. I shall try to point that out to you. If I rely completely on my own interpretation, I shall also make that clear. I won’t give footnotes identifying a source if/when used in my explanation. Eventually I can list a bibliography if you want, but that is also a time-consuming work and from witch I doubt the usefulness in this context.
As for the translation you use: I won’t go into that. Only when I absolutely disagree I shall make and exception and give you my own.

Mostly named the “bismillah”, this sentence is the opening phrase of every sura except for sura IX.
The idea expressed in this formula is the subordination of all human activity to God.
Reciting it is the equivalent of : I begin to speak, to act, to recite, to read by (mentioning) the name of God to whom everything goes back to and without whom nothing can become accomplished.
I don’t think you asked to explain the role of this phrase in every day situations or to go into the theological debates about it. I also don’t think you asked for explaining the meaning of Al-Fatiha or its role in Islamic teachings, prayers, traditions and daily life.

[/quote]
And verse 37 in The Cow *37. Then Adam received from his Lord words (of revelation), and He relented toward him. Lo! He is the relenting, the Merciful. *
[/quote]

This handles about the words Adam received from got to make him able to express his repentance (for the First Sin leading to being sent out of the paradise). Some commentators give a description of these words while others say that they can be read in sura 7;22.

This is not sura II; 9 and 10 but II; 6 and 7.
The verb kafara (to cover, deny, hide, become impatient e.o.) is the root of the word (plu) kâfirûna which refers in Al Qur’an to disbelievers, polytheists, deniers of Islam or idolaters, depending the context.
In these two verses it refers to those who were opposed against the Prophet in Mecca = those who were his fiercest adversaries and showed the greatest hostility towards him and Islam. Like for example ‘Abu Jahl and ‘Abu Lahab.
These verses give the explanation for their actions while they are still doing them: They are not capable of changing their minds (although they were given every occasion to do so) and as such run with open eyes towards their condemnation.

I can understand your confusion about this since you failed to detect that there is not said that God shall not hear them when they repent = that God is not willing to lift the veil under which they seem to live.
It is recorded in the Traditions (Hadith) that a lot of these early enemies of Muhammed and Islam, who fought against them and killed Muslims, became Muslim themselves.

Sura IV is (as several others) a mix of Mecca and Medina revelations.
56 gives warning of being sent to what is usually called “hell”. The verse gives a metaphorical description of that situation (taking such descriptions in AQ as methaporical is what I agree with).
The addition “God is Mighty and Wise” implies in my opinion clearly that there is no doubt that God shall be just, correct and wise in his decisions.
I don’t see where you read that “God has blinded them, sealing their fate”.

Once again you quote a description of “hell”, this time put in contrast with those in paradise. Which is clearly - as all the others describing both situations - encouraging leading a good life and thus avoiding to end up in hell. (II, 9-10 refers to what is known in Islamic history as “the hypocrites” among the inhabitants of Medina = those who only in name become Muslim to further their own goals)

I don’t see why you take the examples you bring up as if it means that anyone could be condemned on forehand to end up at the wrong side. For the same money you can come up with examples that describe paradise and conclude that everyone is predestined to end up there.
There is indeed a lot said about the description of predestination in Al Qur’an and in Islamic teachings in general, and many Muslims do believe that “all is written”.
I am not an adherent of this theory at all.

That is an approach I never would have thought about myself. I think you need to explain how you come to such conclusion.

This can indeed lead to an interesting discussion. Especially because I have a rather unorthodox view on this matter and not only because I ploughed through quite a bit of classical poetry including the early Islam period.
Time fails me for now. I shall come back on this later today or tomorrow.

Salaam. A

I disagree.
Matthew 22:36-40
The Pharisee said, “Teacher, which command in the law is the most important?”
Jesus answered, “‘You must love the Lord your God. You must love him with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind.’ This is the first and most important command. And the second command is like the first: ‘You must love other people the same as you love yourself.’ All of the law and the writings of the prophets take their meaning from these two commands.”

Before I go on with this I am interested to know if the OP is still interested in his thread which he composed so quickly after my demand to bring the discussion to GD.

Writing the exegeses and other in depth explanations of the issues he brings up is not something I can do in a few minutes time in this language :slight_smile:
Salaam. A

Aldebaran

First of all, thanks for being so patient. You’ve told me a ton of stuff I was completely unaware of before and have prompted me to rethink my position. However, I still have trouble with several issues which I would appreciate your perspective on.

Damnation at the hands of Allah seems to be of the fire and brimstone variety. As I understand it, if you are damned by Allah you are subject to eternal torment, misery and pain. If the amount of times damnation is mentioned in the Koran is anything to go by, the concept of hell is one which is important to Islam. Any deity which consign unbelievers and sinners to such brutal punishment for all eternity has to be, at its heart, violent to some degree. Simply put, the fact that Allah threatens unbelievers and sinners with hell indicates that he has a violent streak.

To use a somewhat awkward analogy, imagine a man and his estranged father. The father is a billionaire and a philanthropist but the son has never actually seen him in the flesh. One day, the son receives a letter from the father promising him riches beyond his wildest dreams…if only the son can convert ten people to the father’s Elk Lodge and follow the lodge’s rules. The letter goes into wonderful detail about the bounty the father will bestow on the son if he manages to perform these tasks but a postscript tacked on to the end of the letter mentions that if the son fails he will be kidnapped and sold as a love slave to a Rwandan warlord.

Based on this information, is the father a peaceful man? A wholly good man?

Can the fathers chain of Elk Lodge’s (funded by the fathers illicit sideline) be a truly moral organisation?

Ah, I didn’t know that. That does put the verse in a new light. Would I be right in saying that the verse means Allah didn’t actually intercede to ‘cover’ the disbelievers but instead always knew that they would never repent?

That was my interpretation, too. My problem with this verse stems from my belief in the inherent unjustness of eternal damnation as a punishment for earthly sins. I understand that Allah cannot accept unrepentant sinners but is eternal torture the only way for such people to pay their debt? In Orthodox Judaism there is no punishment for unrepentant sinning or unbelief. You simply don’t get the rewards of heaven and are excluded from the presence of God. You die, turn to dust, and that’s it. I’m not Jewish but it seems to me that such a fate is more just than eternal damnation which, by definition, is a disproportionately harsh punishment for earthly sins.

That comment of mine only applied to my thoughts on sura II 6-7 and not on the verse from sura IV.

I don’t believe I actually made that point. The Koran is very clear on the point that everyone can convert or repent and be saved. My problem stems more from the fact that Allah’s treatment of those who choose to ignore him is disproportionate to the offence. The closest atheistic equivalent to condemning someone to eternal hell for earthly sins or disbelief would be putting someone to death for swearing at you or not returning your phone calls.

It’s a defence I’ve heard people use when defending Christianity. Basically the theory goes that if God didn’t punish people eternally for their sins then there would be less incentive for disbelievers to convert. Therefore the threat of eternal punishment serves to increase the number of disbelievers who convert and hence the number of souls saved is greater than it would have been otherwise. I worded it very poorly in my OP but that is what I was trying to say.

I’d love to hear about it.