On "I'm Christian, unless you're gay" and Christian "tolerance"

[Condescending Robot]

(Mods please fix typo in title. That's another thing not to tolerate...)

So, this has become the latest feel-good Internet meme with the occasional real-world resonance.

I find it absolutely appalling and a perfect summation of what's wrong with the "tolerant/liberal Christian" attitude towards sexual minorities.

First off, it goes for the typical No True Scotsman. History of Christian responsibility for gay-bashing? Welp, those weren't The Real Christians so it doesn't matter! Not our problem! And just like that, the historical--and ongoing--Christian persecution of sexual minorities becomes an internecine theological dispute rather than a pressing problem of other people's safety and wellbeing.

Of course, this is an emanation of the fundamental problem with the attitude of the article, which is its focus on lumping everyone who is “different” into a single mass. It advocates “tolerance” of gays, of the pierced, of gang members, of wife-beaters. Being gay is the same as shooting metal into your nose at age 15 to make a fashion statement, the same as being a hardened criminal, the same as abusing your spouse. This is what those preaching "tolerance" of the gay community preach!

This isn't about accepting legitimate sexual differences at all. It’s about showing how morally righteous the Christian is for piously restraining his desire to put us all in jail where we belong with the biker gangs and the meth-heads and the guys who bounce their wives off the walls. Aren't they so upstanding and saintly for tolerating such filth!

I don’t want to be compared to a violent criminal or some teenager's fashion accessories for being gay. I don’t want you to gloat about how “tolerant” you are of my disgusting behavior. Christian “tolerance” and Christian hatred are two sides of the same coin. Stop saying that my sexuality is something you get brownie points for “tolerating.” I don't lose any moral standing for being gay and I don't need to be "tolerated" for it by someone who believes in a goddamn invisible man in the sky.

Sometimes the "liberal, tolerant" Christians are worse than the fundmentalists/evangelicals. At least the latter group doesn't dress up their horror at the existence of gays in the language of "tolerance" and talk about how awesome they are for it. There is one mentally diseased state that I should get credit for "tolerating" despite the repulsion it inspires in any sane person, and it's not homosexuality, it's religion.

[The Hamster King]

Christ, what a self-congratulatory, smarmy little prick.

[Inner Stickler]

I find this whole posting very confusing and I would have appreciated some choice quotes from the article to demonstrate your points.

[Condescending Robot]

Originally Posted by Inner Stickler

I find this whole posting very confusing and I would have appreciated some choice quotes from the article to demonstrate your points.

The worst paragraph:

"The greatest spiritual leaders in history have all preached love for others as the basis for all happiness, and never did they accompany such mandates with a list of unlovable actions or deeds. They never said, love everybody except for the gays. Love everybody except for the homeless. Love everybody except for the drug users. Love everybody except for the gang members, or those covered in ink, or the spouse abusers. They didn’t tell us it was okay to love everybody with the exception of the “trailer trash,” those living in poverty, or the illegal immigrants. They didn’t tell us it was okay to love everybody except for our ex-lovers, our lovers’ ex lovers, or our ex-lovers’ lovers. The mandate was pretty damn clear, wasn’t it?
Love others.

Period."

[Miller]

If that's the absolute worst paragraph, what the fuck are you whining about?

[Trinopus]

Many Christians are stinking hypocrites. This is supposed to be news to us?

Many years ago, a so-called Christian was yelling about how he was going to get revenge on someone who'd wronged him. I said, "Shouldn't you just turn the other cheek?" He said, "I'll turn the other cheek, all right, and then I'm gonna deck that son of a bitch!"

Christianity, as practiced by large numbers, right there in a nut-shell.

Just remember that they aren't all like that.

[Condescending Robot]

Originally Posted by Miller

If that's the absolute worst paragraph, what the fuck are you whining about?

The fact that "Christian tolerance" reduces to "look how awesome I am for not gunning down the scum of the earth, like gang members, wife-beaters, and two adult men in a loving monogamous relationship!"

Even when preaching "tolerance" Christianity cannot get past its fundamental belief in homosexuality being abhorrent and equivalent to the worst crimes imaginable.

[drewtwo99]

Christianity preaches that homosexual behavior/actions are sins. Sins are equal in the eyes of God. So yes, you're just as bad as anyone else who sins. A true Christian believes that all sinners are equal and equally worthy of punishment.

Do you really not understand this basic premise of Christian doctrine?

For the record, I am gay and I think it's shitty too, but it's their religion and who am I to say they shouldn't believe what they believe. Their actions of course are a different matter. If it goes from hating gays to hurting them, that's when we can get outraged and start up the lawsuits.

[Condescending Robot]

Originally Posted by drewtwo99

Christianity preaches that homosexual behavior/actions are sins. Sins are equal in the eyes of God. So yes, you're just as bad as anyone else who sins. A true Christian believes that all sinners are equal and equally worthy of punishment.

Do you really not understand this basic premise of Christian doctrine

I understand it and recoil from it as an absolutely repulsive, evil belief, as all reasonable people ought to.

[A Monkey With a Gun]

Originally Posted by Condescending Robot

Even when preaching "tolerance" Christianity cannot get past its fundamental belief in homosexuality being abhorrent and equivalent to the worst crimes imaginable.

I think you're reaching. As well as gays, the paragraph you quoted also mentions: the homeless, people with tattoos, living in poverty, and ex-lovers. Are you equating those to the "worst crimes imaginable"?

[Algher]

Originally Posted by Condescending Robot

The fact that "Christian tolerance" reduces to "look how awesome I am for not gunning down the scum of the earth, like gang members, wife-beaters, and two adult men in a loving monogamous relationship!"

Even when preaching "tolerance" Christianity cannot get past its fundamental belief in homosexuality being abhorrent and equivalent to the worst crimes imaginable.

Bull fucking shit. Your inability to read and parse is reflected in your inability to post a decent rant.

That paragraph is an attempt to preach on Christ's statement to love, without any conditions. The author goes on to list all of the groups that many would prefer to leave off, but the author reminds us all that the statement is to love. Period. This is an admonishment to Christians that the guy we profess to love did not give us any outs, no matter what we might prefer.

Hell, there is a picture going around on Facebook right now:
http://lawlitasbearings.tumblr.com/p...ucking-stutter

I am one of those Christians who loves all, regardless. Yes, that regardless caveat comes into play on a regular basis when I WANT to have an excuse to hate someone, but my faith and morals reminds me that I must love all. I don't always like it, but I don't have a choice if I want to try to walk Christ's walk.

I even must love you, even though you appear to be dumber than a bag of hammers with this rant.

[Sampiro]

Originally Posted by Condescending Robot

...with the occasional real-world resonance.

Pardon a possible hijack, but... several people have that posted on Facebook where I can see. For those who haven't read it, here it is in a nutshell:

-A teacher gives her class an assignment to write an essay in response to this guy's "I'm Christian, unless you're gay" video and writing

-One mother of a 15 year old son in the class gets furious and goes into a rant threatening to call the teacher

-Her son leaves home and becomes moody and then tells her via email and texts he won't come home until she reads his essay

-In the essay... you will never guess what he tells her, not if you live to be 159 will you EVER guess, it's so ironic, so out of left field, so poignant, so... oh, yeah, that is it, you guessed, her 15 year old son is gay. Oh, and mom and dad make him feel like shit due to his tolerance.

-Now mom writes that this has made her reexaming her views and "I'm much better now" and liberal and tolerant and all


Okay, I won't say that this is beyond the realm of possibility. It is possible it happened. But I would be WAY BEYOND surprised if it is anything other than pure unadulterated authentic Internet glurge.

Ignoring the fact that the story is trite and simplistic and "Stevie Wonder saw that one coming" enough to be on GLEE, most homophobic mothers who just learned their 15 year old son is gay are not going to go from "I hate fags!" to proud P-FLAG mom in two weeks and they sure as hell aren't going to write this guy back and tell him how great he is for writing that column, not a single solitary sentence of which is really new to the table. So not only do I think it's glurge, I think it's glurge from the same writer deliberately trying to draw attention to himself and how wonderful what he wrote is, and that it could well bite him in the ass if the meme lasts long enough for anybody to much care. (This is a D-List meme after all and they rarely last longer than a piece of salmon.)

I

[Inner Stickler]

Tolerance as a word for loving and accepting people is far too firmly embedded in the english language and complaining that you are not to be just tolerated when someone talks of tolerance misses the mark just as badly as when someone insists they are not homophobic because phobia means fear and they don't fear queers.

I think that you're purposefully interpreting the quote in the worst way possible and were you to ask the author about his intent he could clarify his comments. Certainly this board is well aware of arguments that liken homosexuality to pedophilia and bestiality and has rejected them. We're already on your side.

[drewtwo99]

Sampiro, I agree with you 100%. That "essay" that the 15 year old kid wrote smelled suspiciously of someone who (poorly) tried to imitate how a 15 year old would write. I was a teacher for 2 years, and I know their general level of prose. It's definitely not (usually) what was in that post.

And you're right, it's not impossible for it to have happened, but it's certainly far more likely that the entire story was just made up. Especially the whole "I WAS JUST GOING TO LEAVE THIS MASSIVELY IMPORTANT ISSUE ALONE FOREVER AND NEVER MENTION IT AGAIN, BUT I JUST HAAAD TO SHARE WITH YOU THIS AMAZING REACTION IT GOT ALL ON ITS OWN!!!"

Ridiculous. I call bullshit too.

[Miller]

Originally Posted by Condescending Robot

The fact that "Christian tolerance" reduces to "look how awesome I am for not gunning down the scum of the earth, like gang members, wife-beaters, and two adult men in a loving monogamous relationship!"

Even when preaching "tolerance" Christianity cannot get past its fundamental belief in homosexuality being abhorrent and equivalent to the worst crimes imaginable.

Wow, that does sound bad! I'm surprised you didn't quote the part of the essay that says that. Instead of the part you quoted, which doesn't say anything even remotely like that.

[jsgoddess]

I'm utterly baffled right now and I need a primer.

[Boyo Jim]

FAIL!

Bad! Bad, bad gay person!

[njtt]

I agree. All Christians, and not just the bigoted intolerant ones, ought to hate gays. It is a good thing that people like the OP are doing their best to make sure that they do. Far too many of them are getting away with being tolerant and decent people. Why I have heard that some Christians are even gay themselves! If we don't put a stop to this, some Christians will be professing liberal or even leftist political views next, or expressing doubts about the wisdom of burning witches!

Thank goodness that I am an atheist, and therefore will not be made to feel obliged hate gays.

[gamerunknown]

I think you'll enjoy this one, from an out Catholic homosexual.

[Steophan]

Originally Posted by drewtwo99

For the record, I am gay and I think it's shitty too, but it's their religion and who am I to say they shouldn't believe what they believe.

If you are someone who believes that people are entitled to love who they want, and don't believe that the voices in your head, and millennia-old writings describing the voices in other people's heads, tell you who can or can't love each other, you are quite entitled to tell them what they should believe.

Because they are wrong, in an evil and dangerous manner.

[Paul in Qatar]

So the OP is upset that some people do not cause him and trouble, but they do so for reasons he finds objectionable? That is some serious mental gymnastics there, fella.

[boytyperanma]

Originally Posted by Paul in Qatar

So the OP is upset that some people do not cause him and trouble, but they do so for reasons he finds objectionable? That is some serious mental gymnastics there, fella.

I'm so upset and angry by these articles someone please tell me who to be angry at! It's all so confusing.

[Der Trihs]

Originally Posted by Paul in Qatar

So the OP is upset that some people do not cause him and trouble, but they do so for reasons he finds objectionable? That is some serious mental gymnastics there, fella.

Not really. The Christian fundamentalists who support Israel because they want it to be in place for a massive slaughter of the Jews of Israel in the fulfillment of (their version of) Biblical prophecy creep out quite a lot of Jews, I understand.

[anya marie]

I'm glad other people have issues with that typed dreck. It seemed as fake as a 7 dollar bill. That essay stunk like a week-old roadkill.


While there are some good christians, some posting HERE, a bunch of them in Indiana are hateful, annoying hypocrites, writing letters to the newspapers with malice and stupidity dripping from them. I'm not seeing many logical, reasoned arguments from that lot, but they sure can throw some bible verses around.

[tdn]

Originally Posted by Algher

I even must love you, even though you appear to be dumber than a bag of hammers with this rant.

I think you're missing the point. By, like, a LOT.

Please spare me your love. I release you of your obligation to do so.

[Vinyl Turnip]

I think the OP has a reasonable point, perhaps inelegantly phrased. While "we tolerate you just like we tolerate every other manner of deviant" is, I suppose, a degree of improvement over "die, faggots," it's still a condescending little demi-step toward what the norm ought to be, which is "it's not our business to 'tolerate' you at all because there's nothing wrong with you."

At least I think that's what he's getting at.

[digs]

Hey, Condescending --
Our church has a GLBT group. So we're even bigger hypocrites.

Neener-neener.

[John Mace]

There are Christian groups that think homosexuality is a sin? Ignorance fought!

[Ludovic]

If I were a Christian who was in lockstep with the entire dogma, then I would not have any free will, but yet would be sort of insulting by sighing and saying "well, I have to love you anyway even though you're less than me."

Would that make me a condescending robot?

[Rune]

Originally Posted by Condescending Robot

The worst paragraph:

Goddamn it! What a pussy faggot preacher. I can’t stand all that loving bullshit. I hate gays, drug users, gang members, trailer trash, the poor, and the immigrants, but must of all I hate pinky gay-ass pastors preaching love and forgiveness and stupid shit. But happily I make sure all my ex-lovers are dead. And what’s that faggotry thing about spouse abusers?! Only whiney ass girly-men gets abused by their women, and women just have to take what’s coming to them.

[Condescending Robot]

I think using this analogy is usually stupid but hey, let's go for it.

"Don't worry about being black. I forgive you. I can look past that sin and love you. I'm so fucking awesome!"

See the problem? See the biogtry? See why Christians are terrible?

[tdn]

Originally Posted by Vinyl Turnip

I think the OP has a reasonable point, perhaps inelegantly phrased. While "we tolerate you just like we tolerate every other manner of deviant" is, I suppose, a degree of improvement over "die, faggots," it's still a condescending little demi-step toward what the norm ought to be, which is "it's not our business to 'tolerate' you at all because there's nothing wrong with you."

At least I think that's what he's getting at.

Yes, I think you get it. Why people are having a hard time understanding this is beyond me.

"What you do is a horrible sin, but I'll tolerate you because God says I have to. How awesome am I?" Not all that awesome, actually.

[John Mace]

Originally Posted by tdn

Yes, I think you get it. Why people are having a hard time understanding this is beyond me.

"What you do is a horrible sin, but I'll tolerate you because God says I have to. How awesome am I?" Not all that awesome, actually.

Can you quote the part was the person says "how awesome am I"? The OP linked to some 20+ minute video that I'm not going to watch.

Not saying I think you're wrong, I just would like to see what the person actually said that makes you think he is saying that.

[PandaBear77]

How about I just love you because Jesus died for you, like he did for me as well? Is that ok? Or is that eeeeevil too?

Seriously, man -- if the worst thing that ever happens to you because you're gay is that you get tolerated -- sack up. There have been unspeakable things done to gays in the name of religion -- being left alone to live your own life in peace is not one of them.

[The Hamster King]

Originally Posted by tdn

Yes, I think you get it. Why people are having a hard time understanding this is beyond me.

"What you do is a horrible sin, but I'll tolerate you because God says I have to. How awesome am I?" Not all that awesome, actually.

Exactly. I suppose that if it gets some Christians to stop being such nasty haters, it's a step in the right direction, but it falls far short of accepting homosexual love as a natural, respectable, and beautiful thing.

[Larry Borgia]

This is only one (1) Christian. It's silly to extrapolate from a soon to be expired internet meme to all Christianity. Were I gay I'd be much more concerned about groups like Focus on the Family and National Organization for Marriage, than a solitary closet case on the internet plaintively appealing that we should love and tolerate people we find strange.

[Polycarp]

Originally Posted by tdn

I think you're missing the point. By, like, a LOT.

Please spare me your love. I release you of your obligation to do so.

No, you are.

Although since all atheists believe in forced gay marriages with mandatory abortion of any pregnancies that result (Don't ask!), I suppose I shouldn't expect anything more.

Good luck figuring out why I posted that -- hint: it's ironic in nature.

[tdn]

Originally Posted by John Mace

Not saying I think you're wrong, I just would like to see what the person actually said that makes you think he is saying that.

I was actually referring to the mom's blog post, but on re-read, I may have read a certain smugness into it that probably isn't there.

[tdn]

Originally Posted by Polycarp

No, you are.

I never said anything about what all Christians believe. I was commenting on the subset who generously "tolerate" those horrible, horrible gays.

[Really Not All That Bright]

I'm kind of surprised at the attitude to the OP. I totally see his point, along the lines of Vinyl Turnip's post. "Tolerating" someone just means you're not intolerant. It doesn't mean you're nice. A person who tolerates gays the same way they tolerate gang members and spousal abusers is a bigot.

On the other hand, there are Christians who tolerate gang members and wife beaters and just "don't have a problem" with gays. There's a Facebook group called The Christian Left that I'm a member of even though I'm not a Christian nor particularly leftist; they're like that.

[Der Trihs]

Originally Posted by tdn

Yes, I think you get it. Why people are having a hard time understanding this is beyond me.

"What you do is a horrible sin, but I'll tolerate you because God says I have to. How awesome am I?" Not all that awesome, actually.

Originally Posted by Really Not All That Bright

I'm kind of surprised at the attitude to the OP.

It's not surprising to me at all. It's a common attitude here that we are supposed to bend over backwards to pretend that Christianity is nice and that the bigots are some tiny minority, instead of the norm. It's OK to condemn a small & unpopular religion like Scientology, but never Christianity - it's supposed to be looked upon as a good thing. If the OP had gone on with a lot of excuses about how the people he's complaining about are "just a tiny minority" and how they "don't represent Christianity" then it would have been much better received.

[drewtwo99]

This is so ridiculous, honestly. There are PLENTY of things that I "tolerate" that I don't think are particularly good, but I don't think they are illegal.

I tolerate people who swear a lot. I tolerate people with tattoos and piercings all over their bodies. I tolerate people who espouse bigoted beliefs. I tolerate my grandpa when he says racist crap. I even tolerate vegetarians and vegans. These are qualities and actions that aren't right for me and that I don't agree with, but I tolerate people who embody them and I treat them kindly, with respect, etc.

There is NOTHING wrong with tolerating people who do things that you don't agree with. If you think homosexuality is wrong, and that practicing sodomy or whatever is a sin, then that's your belief. If you are a good person, you are going to tolerate gays, be polite to them, and love them as you are instructed as a Christian to love them.

Just because we're all hunky-dory with homosexuality doesn't mean everyone has to be. There are lots of different beliefs in this world, and it's our behaviors and actions towards others that define us.

[Condescending Robot]

Right. Although, in a sense, the people who preach the dagger of "tolerance" towards gays/wife-beaters/motorcycle gangs/other things that Christian perversity deems morally equivalent are indeeed the minority. In most of the world, Christians still just kill you or put you in jail for being gay and don't do the "tolerance" dog-and-pony show.

[Really Not All That Bright]

I tolerate people who swear a lot. I tolerate people with tattoos and piercings all over their bodies. I tolerate people who espouse bigoted beliefs. I tolerate my grandpa when he says racist crap. I even tolerate vegetarians and vegans. These are qualities and actions that aren't right for me and that I don't agree with, but I tolerate people who embody them and I treat them kindly, with respect, etc.

What the fuck are you "tolerating" about vegetarians? Other than the meat-is-murder brigade, they make absolutely no difference in your life. Tolerance implies that you are giving up something, as in "I am tolerant of Muslims because I don't go fucking ape when the muezzin at the local mosque wakes me up at 5 am."

Same's true of gay people in the lives of Christians: they're not tolerating them in any real sense, because it doesn't make a damn bit of difference whether there are gays around.

[Malacandra]

Originally Posted by The Hamster King

Christ, what a self-congratulatory, smarmy little prick.

That's no way to speak about Condescending Robot.

[Miller]

Originally Posted by tdn

Yes, I think you get it. Why people are having a hard time understanding this is beyond me.

It's not that the concept is beyond anyone here. It's that the OP has chosen a piss-poor example of it.

[coffeecat]

People want to criticize the essay/video should at least read it or watch it first.

[The Hamster King]

Originally Posted by Malacandra

That's no way to speak about Condescending Robot.

No, Condescending Robot is a poster of outstanding moral character and clear insight.

The writer of "I'm Christian unless you're gay" is the self-congratulatory, smarmy little prick.

[Malacandra]

Originally Posted by The Hamster King

No, Condescending Robot is a poster of outstanding moral character and clear insight.

The writer of "I'm Christian unless you're gay" is the self-congratulatory, smarmy little prick.

Oh, thanks for clearing that up for me. I wouldn't want to go around misconstruing anything you posted, even if it looked funny that way.

[Condescending Robot]

Originally Posted by drewtwo99

If you think homosexuality is wrong, and that practicing sodomy or whatever is a sin, then that's your belief. If you are a good person, you are going to tolerate gays, be polite to them, and love them as you are instructed as a Christian to love them.

Bullshit.

If you think homosexuality is wrong or that practicing sodomy is "a sin," your beliefs are incorrect and you are a bad person. You should change your beliefs.

The idea that one can be a homophobe and a "good person" is stretching the concept of "good person" so far that I suspect it could only come from a Christian or someone equally confused about morality.