Captain Midnight and hate speech

[hajario]

This isn’t meant to be a Pitting of Captain Midnight but complaints about moderation go here which makes this a little awkward. I am asking that no one argue about the claims in his posts or attacks him in any way. Please take those posts to the Pit. I want to discuss what it takes to violate our hate speech rule on the board.

Here is thread about WWII where he denies the scope of the Holocaust blaming the Jews for the whole thing anyway. I reported this but it was just a few minutes ago.

Here is pure anti-Semitic hate speech. I reported this one at the time. This post starts off by saying:

@Captain Midnight

I wish the Jews would go fuck themselves. So does he. So do millions of other people.

It continues with a bunch of racist slander.

Here is our hate speech rule.

@FAQ

You are free to express your views in a forceful manner provided you remain civil. Hate speech, insults, and purposely inflammatory remarks (i.e., trolling) will not be tolerated. Do not post threats or state or imply that any individual or group is deserving of harm. We recognize that this rule cannot be strictly applied in discussions of war, capital punishment and the like but urge users to express themselves in moderate terms nonetheless. If we tell you to refrain from behavior that we regard as uncivil, do so or face revocation of your posting privileges.

How are these quotes, and there are many other similar ones by him, not a violation, particularly where there is a history of such posts.

Again, let’s please take specific slams on CM, arguments against his claims and how you feel about the hate speech rule elsewhere. I want to discuss whether these posts violate the rule and would appreciate not having this thread hijacked.

[Larry_Borgia]

I raised this issue with Miller via PM. I’m hoping he won’t mind quoting his reply in public.

@Miller via PM

Hi, Larry. Thanks for raising your concern about hate speech on the SDMB. Gfactor and I have been discussing the situation, and here’s what we’ve decided.

Bigotry is a difficult subject for our message board. While no one likes seeing that sort of stuff posted, as moderators, we also don’t want to start censoring points of view just because we find them disagreeable. The SDMB is intended to be a place where one can discuss virtually any topic under the sun, with some very narrowly carved out exceptions, such as how to commit crimes, that could put the board itself in jeopardy. Being a bigot does not fall into one of those exceptions: nobody’s going to sue the board because Captain Midnight posts here.

On top of that, CM has kept his most objectionable posts in the Pit, where the standards of civility are greatly relaxed. While in any other forum, those posts would almost certainly have drawn a warning for being inappropriate, it’s harder to justify bringing out the Mod Hammer for stuff he says in the forum that exists specifically to hold posts that offend other people.

How, then, does that reconcile with the rule against hate speech? Ed intentionally worded that rule very broadly, to allow the moderators a lot of leeway in how we apply it. Traditionally, Pit moderators have granted the Teeming Millions a lot of latitude in how to apply this rule. In keeping with how the other major Pit rules such as “No wishing death on posters,” and “No sexual insults aimed at other posters,” our interpretation of the hate speech rule is that it covers insults specifically aimed at other posters on the board, but not at public figures or portions of society at large. It is, in effect, allowable to say, “I hate Jews,” but one cannot say, to another poster, “You’re a kike.” The principle at play, here, is not to squelch a particular viewpoint, while at the same time maintaining a very basic level of civility on the boards.

[Oakminster]

I read the rant post. Think it’s definitely pushing the hate speech envelope. Don’t know that it’s over the top enough for an insta-ban, but if a mod thought otherwise, I wouldn’t object. At the minimum, it deserves a warning…which I suspect will lead to the usual meltdown and ban within a week.

[hajario]

A ban isn’t appropriate without a warning. It’s tough for me to see how the Pit post in my OP isn’t a clear violation but I guess it’s debatable. The problem is that it’s not just in the Pit. It’s a pattern.

Here is a post in GD about Hollywood and Jews that he links to “Israeli atrocities.”

In the Pit but he talks about the secret cabal of Jews controlling the world.

In GD: Hitler is misunderstood and the Holocaust is exaggerated.

[C_K_Dexter_Haven]

The mods are discussing this behind the scenes, and anticipate action.

It’s very difficult to deal with “political opinions” that are odious, unfounded, and obviously racist at heart. Such notions as the Jews controlling Stalinist Russia, or blacks scoring lower on IQ tests, or whatever… One can argue that, deep down inside, these are indeed nothing but hate speech covered with window dressing. However, one can also argue that these are indeed opinions (however ridiculous) held by others. We the mods are reluctant to shut down a discussion just because one side is taking a despicable position. So, it’s usually a fine line between free speech issues and hate speech.

Thus, current mod debate.

[hajario]

Thank you very much.

[DrDeth]

@C_K_Dexter_Haven

The mods are discussing this behind the scenes, and anticipate action.

It’s very difficult to deal with “political opinions” that are odious, unfounded, and obviously racist at heart. Such notions as the Jews controlling Stalinist Russia, or blacks scoring lower on IQ tests, or whatever… One can argue that, deep down inside, these are indeed nothing but hate speech covered with window dressing. However, one can also argue that these are indeed opinions (however ridiculous) held by others. We the mods are reluctant to shut down a discussion just because one side is taking a despicable position. So, it’s usually a fine line between free speech issues and hate speech.

Thus, current mod debate.

I’d have to say that he has crossed the line, in the cases I saw. Assuming my opinion has any weight.

[NAF1138]

I can see an argument being made that he didn’t cross the line in some of those posts, but the second link in the OP is hate speech, no two ways about it.

[Argent_Towers]

I hope he is allowed to stay because I find him endlessly amusing. I loved the post where he talked about grabbing his wife’s “sweet yellow ass” while doing her doggy-style with baby oil.

[hajario]

@NAF1138

I can see an argument being made that he didn’t cross the line in some of those posts, but the second link in the OP is hate speech, no two ways about it.

Other than that one really bad post, the rest probably don’t cross the line on their own but taken as a pattern of posting they arguably do.

[Miller]

Larry, thanks for posting that PM. Saves me having to type it again. However, I did want to point out that the hate speech rule from the FAQ cited by hajario differs somewhat from the one posted in the Revised Forum Rules for the BBQ Pit sticky:

No hate speech

If you say hateful and/or racist things, you may get warned or banned. Some slurs are likely to be viewed as hate speech when used as insults, some aren’t. No, we aren’t going to give you a list. Our goal is not to restrict any and all speech which could be viewed by someone as offensive, but simply keep a modicum of decency, even here.

As you can see, this is a much less hard-and-fast rule than the one in the FAQ, and it’s what I’ve been using in deciding whether or not to moderate Captain Midnight’s posts.

[koeeoaddi]

Since the OP’s doesn’t want commentary on the posts themselves, I’ll only say that IMO the Pit post is clearly hate speech. Obvious, unambiguous, and standing proudly on the shoulders of generations of similarly hateful speech. Sure, there’s hate-ier speech, but not by much.

[hajario]

The other issue is that the posts are in lots of threads across various forums. They’re not exactly off topic but they are, in many cases, only marginally on topic.

A thread about Jews disproportionally as leaders in American media companies doesn’t need a screed about Israeli politics. A thread about a news commentator fired over his arguably anti-Semitic remarks doesn’t need a rant about how the Holocaust is exaggerated. I get that someone can have an unpopular opinion but posts like this seem shoe horned in and trollish, especially given the fact that they tend to be hit and runs and CM doesn’t seem to care about coming back and arguing his points and defending the incorrect parts that he presents as facts. These posts are full of factual claims that are incorrect.

If he actually argued his claims, especially in GD, instead of simply dropping a bomb and then never returning, it would be a different story.

[Guinastasia]

Well, there was the time he wanted to mail someone poop in a bag.

Or his comments on homosexuality

That was his response to being Pitted for this. You can’t tell me that’s not hate speech.

[Gfactor]

Upon review of the posts in this thread and discussion of the situation among the staff, we’ve decided to ban **Captain Midnight **for trolling. Because we don’t usually allow threads bashing the departed, and that’s what this one would likely become, I’m going to close it.

Gfactor
Administrator