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  #1  
Old 05-18-2011, 01:07 PM
Dingbang Dingbang is offline
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Buying on Amazon.com voids warranty???

Is there any reason that a manufacturer would consider purchasing through Amazon.com a less-than-legitimate method and void the warranty?

I bought a pond light through Amazon in November 2010 and in February 2011 it stopped working. I had been quite satisfied with it up until then and thought it was a good value. I contacted Danner Manufacturing and they said I should send it to them for repair or replacement, with the receipt. I did that and within a couple of weeks they sent me a new one. Nice customer service, right? I was impressed until I read the packing slip that accompanied the replacement.

It included a snarky note explaining that the company's products are not covered by warranty when purchased through Amazon, Ebay, flea markets or other "non accredited vendors." The product was being replaced as a "one time courtesy only." Another note at the bottom told me that I should use an accredited vendor the next time I buy a Danner Mfg. product. All highlighted in yellow.

Isn't Amazon just like buying the product from any other legitimate retailer? I bought it as a new item through Amazon, not a used item.

(The new light stopped working after another month. Since Danner made clear that they won't honor the warranty, I had no recourse other than posting this info in a review on Amazon.)
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  #2  
Old 05-18-2011, 01:22 PM
Darth Panda Darth Panda is offline
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2-316. Exclusion or Modification of Warranties.
(1) Words or conduct relevant to the creation of an express warranty and words or conduct tending to negate or limit warranty shall be construed wherever reasonable as consistent with each other; but subject to the provisions of this Article on parol or extrinsic evidence (Section 2-202) negation or limitation is inoperative to the extent that such construction is unreasonable.
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  #3  
Old 05-18-2011, 01:25 PM
Telemark Telemark is online now
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Originally Posted by Dingbang View Post
Isn't Amazon just like buying the product from any other legitimate retailer? I bought it as a new item through Amazon, not a used item.
Just because Amazon is big it doesn't make them an authorized retailer. If they're not authorized, they're not. The manufacturer doesn't feel that they have control over the delivery and quality, or they want to protect their bricks and mortar retailers who provide service.
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Old 05-18-2011, 01:36 PM
Dingbang Dingbang is offline
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Telemark, I guess I understand your point, but how would one know it's not an authorized retailer? I assume Amazon gets the product from the manufacturer, so how is that different from Target or Wal-mart getting it from the manufacturer and then selling it to me?
If I walk into Target and buy something, I'd be pretty surprised to find out that later that it is not an "authorized retailer" and so the manufacturer won't honor the warranty. Seems like the same thing with Amazon, or am I missing something?

Darth Panda, thanks but I can't understand that snippet at all. What does it say in English and how does that apply?
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Old 05-18-2011, 01:44 PM
Darth Panda Darth Panda is offline
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Originally Posted by Dingbang View Post
Darth Panda, thanks but I can't understand that snippet at all. What does it say in English and how does that apply?
Basically, it means that if the warranty is written such that it cleraly allows the warranty to be voided if Amazon is the vendor, then so be it - but if that reading is is applied after the fact (extrinsic / parol) or if the warranty is written in a way that wouldn't suggest they could void the warranty if bought through Amazon (the unreasonable reading part), then it's no go for them.

I haven't read there warranty and note that the UCC is not adopted unformly (hah!) across the states - but given the state of amazon as a vendor, it seems unlikely to me that they've carved out the warranty in such a way as to allow this. It's not legal advise, it's just an educated guess. There's no way to tell without reading the warranty, reading the version of the UCC in the state and in the states where it was manufactured and sold, and applying conflict of laws to see which version controls, and then reading case law - and even then it's still a guess. But my gut says it's unlikely to be allowed.
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Old 05-18-2011, 02:01 PM
ZipperJJ ZipperJJ is online now
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Originally Posted by Dingbang View Post
Telemark, I guess I understand your point, but how would one know it's not an authorized retailer? I assume Amazon gets the product from the manufacturer, so how is that different from Target or Wal-mart getting it from the manufacturer and then selling it to me?
If I walk into Target and buy something, I'd be pretty surprised to find out that later that it is not an "authorized retailer" and so the manufacturer won't honor the warranty. Seems like the same thing with Amazon, or am I missing something?

Darth Panda, thanks but I can't understand that snippet at all. What does it say in English and how does that apply?
Was Amazon the seller, or just the interface? I don't know what light you bought but for instance this pond light says "Ships from and sold by Waterfall and Fountain Emporium. " which is how MANY products are sold on Amazon now. You hardly notice it anymore.

I wonder if that product is not sold by the manufacturer to Amazon itself, but to a seller that sells on Amazon and that is why the manufacturer won't deal with it. They have no idea who sold it to you.
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Old 05-18-2011, 02:19 PM
Dingbang Dingbang is offline
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The product page says "ships from and sold by Amazon.com." That's why I find it all so surprising and odd. If it said "sold by Eddie's Shady Discount Barn" I'd at least understand their position a little better.

I looked for a way to report this to Amazon, but couldn't find one. It seems they should care because it makes me leery of buying certain things there if the manufacturer can just decide not to honor the warranty.

Thanks, Darth Panda. Not surprised that the company if probably on shaky legal footing with this position, but of course it's not worth me fighting them over it. Just won't ever buy their products again.
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Old 05-18-2011, 03:10 PM
Ruminator Ruminator is offline
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Originally Posted by Dingbang View Post
The product page says "ships from and sold by Amazon.com." That's why I find it all so surprising and odd. If it said "sold by Eddie's Shady Discount Barn" I'd at least understand their position a little better.
I do most of my shopping with amazon.com and you simply have to approach it with the understanding that some items they sell (even the ones that are "ship sold amazon.com") may not include the manufacturer's warranty.

For example, amazon.com is an authorized dealer for Canon cameras and lenses. But they are not for Cartier watches.

How does one even detect such a difference? Well, I guess this is where a little 6th sense about money matters comes into play: "if a deal is too good to be true, it probably is." So, getting back to the Cartier watch example... I see that amazon sells it for 30% less than the official Cartier store at the mall... so "what's the catch?" ... the catch is that it doesn't come with same warranty!

Another example, I was looking at those expensive Tempurpedic mattresses for $4000. I found the same set at a web store for $3200. Wow, what I deal -- so what's the catch? Take a big guess.

Did you get a good discount from amazon.com when you bought your light? If you paid the same price to amazon as you would have at an authorized dealer, that's a unfortunate deal. However, that's not the normal situation with amazon discounts pricing.
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Old 05-18-2011, 04:40 PM
Dingbang Dingbang is offline
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I paid about the same price I think I would have paid at Home Depot or some other store. I just ordered it from Amazon for the same reason I order a lot of stuff there: convenience.

I'll chalk this up as a learning experience, but it's eye opening to learn that Amazon is considered some sort of questionable retailer by some manufacturers. I really thought of it as every bit legit as any mortar and brick store I can walk into. I wouldn't think twice about the warranty being valid at any store I go to, and I'm surprised that I have to think about Amazon that way.
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Old 05-18-2011, 05:52 PM
DrDeth DrDeth is offline
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Originally Posted by Dingbang View Post
I paid about the same price I think I would have paid at Home Depot or some other store. I just ordered it from Amazon for the same reason I order a lot of stuff there: convenience.

I'll chalk this up as a learning experience, but it's eye opening to learn that Amazon is considered some sort of questionable retailer by some manufacturers. I really thought of it as every bit legit as any mortar and brick store I can walk into. I wouldn't think twice about the warranty being valid at any store I go to, and I'm surprised that I have to think about Amazon that way.
It's not questionable, it's legit. But it's not "authorized" and some high end products arrange "authorized" retailers. Why on earth a pool light comapny would say anything, I dunno. Nothing to do with B&M.

So, "Mauricos Overpriced Name Brand Designer Watch Store" likely pays money to be a "authorized retailer" for say Cartier, and an equally reputable "Bobs Discount Jewelers" across the street in a B&M location may indeed have the exact same watch but not be "authorized". Same with an online store.
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  #11  
Old 05-18-2011, 05:55 PM
Boyo Jim Boyo Jim is offline
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I suggest you write Amazon, explain the situation, and explain that you will not be purchasing from them again unless you can have some assurance that the warranty will be honored.

The other thing that might get better results is to contact the media. Perhaps your local station has a consumer reporter. Or even better, a network news magazine that sometime does consumer stories. Honestly, I had never heard of this until now, and I'll bet that most people haven't either. If you can get TV network to start poking at Amazon about this, they might change the way they deal with product suppliers, or at least flag products the sale of which through them will void the warranty.
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Old 05-18-2011, 06:08 PM
DrDeth DrDeth is offline
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Originally Posted by Boyo Jim View Post
I suggest you write Amazon, explain the situation, and explain that you will not be purchasing from them again unless you can have some assurance that the warranty will be honored.

The other thing that might get better results is to contact the media. Perhaps your local station has a consumer reporter. Or even better, a network news magazine that sometime does consumer stories. Honestly, I had never heard of this until now, and I'll bet that most people haven't either. If you can get TV network to start poking at Amazon about this, they might change the way they deal with product suppliers, or at least flag products the sale of which through them will void the warranty.
The warranty was honored. I don't think there's anything to get riled up or concerned about.

Snarky notes are meaningless. Let them try invalidating their warranty and then there might be an issue.
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Old 05-18-2011, 06:29 PM
Boyo Jim Boyo Jim is offline
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Originally Posted by DrDeth View Post
The warranty was honored. I don't think there's anything to get riled up or concerned about.

Snarky notes are meaningless. Let them try invalidating their warranty and then there might be an issue.
The manufacturer decided to honor it, but they weren't required to.

I don't think the manufacturer is the problem. Amazon is, if they sell products that they are not authorized to by the manufacturer, thus voiding a warranty, and they don't warn their customers about it.

I do think a letter to Amazon is unlikely to change anything, but it is important to create a record of your complaints with a vendor. And you might have found that Amazon would be willing to refund your money, or replace the product, had the manufacturer decided not to replace the product. And while the manufacturer did good, they also basically told you they wouldn't to it again.

Last edited by Boyo Jim; 05-18-2011 at 06:30 PM..
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Old 05-18-2011, 06:31 PM
drachillix drachillix is offline
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Originally Posted by Boyo Jim View Post
I suggest you write Amazon, explain the situation, and explain that you will not be purchasing from them again unless you can have some assurance that the warranty will be honored.
Amazon will often be powerless to do so. Many products are only sold through specific distributors and such, often those distributors pay for the privelege of being the "only authorized vendor in California".

If you are not going through the "authorized vendors" somebody along the line probably breached a contract or distributor agreement. Also it avoids things like if a shipment is stolen or batch of defective products was supposedly destroyed, and turns up on ebay, they may not be able to prove those items were part of a stolen/defective batch but they can make you prove you got it through their normal channels to make sure they are not providing warranty replacements for stolen merchandise.
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Old 05-18-2011, 06:35 PM
Boyo Jim Boyo Jim is offline
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Originally Posted by drachillix View Post
Amazon will often be powerless to do so. Many products are only sold through specific distributors and such, often those distributors pay for the privelege of being the "only authorized vendor in California".

If you are not going through the "authorized vendors" somebody along the line probably breached a contract or distributor agreement. Also it avoids things like if a shipment is stolen or batch of defective products was supposedly destroyed, and turns up on ebay, they may not be able to prove those items were part of a stolen/defective batch but they can make you prove you got it through their normal channels to make sure they are not providing warranty replacements for stolen merchandise.
It would also be acceptable if Amazon would somehow flag products which won't be supported by the normal warranty. Or not sell those products. For the longer term. they could start to negotiate with their suppliers so more of their products will be covered by warranty.
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  #16  
Old 05-18-2011, 06:53 PM
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Amazon Customer Service is typically very good. If you wrote them and explained the situation, it's very likely that they'll refund or replace your light themselves.

(At least based on my experience over the last decade or so. I've never been dissatisfied with their service and I've bought and returned a lot of things from 'em...)

Last edited by Reply; 05-18-2011 at 06:54 PM..
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Old 05-18-2011, 08:02 PM
Dingbang Dingbang is offline
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The warranty was honored. I don't think there's anything to get riled up or concerned about.

Snarky notes are meaningless. Let them try invalidating their warranty and then there might be an issue.
No, they didn't really honor the warranty. They replaced the light once, then said that they would not help me again. And about a month later the new light stopped working too. If they were honoring the warranty, I could have sent it back a second time, but they made it clear they didn't want to hear from me again. So that's not really honoring the warranty. Bottom line, I paid around $30 for a product with a warranty and I'm left with no working product and a manufacturer that tells me to fuck off.
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Old 05-18-2011, 08:12 PM
Telemark Telemark is online now
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Originally Posted by Dingbang View Post
Bottom line, I paid around $30 for a product with a warranty and I'm left with no working product and a manufacturer that tells me to fuck off.
No, they didn't tell you to fuck off. They explained their warranty. You may not like what they said, but according to their warranty you never had any agreement with them. And, they gave you a free lamp (which, granted, broke) that they were not obliged to do.

Your beef should be with the retailer, be it Amazon or the seller behind them.
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Old 05-18-2011, 08:17 PM
jtgain jtgain is offline
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Originally Posted by Dingbang View Post
No, they didn't really honor the warranty. They replaced the light once, then said that they would not help me again. And about a month later the new light stopped working too. If they were honoring the warranty, I could have sent it back a second time, but they made it clear they didn't want to hear from me again. So that's not really honoring the warranty. Bottom line, I paid around $30 for a product with a warranty and I'm left with no working product and a manufacturer that tells me to fuck off.
I would ask the manufacturer how the failure of the 2nd light that THEY sent you could possibly be the fault of Amazon and why your warranty would be void.
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Old 05-18-2011, 08:31 PM
Dingbang Dingbang is offline
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Telemark, in my book, saying "Hey, we'll do it once even though we don't want to and you don't deserve it and don't ever contact us again even though our product comes with a warranty" = fuck off.

Took everyone's advice and contacted Amazon:
Ataulla:Can you hold for a minute or two while I research this for you?
Me:Yes. The new light stopped working and the manufacture will not honor the warranty now. So I'm out $45.79.
Ataulla:You mean you got a replacement order from the Manufacturer and your replacement order stop working.
Me:Correct.
And they said they would not honor the warranty because I got it through Amazon.
Ataulla:I'm sorry for the inconvenience caused.
Me:What can be done?
Ataulla: Each manufacturer handles these warranties differently.
As the item was purchased six months before we cannot honor replacement or refund for you.
I'm really sorry about this Gregory
Me:I buy a lot through Amazon but I won't any longer if I never know when a manufacturer will void the warranty. Does Amazon not want to make this right for your customer?
Ataulla:I understand your concern Gregory. But as the return window is closed we cannot issue refund or replacement for you Gregory.
Me:The timing of the return window is not the issue. You sold me a product and did not inform me that the warranty would be void.
Ataulla:I'm really sorry about this. I've made a one-time exception to our policy because of the circumstances. I request you to return the item for a full refund.
Me:Thank you. Do I follow the normal return procedure? Will the system issue a return form even though I'm past the normal window?

So Amazon came through and took care of their customer. Unlike Danner Manufacturing.
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  #21  
Old 05-18-2011, 08:48 PM
Boyo Jim Boyo Jim is offline
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...So Amazon came through and took care of their customer. Unlike Danner Manufacturing.
That's not really fair. Danner did take care of you once, and you did not give them a chance to do it again.
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Old 05-18-2011, 09:27 PM
DrDeth DrDeth is offline
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Originally Posted by Boyo Jim View Post
The manufacturer decided to honor it, but they weren't required to.

I don't think the manufacturer is the problem. Amazon is, if they sell products that they are not authorized to by the manufacturer, thus voiding a warranty, and they don't warn their customers about it.

I do think a letter to Amazon is unlikely to change anything, but it is important to create a record of your complaints with a vendor. And you might have found that Amazon would be willing to refund your money, or replace the product, had the manufacturer decided not to replace the product. And while the manufacturer did good, they also basically told you they wouldn't to it again.
How on earth would Amazon know if the manufacturor had such a policy buried deep in the fine print? They'd have to hire a team of lawyers to do nothing but read every single listed product on their site.

And, it's not Amazon's problem, it's the manufacturor for putting such a damn stupid escape clause in the warranty (one which is of doubtful enforcibily). They are the scamsters trying to get out of making things good on their product.

Anyway, Amazon does stand by their products. I bought a small light for $9.99. It was defective out of the box. In the package was a tiny little warranty of about 16 paragraphs in tiny print. Basicly, it said "you are fucked". The best part was the "lifetime warranty" which said that IF I returned the light Registered and Insured (my cost) and included a $10 "postage &handling fee" they'd send me a new lite!

Amazon quickly gave me a full refund.
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Old 05-18-2011, 09:33 PM
Dingbang Dingbang is offline
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Originally Posted by Boyo Jim View Post
That's not really fair. Danner did take care of you once, and you did not give them a chance to do it again.
They explicitly said they would not honor the warranty again. They told me directly and clearly not to contact them with another problem.

But kudos to Amazon for making it right.
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Old 05-18-2011, 09:48 PM
Francis Vaughan Francis Vaughan is offline
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One issue is that there is a significant difference between voiding a warranty and the good never having had a warranty. The OP doesn't actually say the warranty was voided. And indeed I don't think it was ever suggested that it was voided. The issue is that there never was a warranty.

Voiding a warranty comes about because you messed with the goods and broke them yourself.

Lack of a warranty comes about because there is no-one who has stepped up to carry the risk. Warranties are not always covered by the manufacturer, and it depends upon the goods and the individual market what the situation is. In many markets it isn't the manufacturer that takes the risk for faulty goods, it is the distributor or even the final reseller. The price the distributor or reseller gets the good for reflects this risk. If the manufacturer sells goods through an accredited distribution chain, and agrees with that chain that it is they, the manufacturer, that will take responsibility for warranties, the price the resellers pay for the goods will reflect that risk. In another market the same manufacturer may negotiate a deal whereby the distributor carries the risk for warranty, and sells the goods at a lower price to them. In that market the manufacturer is not the warranty provider and is quite within their right to say so.

Now on Amazon it isn't clear what the channel was. But if the goods came by way of a path that didn't include the warranty risk terminating at the manufacturer, they are probably not going to be too pleased.

This isn't an unusual situation. The perhaps best known one in Nikon cameras in the USA. Nikon USA carry the warranty risk, not the manufacturer. This results in the converse situation. Nikon USA will not honour the warranty on an overseas purchased camera, since they didn't get paid for carrying that risk. (They will honour the warranty for international travellers with appropriate documentation i.e. passport.)
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Old 05-18-2011, 09:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Dingbang View Post
I paid about the same price I think I would have paid at Home Depot or some other store. I just ordered it from Amazon for the same reason I order a lot of stuff there: convenience.

I'll chalk this up as a learning experience, but it's eye opening to learn that Amazon is considered some sort of questionable retailer by some manufacturers. I really thought of it as every bit legit as any mortar and brick store I can walk into. I wouldn't think twice about the warranty being valid at any store I go to, and I'm surprised that I have to think about Amazon that way.
Same here. I had no idea that something sourced via Amazon in 2011 as the primary seller (not as a re-seller) had potential warranty issues.
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Old 05-18-2011, 10:27 PM
Boyo Jim Boyo Jim is offline
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Originally Posted by DrDeth View Post
How on earth would Amazon know if the manufacturor had such a policy buried deep in the fine print? They'd have to hire a team of lawyers to do nothing but read every single listed product on their site.

And, it's not Amazon's problem, it's the manufacturor for putting such a damn stupid escape clause in the warranty (one which is of doubtful enforcibily). They are the scamsters trying to get out of making things good on their product.

Anyway, Amazon does stand by their products. I bought a small light for $9.99. It was defective out of the box. In the package was a tiny little warranty of about 16 paragraphs in tiny print. Basicly, it said "you are fucked". The best part was the "lifetime warranty" which said that IF I returned the light Registered and Insured (my cost) and included a $10 "postage &handling fee" they'd send me a new lite!

Amazon quickly gave me a full refund.
Having re-read the OP, I think that Dingbang should have contacted Amazon first, and been guided by what Amazon said. Perhaps Amazon offers it's own warranty or refund policy for its products, beyond or apart from what a manufacturer would offer.

I do agree that so long as someone in the chain from manufacturer to retailer backs up the product, there's no real problem.

I will also say that I have no experience in retail, so perhaps I am speaking from ignorance. But, yes, I would expect retailers to have relationships with their suppliers and to know the terms under which the products on their "shelves" are sold. And I would expect a large retailer to have access to a battalion of lawyers, or as many as necessary to review the contracts with their suppliers, including who is responsible for what in the case of defective merchandise.


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Originally Posted by Francis Vaughan View Post
One issue is that there is a significant difference between voiding a warranty and the good never having had a warranty. The OP doesn't actually say the warranty was voided. And indeed I don't think it was ever suggested that it was voided. The issue is that there never was a warranty. ...
According to the OP, there was a warranty, but only on items purchased through "accredited vendors". I'm not enough of a lawyer to say for sure whether this set of facts constitutes "voiding" it in a legal sense, but I do know know enough about the English language to say it's an adequate plain language term to describe those facts.
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Old 05-18-2011, 10:56 PM
DrDeth DrDeth is offline
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Originally Posted by Boyo Jim View Post
I will also say that I have no experience in retail, so perhaps I am speaking from ignorance. But, yes, I would expect retailers to have relationships with their suppliers and to know the terms under which the products on their "shelves" are sold. And I would expect a large retailer to have access to a battalion of lawyers, or as many as necessary to review the contracts with their suppliers, including who is responsible for what in the case of defective merchandise. .
I am sure Amazon has plenty of lawyers, but Amazon doesn't have many suppliers as such. Amazon is a listing service for most of the good sold on it's site. The various wholesalers, jobbers, suppliers and middlemen just use Amazon as a listing service, and pay a fee.
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Old 05-18-2011, 11:02 PM
Mr. Slant Mr.  Slant is offline
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On edit:
Ooops. Didn't read thred properly. Post was redundant.

Last edited by Mr. Slant; 05-18-2011 at 11:05 PM..
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  #29  
Old 05-18-2011, 11:15 PM
Mr. Slant Mr.  Slant is offline
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Originally Posted by DrDeth View Post
I am sure Amazon has plenty of lawyers, but Amazon doesn't have many suppliers as such. Amazon is a listing service for most of the good sold on it's site. The various wholesalers, jobbers, suppliers and middlemen just use Amazon as a listing service, and pay a fee.
I generally enjoy and feel informed by your posts, but I'm going to have to demand a cite.
I sell a number of products on Amazon, and I'm quite certain that Amazon does in fact buy directly from the manufacturer on any number of items.
I've seen them stocking over 1,000 units of a brand new book the day that book is released, and at 40% off list.
It's possible to buy overstock, remainder or other 'not quite new' books without dealing with the publisher.
It is impossible to get that many pieces of any single title on the day of release at 40% off list without buying from the publisher.

BTW, if the OP wants to message me, I can provide an email address at Amazon that will almost certainly get a satisfactory explanation of this matter for him, for his future reference. I'd post it, but posting that email tends to degrade its usefulness.
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Old 05-19-2011, 12:09 AM
DrDeth DrDeth is offline
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Originally Posted by Mr. Slant View Post
I generally enjoy and feel informed by your posts, but I'm going to have to demand a cite.
I sell a number of products on Amazon, and I'm quite certain that Amazon does in fact buy directly from the manufacturer on any number of items.
I've seen them stocking over 1,000 units of a brand new book the day that book is released, and at 40% off list.
It's possible to buy overstock, remainder or other 'not quite new' books without dealing with the publisher.
It is impossible to get that many pieces of any single title on the day of release at 40% off list without buying from the publisher.

BTW, if the OP wants to message me, I can provide an email address at Amazon that will almost certainly get a satisfactory explanation of this matter for him, for his future reference. I'd post it, but posting that email tends to degrade its usefulness.
Sure, and if is says "fulfillment by Amazon" then it is. but most of the stuff is sold by outside vendors. Even so, Amazon mostly does books directly, and books are rarely a warranty issue.

Note that I said "but Amazon doesn't have many suppliers as such. Amazon is a listing service for most of the good sold on it's site."

As you said- you sell on Amazon yourself. About 90% of the goods I have bought on Amazon have been from vendors. Mostly, when I buy direct from Amazon, it's for a new bestselling book.

Last edited by DrDeth; 05-19-2011 at 12:10 AM..
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Old 05-19-2011, 12:32 AM
FoundWaldo FoundWaldo is offline
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It is simply untrue that most of what Amazon sells directly is books. This information is available in their financial reports. Amazon stocks in their warehouses and directly sells apparel, tools, electronics, food, computers, software, jewelry, furniture and almost everything else you can think of. Many items are sold by other merchants, but not as many as you imply.
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  #32  
Old 05-19-2011, 01:08 AM
Mr. Slant Mr.  Slant is offline
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Originally Posted by DrDeth View Post
Sure, and if is says "fulfillment by Amazon" then it is. but most of the stuff is sold by outside vendors.
Well, here's another bit of ignorance for me to fight.
If you want to buy from Amazon itself, you're looking for items that are 'Ships from and sold by Amazon'.
An item that says "Fulfillment by Amazon" actually means that the warehouse is owned by Amazon, the warehouse staff is employed by Amazon, the customer service staff is employed by Amazon, and that your shipping will be arranged by Amazon.
I am not Amazon, but I nonetheless have a few thousand items sitting on shelves in the Amazon warehouses in Breinigsville PA. Every one shows up on Amazon's site with "Fulfillment by Amazon" on the associated listing.
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  #33  
Old 05-19-2011, 04:17 AM
Hennessy Hennessy is offline
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It really isn't a big deal, just something you have to chalk up to. Most things on Amazon have large discounts and it's hard to find things that don't have some margin of discount. When you buy something, there is a seller and it shows the seller's name. Most the sellers have names you never heard of, that right there should be your agenda when using Amazon, sellers that are no names you shouldn't expect a warranty although they still might grant you one. The seller may not have that item in stock when it breaks on you and they aren't going to buy a special item for you when their supplier either can't give them a discount anymore (unless bulk) or the product is discontinued.

The sellers on Amazon may include in the description if their items have manufactured warranties or you can email them and some even have phone numbers. So it may be worth it to contact them first. You could even google their names and see if they have a website.

You just viewed Amazon as one big store when it's not... No big deal, the same sellers on Amazon are probably on Ebay as well, you wouldn't expect a warranty from Ebay would you?
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  #34  
Old 05-19-2011, 08:28 AM
Dingbang Dingbang is offline
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Originally Posted by Hennessy View Post
you wouldn't expect a warranty from Ebay would you?
No, because Ebay clearly is an avenue for making a transaction with other parties, including individuals -- akin to buying at a flea market rather than a department store.

Amazon can serve a similar purpose but in many cases, including this one, it gives every appearance of being a traditional retailer that puts its wares on display via the Internet rather than shelves in a store.

That's the crux of this whole thing: Buying from Amazon (except when it's clear you're really buying from some other party through the Amazon site) seems to me and a lot of other people like buying from any other brick and mortar store where you wouldn't think twice about whether the warranty on a $45 item will be honored. (Cartier watches, Nikon cameras, and such are a different issue. I'm talking about the kind of purchase you'd make at Target without thinking twice.)

It appears that assumption was wrong, so I guess ignorance has been beaten into submission once again. The other lesson is that Amazon's service is great and I'd go to them if I encountered a similar problem again.
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  #35  
Old 05-19-2011, 09:29 AM
Ruminator Ruminator is offline
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Originally Posted by Dingbang View Post
That's the crux of this whole thing: Buying from Amazon (...) seems to me and a lot of other people like buying from any other brick and mortar store where you wouldn't think twice about whether the warranty on a $45 item will be honored. ... I'm talking about the kind of purchase you'd make at Target without thinking twice.)

$45 ???

Sorry, but to put it bluntly, I think Danner Mfg. is being a prima donna prick about this. Maybe I'm missing some part of the story here.

Anyways, their advice to the consumer is asking for an unreasonable set of behaviors that nobody would do for a $45 item.

First, I went to Danner's website to see if they have a "authorized dealers listing." It didn't. However, if you click around some more, you eventually get to a product focused website such as PondMaster. I guess this is where the average typical consumer who doesn't have a million other things to do is supposed to diligently enter in their zipcode to see if Target, Home Depot, or amazon.com is on their "accredited" list. (None of those retailers are on their list.)

I do understand the whole "accredited/authorized" dealers relationship for certain items... especially high-ticket items. Yamaha warns customers about buying grey market pianos, Nikon USA about grey market cameras, etc. But the pond light thing seems illogical. Why exactly is such a restrictive dealer relationship in place for such a mickey mouse device? Do they think customers will drown in their pond while submerging their light underwater during the installation? Do the dealers don scuba gear to properly install it? At $45, it costs almost as much to UPS ship the thing back and forth for warranty purposes.

As a manufacturer, they certainly have every right to authorize any elite group of dealers they want. However, they also need to have a reality check about how customers will perceive their product and whether a warranty question mark would even be on the buyers' radar.
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  #36  
Old 05-19-2011, 10:15 AM
DrDeth DrDeth is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Slant View Post
Well, here's another bit of ignorance for me to fight.
If you want to buy from Amazon itself, you're looking for items that are 'Ships from and sold by Amazon'.
An item that says "Fulfillment by Amazon" actually means that the warehouse is owned by Amazon, the warehouse staff is employed by Amazon, the customer service staff is employed by Amazon, and that your shipping will be arranged by Amazon.
I am not Amazon, but I nonetheless have a few thousand items sitting on shelves in the Amazon warehouses in Breinigsville PA. Every one shows up on Amazon's site with "Fulfillment by Amazon" on the associated listing.
Ok, thanks- but still, only a small % of goods are either 'Ships from and sold by Amazon' or Fulfillment by Amazon". And being that "Fulfillment by Amazon" is not "buying direct from Aamazon" that's even less items sold direct by Amazon.

Last edited by DrDeth; 05-19-2011 at 10:16 AM..
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  #37  
Old 05-19-2011, 12:12 PM
Balthisar Balthisar is offline
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Originally Posted by DrDeth View Post
Ok, thanks- but still, only a small % of goods are either 'Ships from and sold by Amazon' or Fulfillment by Amazon". And being that "Fulfillment by Amazon" is not "buying direct from Aamazon" that's even less items sold direct by Amazon.
I've never read an annual report, but I wonder (honestly) about the claim of percentages. For the same reasons that I avoid eBay with a passion these days, I avoid purchasing anything from Amazon unless it specifically says "Ships from and sold by Amazon" in the ad. Heck, it's the first box I tick when performing a search. And books are a miniscule portion of what I buy there. Maybe I'm just an outlier?
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  #38  
Old 05-19-2011, 12:49 PM
RedSwinglineOne RedSwinglineOne is offline
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While its certainly possible that legally, Danner Mfg does not have to honor their warranty, I have no doubt that Amazon, who has a great customer satisfaction reputation, expects its suppliers to do whatever is necessary to satisfy the customer. Amazon knows it is their reputation on the line, and if a supplier becomes a problem, they will likely stop selling their products.

If one of Danner Mfg's official suppliers is selling through Amazon, you should have been referred to them to take care of the problem(s).
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  #39  
Old 05-19-2011, 01:54 PM
Mr. Slant Mr.  Slant is offline
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Originally Posted by DrDeth View Post
Ok, thanks- but still, only a small % of goods are either 'Ships from and sold by Amazon' or Fulfillment by Amazon". And being that "Fulfillment by Amazon" is not "buying direct from Aamazon" that's even less items sold direct by Amazon.
Amazon seems to think that over 2/3 of sales on its site are items owned by and shipped by Amazon.
This is from the 2010 annual report:
Sales of products by marketplace sellers on our websites represented 31%, 30%, and 28% of unit sales in 2010, 2009, and 2008. Revenues from these sales are recorded as a net amount. Because we focus on operating profits, we are largely neutral on whether an item is sold by us or by another seller.

Cite:
http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix....-reportsannual
Link: http://phx.corporate-ir.net/External...xUeXBlPTM=&t=1
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  #40  
Old 05-19-2011, 02:25 PM
DrDeth DrDeth is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Slant View Post
Amazon seems to think that over 2/3 of sales on its site are items owned by and shipped by Amazon.
This is from the 2010 annual report:
Sales of products by marketplace sellers on our websites represented 31%, 30%, and 28% of unit sales in 2010, 2009, and 2008. Revenues from these sales are recorded as a net amount. Because we focus on operating profits, we are largely neutral on whether an item is sold by us or by another seller.

Cite:
http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix....-reportsannual
Link: http://phx.corporate-ir.net/External...xUeXBlPTM=&t=1
Good cite. Oddly, of my last three pages of Amazon purchases, exactly one was from Amazon, and only two from "fulfillment by Amazon". Hmmm. I guess I am not a typical Ammy customer, altho they have made me a Vine Reviewer, so they must like something I am doing.
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  #41  
Old 05-19-2011, 04:36 PM
ZenBeam ZenBeam is offline
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So for those of us playing along at home, are items labeled Ships from and sold by Amazon.com ones where we can expect the warranty to be honored?
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  #42  
Old 05-19-2011, 04:51 PM
jtgain jtgain is offline
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Originally Posted by Dingbang View Post
They explicitly said they would not honor the warranty again. They told me directly and clearly not to contact them with another problem.

But kudos to Amazon for making it right.
I would have taken that to mean, "Don't buy another of our products from Amazon and expect a warranty."

In this case, THEY sent you a product that failed very quickly. I would scream until I was blue that Amazon has nothing to do with this as the product that THEY sent is now the problem at hand. Sure, maybe the first one can be blamed on Amazon's handling practices or whatever, but the one you have now came directly from them. Amazon was not involved in that at all. Amazon actually bailed them and you both out. It sounds like they sell a garbage product.
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  #43  
Old 05-19-2011, 05:07 PM
iamthewalrus(:3= iamthewalrus(:3= is offline
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I'm still trying to wrap my head around why the OP was upset with Amazon at all. I'd be upset with the manufacturer.

The manufacturer refused to stand up for the reliability of their product. I don't care what their printed warranty is. Hiding behind a clause like that when something fails after less than a year is shitty behavior. And, then, the replacement breaks again shortly after. It's pretty clear they've got both shoddy products and shoddy customer service.
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  #44  
Old 05-19-2011, 05:08 PM
Ruminator Ruminator is offline
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Originally Posted by ZenBeam View Post
So for those of us playing along at home, are items labeled Ships from and sold by Amazon.com ones where we can expect the warranty to be honored?
With "Ships from and sold by Amazon.com", there's a better chance that it comes with a standard manufacturer's warranty but it's not a sure thing. In my experience, amazon is an authorized dealer for most items they sell.

For concrete examples of my earlier references to Canon and Cartier brands...

http://www.amazon.com/Canon-100-400m.../dp/B00007GQLS

As of today, that link shows "Ships from and sold by Amazon.com" and amazon happens to be a real authorized dealor for Canon photographic equipment. But the brand name isn't enough to determine this. To narrow it down further, amazon is not authorized dealer for Canon's large capacity business copiers that cost $10,000. Canon consumer photo gear -- yes ... but Canon business copiers -- no.

Here's a Cartier watch example:

http://www.amazon.com/Cartier-Womens.../dp/B001TRF3G4

Amazon is not an authorized dealer for Cartier. If you buy the watch from them, you can't take a broken watch to a Cartier store at the mall and expect them to fix it under warranty. However, if you scroll amazon's web page, you'll see the verbage: "Warranty Offer: All Cartier watches purchased Direct from Amazon.com are covered by a limited two-year warranty at no additional cost (see details). Applies only to products sold by Amazon.com. ..."

Amazon therefore contracts its warranty service to some 3rd party. Is the substitute warranty as good as Cartier's warranty? No, but for some folks, it's worth the 15% discount.

The two examples above are consistent with common sense expectations of price and value. The Canon photo lens from amazon.com comes with the standard USA warranty but at the same time, any price comparison will show that amazon doesn't really sell it for less than their competitors. On the other hand, the Cartier watch sells for less than the one at the mall. Therefore, there should be some consumer instinct telling you that something must be different about that watch. Maybe it doesn't come with a gilded gift box, or lifetime of replacement batteries, or a free lunch with Cartier's CEO?! It turns out that difference is the warranty.

(amazon.com constantly updates their product web pages so they may no longer say "Ships from and sold by Amazon.com" but they did at the time I wrote this post.)
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  #45  
Old 05-20-2011, 08:39 AM
Dingbang Dingbang is offline
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Originally Posted by iamthewalrus(:3= View Post
I'm still trying to wrap my head around why the OP was upset with Amazon at all.
I wasn't upset with Amazon. Didn't mean for the OP to sound that way. I was upset and surprised that buying from Amazon would somehow void the warranty, but I never saw it as Amazon's fault.
I did get a little frustrated at the thought that Amazon might know this and not tell its customers, but after this discussion I can see it's really just crappy product from a crappy company with crappy customer service.
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  #46  
Old 05-23-2011, 09:21 AM
drachillix drachillix is offline
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Originally Posted by Dingbang View Post
So Amazon came through and took care of their customer. Unlike Danner Manufacturing.
Actually, correct me if I am wrong here...but Amazon just did the same thing as Danner, they gave you a one shot exception.
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  #47  
Old 05-23-2011, 09:27 AM
Dingbang Dingbang is offline
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Originally Posted by drachillix View Post
Actually, correct me if I am wrong here...but Amazon just did the same thing as Danner, they gave you a one shot exception.
Well, I guess that's right as far as the exception goes. But they gave me cold hard American cash, as opposed to shipping me another crappy product that failed and telling me not to bother them again.

Danner = left me with a piece of junk that I can throw in the trash.

Amazon = left me with cash that made me whole and I can spend elsewhere.

My vote still goes with Amazon.
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  #48  
Old 03-20-2014, 11:43 PM
Lastmanjack Lastmanjack is offline
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Warranty void ebay Amazon etc

I just found this out myself & the Answer basically is, Large multi national companies want to protect the fact that they sell at different trade price to different countrys & want to protect that & stop you taking advantage of it so they invoke 2 ways to do it, 1 they quote that they consider any product bought through ebay/Amazon etc to be SECONHAND no matter how you bought it, & 2 if it came from abroad then it is "OUT OF REGION" it is a disgusting practice but legal, your only chance of warranty is with the company that actually sold it to you & chance is they bought a few cheap from abroad themselves prob China & made a profit & are now selling something else under another name, I have contacted Whatchdog on this, I suggest you all pass this around & make people aware, maybe if we create enough noise companys will honour the warranty, or no one will buy new items from ebay/Amazon till they do.









Quote:
Originally Posted by Dingbang View Post
Is there any reason that a manufacturer would consider purchasing through Amazon.com a less-than-legitimate method and void the warranty?

I bought a pond light through Amazon in November 2010 and in February 2011 it stopped working. I had been quite satisfied with it up until then and thought it was a good value. I contacted Danner Manufacturing and they said I should send it to them for repair or replacement, with the receipt. I did that and within a couple of weeks they sent me a new one. Nice customer service, right? I was impressed until I read the packing slip that accompanied the replacement.

It included a snarky note explaining that the company's products are not covered by warranty when purchased through Amazon, Ebay, flea markets or other "non accredited vendors." The product was being replaced as a "one time courtesy only." Another note at the bottom told me that I should use an accredited vendor the next time I buy a Danner Mfg. product. All highlighted in yellow.

Isn't Amazon just like buying the product from any other legitimate retailer? I bought it as a new item through Amazon, not a used item.

(The new light stopped working after another month. Since Danner made clear that they won't honor the warranty, I had no recourse other than posting this info in a review on Amazon.)
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  #49  
Old 03-20-2014, 11:58 PM
Lastmanjack Lastmanjack is offline
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Warranty

My other point is, if a company makes & sells a product & gives a warranty, it should not matter were, when & how or by who, or whether you are the original purchaser or the 6th owner, if you have the original invoice & it is still in the warranty period it should be honoured without question, it says 12 months warranty, it doesn't say if you buy this as a present & give it to someone else its not covered, its the product that is warranteed not the person, but it is a clause that they know they can squeeze out of thereby reducing their number of replacements & saving millions of s, in future I will be questioning all warrantys on products I purchase & if they are not transferable in the timespan I wont purchase.
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  #50  
Old 03-21-2014, 12:03 AM
Doug K. Doug K. is offline
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I think the warranty on this thread expired nearly two years ago.
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