Good riddance to bad rubbish: Chuck Colson is dead

[Snowboarder Bo]

The fucker finally died, at 80 years old.

Sorry, but I don't buy into the born-again thing, especially not for someone as devious and cynical as Colson was, so no, he doesn't get any credit for working the God angle. He was a son of a bitch and a fucking traitorous asshole.

He will not be missed.

[Chefguy]

So the head CREEP is gone. What a nest of high-placed criminals they all were. That was a remarkably paranoid White House occupant that gave rise to these guys.

[TriPolar]

He was repentent. I'll give him that. The rest of them never gave a rat's ass. (sorry if I've forgotten someone who did give a rat's ass).

[TriPolar]

Missed the edit window:


ETA: I didn't realize I was in the pit. Rot in hell you scumbags. I hope the maggots get sick and puke in your festering corpses. If it'd been up to me you all would have been hanged, slowly, and repeatedly. Scum sucking traiterous bastards, you shit all over the country that gave you everything you had. Hang you by the balls is what I meant. I hope you spend eternity as an 8 year old boy with uncle Sandusky in your cell. Colson, you can leave when the Cubs win the series.

[BigT]

If rehabilitation is impossible, why not just kill everyone who goes to jail?

I mean, I haven't been following the man, but if he really was doing good (or at least, avoiding doing bad) for the rest of his life, then I can't join this pitting. I save that type of ire for unrepentant douchebags, and there's enough of them that I don't need any more ire.

[TriPolar]

Originally Posted by BigT

If rehabilitation is impossible, why not just kill everyone who goes to jail?

I mean, I haven't been following the man, but if he really was doing good (or at least, avoiding doing bad) for the rest of his life, then I can't join this pitting. I save that type of ire for unrepentant douchebags, and there's enough of them that I don't need any more ire.

I agree. But if there is going to be a reckoning (I don't really believe there will be) then I'm going to pay a severe price when I get there, and Colson should do the same. So like I said, when the Cubs win the Series, Colson can move on. The rest of them deserve an eternal sentence. Except Nixon. Justice will only be achieved when he is entirely forgotten.

[The Second Stone]

Originally Posted by TriPolar

He was repentent. I'll give him that. The rest of them never gave a rat's ass. (sorry if I've forgotten someone who did give a rat's ass).

I think John Dean has been repentant.

[Simplicio]

Originally Posted by TriPolar

He was repentent. I'll give him that. The rest of them never gave a rat's ass. (sorry if I've forgotten someone who did give a rat's ass).

Was he? The article linked in the OP makes it sound like he went on to do some good work with the prison system, but as for repenting for his actual crimes he seems to have come up somewhat short. He apparently died without having apologized to Ellsberg, and the article makes it sound like he was angrier at Mark Felt then he was at himself for how Watergate ended up going down.

[TriPolar]

Originally Posted by The Second Stone

I think John Dean has been repentant.

Yeah, I'm sure the little weasel is sorry he got caught. That's not repenting.

Originally Posted by Simplicio

Was he? The article linked in the OP makes it sound like he went on to do some good work with the prison system, but as for repenting for his actual crimes he seems to have come up somewhat short. He apparently died without having apologized to Ellsberg, and the article makes it sound like he was angrier at Mark Felt then he was at himself for how Watergate ended up going down.

I don't know what was in his heart. But if he didn't really repent, he can rot in hell til the Cubs win the series. Which is the sentence I recommended before, but if you think about it, it's pretty much the same as eternal damnation. Somewhere in there, those who admit their guilt and ask forgiveness ought to be given some. If he didn't do that, let him rot. But since I actually believe he's dead now, and exists no more in any meaningful sense, there isn't much point in this except to rant once more about the crime.

[Lancia]

For your consideration:

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...d.php?t=649206

[Der Trihs]

Originally Posted by Snowboarder Bo

Sorry, but I don't buy into the born-again thing, especially not for someone as devious and cynical as Colson was, so no, he doesn't get any credit for working the God angle.

In fact, that simply further condemns him as far as I'm concerned.

[Guinastasia]

As I said, fuck him. In a way, shouldn't he be GLAD that Mark Felt exposed him? I mean, then he wouldn't have had his amazing turn around in prison?

[Lynn Bodoni]

I don't believe that any of that group was ever sorry that they did anything. Oh, they were sorry that they were CAUGHT, but they weren't sorry for what they did. What's more, I don't believe that Colson found any sort of god, other than the god of putting on a great show of how pious he was now. What did he have to lose? He wasn't going to really be able to do anything else, and playing the repentant might get him some consideration.

[Mr. Moto]

He pled guilty to obstruction of justice in the Ellsberg case, apparantly when he did not need to do so. This is the charge that led to his imprisonment.

I don't know whether Ellsberg ever got a further apology. In my mind a guilty plea followed by imprisonment and rehabilitation is probably enough.

[Kimmy_Gibbler]

Originally Posted by Lancia

For your consideration:

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...d.php?t=649206

...... And QSH rides another few miles on a one-trick pony. I don't think anybody's consideration of that thread needs to extend past a few seconds.

[Flyer]

Originally Posted by Snowboarder Bo

The fucker finally died, at 80 years old.

Sorry, but I don't buy into the born-again thing, especially not for someone as devious and cynical as Colson was, so no, he doesn't get any credit for working the God angle. He was a son of a bitch and a fucking traitorous asshole.

He will not be missed.

Originally Posted by Der Trihs

In fact, that simply further condemns him as far as I'm concerned.

Originally Posted by Guinastasia

As I said, fuck him. In a way, shouldn't he be GLAD that Mark Felt exposed him? I mean, then he wouldn't have had his amazing turn around in prison?

Originally Posted by Lynn Bodoni

I don't believe that any of that group was ever sorry that they did anything. Oh, they were sorry that they were CAUGHT, but they weren't sorry for what they did. What's more, I don't believe that Colson found any sort of god, other than the god of putting on a great show of how pious he was now. What did he have to lose? He wasn't going to really be able to do anything else, and playing the repentant might get him some consideration.

Chuck Colson did a great deal of good after he got out of prison.

All you idiots who condemn him are despicable morons. You are scum of the earth. You are vile, disgusting slime-ridden, pus-infested pieces of garbage. You are lower than the people who deliberately infect people with AIDS.

I hope that you have nothing but trouble and bad luck for a very, very long time. Years of suffering would be too good for you.

[Der Trihs]

Originally Posted by Flyer

Chuck Colson did a great deal of good after he got out of prison.

No, he did a great deal of harm. He promoted fanaticism, corrupted prisoners, helped push America further towards theocracy and helped make the Republican base the loonies they are today.

Originally Posted by Flyer

All you idiots who condemn him are despicable morons. You are scum of the earth. You are vile, disgusting slime-ridden, pus-infested pieces of garbage. You are lower than the people who deliberately infect people with AIDS.

I hope that you have nothing but trouble and bad luck for a very, very long time. Years of suffering would be too good for you.

Ah, feel the Christian love...

[Mr. Moto]

Sorry. Can't go along with wishing others grave misfortune. That's about as attractive as the grave dancing we see here.

[Simplicio]

Originally Posted by Mr. Moto

He pled guilty to obstruction of justice in the Ellsberg case, apparantly when he did not need to do so. This is the charge that led to his imprisonment.

According to the article linked in the OP, his plea was an effort was to deflect further charges. And he was guilty of assisting with the Watergate cover-up, something he never pled guilty to or served any time for.

I don't know whether Ellsberg ever got a further apology.

He didn't.

In my mind a guilty plea followed by imprisonment and rehabilitation is probably enough.

Enough for what? I was responding to an earlier claim that he was repentant. I don't think there's much evidence that he ever repentant of his original crimes.

[Mr. Moto]

Turning your life around for close to forty years comes close.

Look, he did some bad things which I will not excuse and he was not a perfect person after he was freed. That would describe so many people, including some that this board would reflexively defend for political reasons.

Screw all of that. Let him rest in the peace I hope he finds and that none of us deserves.

[Simplicio]

Originally Posted by Flyer

Chuck Colson did a great deal of good after he got out of prison.

And a great deal of harm before. Plenty of people do good charity work. Colson and his associates are fairly unique in the amount of damage they did to American's faith in their governing institutions.

All you idiots who condemn him are despicable morons. You are scum of the earth. You are vile, disgusting slime-ridden, pus-infested pieces of garbage. You are lower than the people who deliberately infect people with AIDS.

Are we lower then people that use buglers and thugs to undermine the Democratic process?

I'm not celebrating his death or anything, but I can understand why people are pissed. Watergate and the other misdeeds of the Nixon administration were a big deal, enough so that even 40 years later people are justifiably angry. Pointing at the fact that one of the perpetrators did some nice charity work later in life and expecting that to make people forgive him is silly.

[FloatyGimpy]

Originally Posted by Flyer

All you idiots who condemn him are despicable morons. You are scum of the earth. You are vile, disgusting slime-ridden, pus-infested pieces of garbage. You are lower than the people who deliberately infect people with AIDS.

I hope that you have nothing but trouble and bad luck for a very, very long time. Years of suffering would be too good for you.

Yeah but how do you really feel?

[Simplicio]

Originally Posted by Mr. Moto

Turning your life around for close to forty years comes close.

Comes close to being repentant? I don't agree. I think repentance for a crime involves acknowledging that you committed it, acknowledging it was wrong and trying to make amends. Just doing good works in some unrelated facet of your life might be nice for other reasons, but I don't think it signifies repentance.

Instead Colson's most vocal statements on Watergate after his trial appear to be outrage at the guy that ratted him out.

(also "turned his life around" to me suggests not doing what he did before. Which is certainly true in this case, but kind of a silly defence, its not like he was going to have an opportunity to participate in another major gov't conspiracy, and I imagine Ellsburg's psychiatrist has invested in some better alarm systems).

Look, he did some bad things which I will not excuse and he was not a perfect person after he was freed. That would describe so many people, including some that this board would reflexively defend for political reasons.

Some people are more imperfect then others.

(Aside: I hate when people argue against "the board". There's no such beast.)

Screw all of that. Let him rest in the peace I hope he finds and that none of us deserves.

He's famous for his involvement in Nixon's smear campaigns and Watergate, so that's what people are discussing on the occasion of his death.

[Mr. Moto]

Originally Posted by Simplicio

Are we lower then people that use buglers and thugs to undermine the Democratic process?

How can you undermine the democratic process with a bugle?

[Kimmy_Gibbler]

Originally Posted by Flyer

Chuck Colson did a great deal of good after he got out of prison.

All you idiots who condemn him are despicable morons. You are scum of the earth. You are vile, disgusting slime-ridden, pus-infested pieces of garbage. You are lower than the people who deliberately infect people with AIDS.

I hope that you have nothing but trouble and bad luck for a very, very long time. Years of suffering would be too good for you.

A fitting tribute. Chuck Colson basically invented our modern, toxic politics-by-invective.

Look at your defense of the man. It's one-sixth building him up (however anemically you can---and who can blame you, there ain't that much to say in his defense) and five-sixths arrant pissing on anyone caught in the crossfire.

Some legacy.

[Der Trihs]

Originally Posted by Simplicio

(also "turned his life around" to me suggests not doing what he did before. Which is certainly true in this case, <snip>

Not really. As I said in the other thread, he was an unscrupulous Republican operative who just went from one set of scummy tactics to another. He was still working in an underhanded, manipulative fashion to promote Republicanism. He didn't change any more than a serial killer who has switched from a knife to a gun has really changed.

[Lobohan]

Originally Posted by Flyer

Chuck Colson did a great deal of good after he got out of prison.

All you idiots who condemn him are despicable morons. You are scum of the earth. You are vile, disgusting slime-ridden, pus-infested pieces of garbage. You are lower than the people who deliberately infect people with AIDS.

I hope that you have nothing but trouble and bad luck for a very, very long time. Years of suffering would be too good for you.

I think people who purposely infect people with AIDS are generally better folk than Republicans. Generally, there are always exceptions.

[Der Trihs]

Originally Posted by Lobohan

I think people who purposely infect people with AIDS are generally better folk than Republicans.

They pretty much are the same thing. The Republicans have always essentially looked at AIDS as a biological weapon to kill gays and Africans; something to be encouraged, not stopped.

[Lobohan]

Originally Posted by Der Trihs

They pretty much are the same thing. The Republicans have always essentially looked at AIDS as a biological weapon to kill gays and Africans; something to be encouraged, not stopped.

I'm loathe to say this, but Bush actually did some good work for AIDS in Africa.

Gah, my mouth tastes like ash.

[Simplicio]

Originally Posted by Der Trihs

They pretty much are the same thing. The Republicans have always essentially looked at AIDS as a biological weapon to kill gays and Africans; something to be encouraged, not stopped.

You're a crazy person.

[Alessan]

I find this thread's obsession with "repentance" surprisingly Christian.

[gamerunknown]

Repentance is meaningless unless the penitent indemnifies themselves. If done after they've been caught, it's just a simple way to restitute their own image. Which is why I find the dichotomy between unrepentant and repentant criminals to be trite, especially when used as a defence of capital punishment. The mens rea when committing the crime would be exactly the same and I'd actually have far more respect for a gradual transformation than an immediate acknowledgement of culpability: if anything, it shows that they knew how despicable their actions were before committing the crime.

This guy has about fuck all on Gregg York or Sidney Gottlieb though.

[TriPolar]

Originally Posted by Alessan

I find this thread's obsession with "repentance" surprisingly Christian.

I didn't refer to repentance in a religious sense. Just someone acknowledging their bad acts and trying to lead a better life. There's a concentration on apology by some that doesn't impress me. Apologies are easy (or should be), but demonstration of changed ways is more difficult. I've heard Colson denounce his own actions and the philosophy behind it, so I give him some credit for that.

[Alessan]

But he did try to live a better life.

Since when are words or thoughts more important that actions? I mean, what would you prefer - a man who says he's sorry and feels bad about himself, or a man who does neither of these things, but instead acts to make the world a better place?

[TriPolar]

Originally Posted by Alessan

But he did try to live a better life.

Since when are words or thoughts more important that actions? I mean, what would you prefer - a man who says he's sorry and feels bad about himself, or a man who does neither of these things, but instead acts to make the world a better place?

I'd prefer someone who did both. Colson has satisfied that to some degree.

[aldiboronti]

From some of the posts in this thread one would think that Hitler had just popped his clogs. For fuck's sake, as bad men go this one was about as evil as Mary Poppins. Expend such vituperation on people like this and where do you go for expletives when someone really nasty dies? Turn it down a notch, why dontcha? We'll still get the point.

[Alessan]

I've found that people who lived through Watergate seem to have an extremely strong emotional investment in anything and anyone involved.

Myself, I was born two weeks before he resigned.

[furt]

Originally Posted by Alessan

But he did try to live a better life.

Since when are words or thoughts more important that actions? I mean, what would you prefer - a man who says he's sorry and feels bad about himself, or a man who does neither of these things, but instead acts to make the world a better place?

Indeed, and this is the attitude Colson explictly embraced: that endlessly rehashing Watergate and going around saying "sorry" all the time would be seen as empty words, and that his job was to show he was sorry through his actions.


I'm not a huge fan of everything he's done post-Watergate but Prison Fellowship has done a hell of a lot of good for a hell of a lot of people -- most of whom are the kind of people that most of us don't give a damn about.

In the second half of his life, Colson did an awful lot of really good things; how that balances with some of the shitty things he did in the first half, God only knows. I do feel pretty confident that, all things considered, he was a better man than me.

[pseudotriton ruber ruber]

Originally Posted by furt

he was a better man than me.

I can believe this. And since I know that Colson was a shittier human being than I can ever hope to be, I also know where you and I stand, Furt.

[Alessan]

That was uncalled for.

[Der Trihs]

Originally Posted by Simplicio

You're a crazy person.

No; you are apparently either in denial, lying, or have been living under a rock since the 70s if you think they've felt any other way. Right back to the beginning, when Reagan and company dragged their heels as long a possible on doing anything at all, in the hopes that as many homosexuals as possible would die from it.

Originally Posted by Lobohan

I'm loathe to say this, but Bush actually did some good work for AIDS in Africa.

Gah, my mouth tastes like ash.

And he appointed a guy to head the anti-AIDS effort in America who thought that it could be cured by prayer.

[furt]

Originally Posted by Alessan

That was uncalled for.

Meh. It's okay to be self-righteous when you really are more righteous.

I'm sure PRR has no doubt spent decades working to help society's outcasts and their families live better lives, passing up more lucrative second careers to do so. More power to him in all that charity work he does.

[pseudotriton ruber ruber]

Matter of fact, I have and I do. No brag, just fact. I've chosen to teach young people, often poor young people, writing skills to help them earn a living, at a considerable financial sacrifice compared to other members of my Ivy League graduating class, most of whom went on, with no better credentials than I had, to careers far more lucrative than a mere college professor's. Your point being?

[Chefguy]

Originally Posted by Flyer

Chuck Colson did a great deal of good after he got out of prison.

All you idiots who condemn him are despicable morons. You are scum of the earth. You are vile, disgusting slime-ridden, pus-infested pieces of garbage. You are lower than the people who deliberately infect people with AIDS.

I hope that you have nothing but trouble and bad luck for a very, very long time. Years of suffering would be too good for you.

He just traded one scam for another.

[Dissonance]

Originally Posted by Der Trihs

No; you are apparently either in denial, lying, or have been living under a rock since the 70s if you think they've felt any other way. Right back to the beginning, when Reagan and company dragged their heels as long a possible on doing anything at all, in the hopes that as many homosexuals as possible would die from it.

I'm reminded of a line by Brad Pitt in Se7en.

I've been trying to figure something in my head, and maybe you can help me out, yeah? When a person is insane, as you clearly are, do you know that you're insane? Maybe you're just sitting around, reading "Guns and Ammo", masturbating in your own feces, do you just stop and go, "Wow! It is amazing how fucking crazy I really am!"? Yeah. Do you guys do that?

So Red Shirt, do you?

[Bryan Ekers]

Originally Posted by Mr. Moto

Look, he did some bad things which I will not excuse and he was not a perfect person after he was freed. That would describe so many people, including some that this board would reflexively defend for political reasons.

What he was doing is so very bad and put the U.S. at such fundamental risk that I'm a little hard-pressed to see that his cohort is "so many" large. I'm rather inclined to lump him in with traitors like John Anthony Walker, who was also playing a extraordinarily dangerous game while being willfully blind to the broader implications.

Screw all of that. Let him rest in the peace I hope he finds and that none of us deserves.

Fuck that self-hating shit. I know I deserve a better "rest" than Colson because, for starters, I've never turned into the equivalent of the guy compiling a list of stores to hit come Kristallnacht.

[elucidator]

My grandmother, the most Christian person I ever knew, assured me that when you repent your sins and fling yourself upon the infinite mercy of the Lord, you are redeemed, and your reservation on the Hellbound Train is cancelled.

So, when we get to Hell, Chuck won't be there. I'd rather hang out with you guys, anyway.

It will always be Pledge Week, though. Forever.

[GIGObuster]

Originally Posted by Bryan Ekers

What he was doing is so very bad and put the U.S. at such fundamental risk that I'm a little hard-pressed to see that his cohort is "so many" large.

Dick Cheney and Don Rumsfeld also came from the Nixon administration, they had learned "well".

[BigAppleBucky]

Originally Posted by Snowboarder Bo

The fucker finally died, at 80 years old.

Sorry, but I don't buy into the born-again thing, especially not for someone as devious and cynical as Colson was, so no, he doesn't get any credit for working the God angle. He was a son of a bitch and a fucking traitorous asshole.

He will not be missed.

Wasn't he Karl Rove's dirty tricks mentor? I know Segretti was Rove's direct boss, but didn't Colson head up the dark side?

If so, his evil has outlived him.

[Simplicio]

Originally Posted by furt

Indeed, and this is the attitude Colson explictly embraced: that endlessly rehashing Watergate and going around saying "sorry" all the time would be seen as empty words

So far as I can tell, he apparently believed so strongly that he shouldn't have to go around saying sorry all the time that he didn't do it at all.

and that his job was to show he was sorry through his actions.

That was my original point though. His actions didn't really show any regret for his actual crimes. Its nice that he did some charity work after he got out of prison. I don't see how that in any way indicates he was sorry for his actions, the actions that people were angry with him for have nothing to do with prisons or prisoners.

Plenty of awful people do good works in other areas of their lives.

I do feel pretty confident that, all things considered, he was a better man than me.

I guess that depends on how many illegal abuses of executive power you've participated in.