"All rise!": Do courtroom procedures in the USA (and elsewhere?) tend to make the Judge...a King?

Great Debates
1

I frequently observe what I like to call “mundane criminal court”. Once or twice a month, I’m obliged – not legally, but I’ve been in the position (beat up a nun one time; stole two coconuts the other; totally joking. traffic violations) of those who are guilty unless you can bum a ride across the state. Crap, my bias is showing. Strike that. So I park on the street – since, you know, why would you provide parking for a courthouse? Crazy talk! Go find some random garage! Risk a tow! (Argh. Its too easy to get annoyed at court.). I actually had a really, REALLY long OP here, but I’m rewriting it here for the sake of everyones patience: bottom line, am I the only one who feels that – heck, even if its simple tradition, goes back to magna-carta-days, blah blah – am I the only one who wants to scream, “Bullshit!” when told to rise for his freakin’ majesty, the Judge? Oh, I understand the whole rationale any Judge (I’m not capitalizing to be snarky; force of habit, and also – isn’t that correct?) will tell you: its about maintaining the decorum of the Court, and the Court is the physical representative of the Law – and thats why we do it. I get it. I even kinda dig the whole formality of it, at times.

But, still: I honestly feel that this is the most egregious violation of our ideal of “equality”, because the Judge – and screw the “representative of the Law” crap, this is a man or woman, and no different from any other Citizen – the Judge really is King/Queen. And as anyone who’s ever witnessed courtrooms presided over by different Judges can tell ya, they apply the law differently…but perhaps thats best left for another day.

Let’s keep it simple: I’ve sat through several thousand minor criminal/motor vehicle/etcetera cases. I’ve probably observed the judicial style of…I dunno, 30 different judges? Something like that. Why should I be forced to stand or face jail? Why can’t I discretely read a book or use my cell (this in a courtroom where cellular phones are allowed, and widely used by the “cool people”, the lawyers, those who have an in. Me? Its strictly up to the bailiffs. If they know me, I’m allowed to use my smartphone to write up what I’ve gotta do. If not? I get what everyone else gets, which is a quiet-but-stern “TURN IT OFF!” signal. Sure, I don’t poop where I eat, and I’m friendly with most of the bailiffs (nah, thats not really their title, but I prefer it to whatever they’re officially called – and it makes me think of Night Court). Basically…is it just me, or, uh, are Judges treated (and not out of true respect, but out of threat of incarceration, or perceived threat thereof – I’ve never seen anyone actually called out on Contempt of Court, and I’ve seen a handful of people who truly deserved it…in that they were obviously and blatantly holding the Court, well, in Contempt, and also disrupting the smooth proceedings thereof. Yeah, theres my fake lawyer-speak, but anyone who sits in court fancies themselves an unofficial lawyer :slight_smile:

So, to keep it simple: isn’t “All rise!” at least arguably un-American, in the sense that we’re being forced to pay homage to an individual? And thus, that we’re being forced to elevate that individual (the Judge) above everyone else in the room? I understand the legal argument behind this – I’m curious what people who’ve been in Court feel about it – because I can’t help but feel like there’s something wrong, here. Yes, its a silly thing to waste an hour writing and rewriting (yeah) a GD question on…yes, its not really hurting anyone. But, as the man says, its the principle of the thing.

Amiright?

Postscript: Curious how the procedure goes in countries outside the USA (I hope I mentioned that above – if not, apologies for my US-centrism – when you’re (crap, I hope this was obvious: I’m not the one on trial, in these situations, I’m simply an OBSERVER, and technically any member of the public may observe as I do) in a courtroom, do you feel that the Judge is elevated above mere Citizens? Particularly in those nation-states that do have a nobility/royalty – do you feel that Judges are elevated to that level?

Anyway, any input is happily received. I’m tired, so I hope I made this semi-readable – and sorry about all the ellipses, again :wink:

2

Ugh, rereading my OP, I can’t believe how much personal bias I tossed in there – complaining about the parking situation? I apologize. Hopefully, there’s a nugget of debate that is salvageable here, and its simply…whether I’m the only one who feels that Judges are essentially granted power that flies in the face of supposed American equality (and, in a spirit of multi-nationalism, how this plays out / is perceived in other countries).

Seriously, that was a lame way for me to put the OP. Sorry.

3

Showing respect to the court by standing up isn’t a “power.” Do you feel the same way about the court (judge included) rising when a jury walks in the room?

4

Everybody stands when the President walks in the room, and he can’t cite you for contempt.

Everybody stands when the Bride starts walking down the aisle, isn’t she being all high and mighty, like its all about her.

Of course, the judge is elevated above everybody in the courtroom, its kinda of in the title. Outside of the courtroom, he can stand in line at the sandwich shop like everybody else.

5

Yeah, and if this was the Judge’s personal role-playing group, I wouldn’t mind. The fact is, people are required by law to be here. I understand the need for an absolute head in the courtroom – and it may have been my fault for not making it clear. My beefs are with, well, honestly? Just the rising part. This is me speaking from the ID, you know? Say what you will, but if I refused to rise for the Judge, the following would happen:
-a bailiff would go, “Hey, rise for the Judge!”
-I’d say, “I respectfully refuse.”
-Bailiff would say, "What are you, a comedian? Rise, or – "
…and there it ends, because I’m not sure. Obviously, nobody does it. People do what dudes and dudettes in uniforms say. But I’m pretty sure I’d be thrown out of the courtroom. And basically, everyone would say, “Who was that jackass?” – and I’d be mortally embarassed, and probably get fired. I actually don’t believe I’d be charged with Contempt.

So again, this is purely a hypothetical, ID kinda thing – obviously, I’m not expecting to change the system. Its not really a big deal. But I do feel like its a little too much pomp, and its done under threat. If you’ve been to court, you’ve seen the slackers, the angry thugs, and so on do it reluctantly – you think these dudes tend to listen to people who tell them to stand at attention? No, they do it because they’re afraid that they’ll get arrested – again, since they’re usually there for a criminal case – and it amounts to, well, getting arrested for not saluting…when you’re not in the military. Just me? Feels its a little anti-egalitarian?

Hey, if its just me, and theres no debate, I’ll accept that. There’s more to this, but I’m trying to start with the most basic angle, here (to be fair, here’s the more: two judges, same case, same facts, two different outcomes. Ugh, thats too big a thang. Let’s keep it to whether forcing people to rise for a judge is reasonable, for now, I guess.

6

Another PS: I don’t know if we have any Judges here, but I would love to hear their opinion. I feel like a scofflaw for bringing this up – if I didn’t make it clear, I feel like I’m in the odd position of both enjoying/participating in courtroom procedure…and occasionally being struck by pangs of, well, something. I certainly don’t mean to be dumping on jurists here, or what they do – this is purely about decorum. Heck, if I’d not been a slacker and went to law school…well, let’s just say that I admire a fine Judge, and I know one when I see one. I suspect, also, that there’s at least one American Judge who feels exactly as I do – isn’t there a sort of faux-group-memory (probably from a movie) of a Judge who yells “Siddown, siddown!” when the bailiff has everyone rise? (Hmm. If I ever make it to the bench, and I assure you, I won’t…that’s gonna be my gimmick. That, and using a giant novelty gavel :D)

7

Ah… there you go. “too much pomp, and its done under threat”

That is what is pushing your buttons.

Perhaps you should go back to the source and reconsider.

8

I’ve never been present at a jury trial, nor (bizarrely) had jury duty. And I’d love to be a juror! Its a conspiracy, consarnit – those who get the letters always want out of it, and the rest of us want in! :smiley:

9

Judges used to be kings, and kings judges, right? In any case, I think the procedures show respect more for the law than for the individual person. As a society we have gotten terribly blase and informal about everything, which is mostly good, but it is nice to preserve the solemnity of a place where people’s lives and freedom are on the line.

10

+1…and I think you’re being generous.

For my own part, I still have enormous respect, even reverence, for the law itself, and the American system.

I have almost none at all for the people charged with administering it. My experience has been so incredibly shocking and depressing it’s left me with a “show me” attitude. That said, I don’t have any issue with the rising. But there have certainly been moments when saying “your honor” has left me gagging.

11

I’m a lawyer, and I think it’s pompous. However, a courtroom is typically home to a lot of very argumentative people with poor social skills and sometimes violent tendencies, as well as their clients. It’s a high-stress environment that at times could easily descend into pandemonium without someone in charge. Having everyone rise for the judge may be a blunt way of reinforcing that this person runs the proceeding, and no matter how heated it gets, you listen to this person and stop talking when he or she says to.

12

[sits crosslegged on floor]

Tell us some stories!

13

:stuck_out_tongue:

14

As someone who has had mobility issues, I can tell you that rising in the courtroom is not always mandatory, and failure to rise is not always noticed. It depends on the judge, the bailiffs, the local/state/county laws, and the ADA. If it is noticed, you may be asked for an explanation by whomever in authority notices, which you may or may not be legally required to provide. I can’t imagine being held in contempt of court for failure to rise, but I’m also aware that judges are real people, and some real people are jerks. I have been to court several times, and have never risen, nor been required to explain my failure to rise. An acquaintance of mine with mobility issues was requested to explain his failure to rise, and did. Another acquaintance successfully argued religious-based moral objection to rising. Anecdata, I know, but disability and religious precendent is a good place to start looking for answers.

15

Are you overweight? ADD much?

16

You’ve said twice that you understand that it’s about maintaining decorum in the courtroom, but you seem to be looking for a deeper answer than that. There really isn’t one - it’s simply about maintaining decorum in the courtroom. My dad practices in the courtroom of his former law partner all the time, and in court they call each other “counselor” and “your honor,” while outside they call each other by their first names just as they always have. Courtroom protocol and ettiquette are exactly that - protocol and ettiquette.

17

This is it – we are showing respect/honor for the position of judge, not the person currently filling that role.

18

The judge that heard the trial on which I was a jury member had everyone stay seated for his entrance, though he did have them rise for the jury’s entrance as mentioned in MOIDALIZE’s post. On the first day of trial, much of the room stood when he entered (not knowing the protocol), and he did kind of do the whole “sit down, sit down!” thing. (He did a few other interesting things apparently not common in Indiana courtrooms, such as allowing jurors to submit written questions after each witness, and even including information on jury nullification in our packets when we went to deliberation.)

Your question makes it sound as if the court system itself, or the court bailiff has control of such procedures, but it seemed to me that the judge (in this situation, at least) is the one who decides what protocol will be. I imagine it differs elsewhere.

19

Some judges have the bailiff announce “remain seated”. I rise anyway to remind the judge that he/she is a judge and has duties.

20

“So, Wayne… you left home at a young age, turning your back on your family and friends to pursue a life of petty crime. Drugs, robberies, in and out of prison… and now, two people are dead and you’re sitting on Death Row. Looking back on it all, would you say you’ve learned any lessons?”

“Yeah… that judge was an asshole!”