Oh the ongoing saga of being divorced with a kid

[Omar Little]

My son's birthday is this week. In one year he will turn 18, at which point I will no longer be required to pay child support to his mother. We share joint physical custody, so he is with us 50% of the time and with his mom and stepdad 50% of the time. My son also has a half brother there as well. He loves his family, both sides and he worries about his mom's household financial condition. The disparities between the financial where-with-all of our two households is significant.

We have been divorced for about 11 years now. My ex received a 6 figure settlement from me at the time of our divorce including one of the houses we owned, as well as alimony and child support. She re-married within a year of our divorce, which stopped the alimony, and she and her new husband blew through all of the cash; sold the house and blew through all of the equity within 18 months of getting married.

She borrows money from my son frequently for gas and other misc. expenses. The child support I pay her represents about 30% of their family monthly income. I too worry about their situation, especially after next year when the monthly stipend from me comes to an end.

We were married for 14 years at the time of our divorce. Deep down I still care about her, but at the same time I'm very glad we are no longer together. She knows how to push my buttons, and as such I try to limit the amount of communication I have with her, to only what is necessary.

My son has been honored to be selected as a student ambassador from our state to travel with about 200 other students to Europe next summer (2013) for about 16 days. I think this would be a wonder experience for him prior to going off to college. The cost of the trip will be about $6,000, which is actually a really good deal for a two week trip to London, Paris, Geneva, Venice, Munich, and Frankfurt.

We have to make a decision if he's going to be able to go and put down a non-refundable deposit by the end of next week. I told him that he needs to figure out how he's going to pay for the whole trip before we put down the deposit. I also told him that I would be willing to pay for half of the cost of the trip, and that he should consider how much he himself would pay for out of his own pocket, and ask his mother how much she would be willing to contribute.

She receives about $15,000 a year from me (tax-free) for him living with her 50% of the time. I know that she doesn't spend even half of that amount on him. So I do not feel that I am unreasonable in expecting her to consider committing some amount of money for his trip. But my son is worried that they won't be able to afford it and doesn't want to broach the subject with her because of the apparent financial difficulties they always seem to have.

I'm torn between wanting to help my son have this experience, and teaching him to take more of a responsibility for his own goals.

[phreesh]

Wow. I don't have an answer for you. In a perfect world, she pays half(ish), but that seems unlikely to happen.

If you have the wherewithal, I'd push her to the edge, but then pony up as much as your son needs. It sounds like an amazing opportunity that he should take advantage of.

Good luck with this crappy situation.

[gwendee]

Him not getting to go because his mom didn't step up isn't right.

If the one learning from this teachable moment was your son rather than his mother I'd be all for that. But if he's helping her with gas money and worried about her finances I'd say your son is responsible beyond his years and shouldn't miss this really great opportunity.

Yes, he should be expected to make fiscally prudent choices and contribute, but should not be made to worry that the trip is in jeopardy if his mother mismanages her own funds or doesn't choose to participate.

Now, in your shoes I might approach her and say that you'll be scaling back your monthly payments to a total of $12,000 next year and that's how she pays her half.
I don't know if she'd go for it. It might not be worth the unrest it would cost.

I'm sorry it isn't all easier for you, and for your son.

[Ian D. Bergkamp]

Easy for me to say, I know, since I'm not the one writing the check, but I'd pay for the trip.

From your description, even if your ex-wife agreed to fund part of the trip, it wouldn't be the best use of her money (and that includes the money she gets from you). She appears to have more pressing needs for it. That may not be fair, but that seems to be the situation.

And you don't want to put your son in the position where he resents both you and your ex-wife for not being able to come to some agreement on the trip, if in fact that is the case. So, if you can swing it financially, I suggest doing it. Don't deny him the trip based on the principle that his mother should foot some of the bill.

I know you said you wanted him to take some responsibility, so maybe come up with a plan to have him make whatever money he can in advance and work off some of the debt afterward.

[Omar Little]

Originally Posted by gwendee

Now, in your shoes I might approach her and say that you'll be scaling back your monthly payments to a total of $12,000 next year and that's how she pays her half.

That of course would be violating a court order and not paying your child support is a criminal offense in my state. Not going down that road.

I will most likely make sure he goes, but I want him to take the ownership of it. Seek out what she's willing to do. He'll be off to college next year. I'm not going with him, and he's going to have to learn this level of responsibility himself.

[Omar Little]

Originally Posted by I'm Not Dennis Bergkamp

From your description, even if your ex-wife agreed to fund part of the trip, it wouldn't be the best use of her money (and that includes the money she gets from you). She appears to have more pressing needs for it. That may not be fair, but that seems to be the situation.

We went through this same situation about 4 or 5 years ago. My original child support amount that we agreed to was double what the state mandated amount was. I discovered that she wasn't paying her share of his private school tuition, because of all of these "pressing needs" she had. I took her to court and had my child support lowered to the state mandated amount at that time. The court agreed that since she wasn't keeping up with her responsibilities to pay her share of my son's expenses with support that I paid her, that she had effectively breached our contract. The said child support was to be used for the support of the child, not for her or her husband's personal expenses.

[Inner Stickler]

It seems to me that asking your son what he can pay for and how he's going to come by that money is an absolutely wonderful idea when it comes to teaching your kid fiscal responsibility. I'm less clear on what asking his mom to chip in is supposed to teach him.

[Omar Little]

Originally Posted by Inner Stickler

It seems to me that asking your son what he can pay for and how he's going to come by that money is an absolutely wonderful idea when it comes to teaching your kid fiscal responsibility. I'm less clear on what asking his mom to chip in is supposed to teach him.

My son clearly understands the financial arrangement between his mother and I. He's 17. He also knows that she is responsible for half of his support via what I pay her each month. I don't believe that he should disregard those facts, simply because his mom is terrible with money.

[Icarus]

Originally Posted by Omar Little

My son clearly understands the financial arrangement between his mother and I. He's 17. He also knows that she is responsible for half of his support via what I pay her each month. I don't believe that he should disregard those facts, simply because his mom is terrible with money.

So you are clearly establishing to him that mom is a deadbeat with money. Congratulations. You win. OK, now that you've won...............

From the outside, it really sounds like you are engaged in a battle and putting him in the middle.

[ems]

Not totally the same situation but similar. mr ems has been divorced from his ex for 10 years and has paid child support that entire time. His eldest daughter graduates high school next week which means as of June 1st the child support for her stops (for his youngest daughter it continues).

During the time they were married she was a huge spender and racked up massive credit card debt and forced them into bankruptcy with her spending habits. She was re-married within 2 weeks of the divorce and we know that they are in a similar situation. We also know that the money he gives does not get spent on the kids and we know that the reduction in child support is going to have a massive impact on the finances of the household (approx a $6K a year reduction - which may not seem a lot but given they are on payment plans for taxes to the feds for the past 3 years and we ended up paying the electric bill twice last year so they didn't get cut off). We are concerned. We help the kids directly rather than giving her more money to squander.

My sympathies but your son sounds very mature and responsible and that is a great opportunity. We did this for a car for his eldest (not the same amount but a similar situation) - we agreed on paying for half upfront. She was responsible for gas/insurance. We then worked out a plan where she 'paid' us back at $X per month from her job which we then matched her $ for our $0.50. This way she got the car she needed but was shown how a responsible person pays for things.

In all practicality we have put the money she paid into an account and she will be getting it back for graduation. Her mother wanted us to pay for a hugely overpriced/way more car than his daughter needed but I put my foot down that is another story.

We are in the lucky position of being able to help out financially and while we don't want the girls to lose out at the same time we want them to be responsible and not expect us to foot the bill. We think we have struck the right balance.

[Švejk]

Originally Posted by Omar Little

The cost of the trip will be about $6,000, which is actually a really good deal for a two week trip to London, Paris, Geneva, Venice, Munich, and Frankfurt.

I'm sure this will be a great experience for your son but I think that 6K for a 2 week trip to Europe is not a 'good deal' by any stretch of the imagination, unless it's first class flights for all legs of the trip, five star hotels, and ditto food.

[SnakesCatLady]

Originally Posted by Omar Little

My son clearly understands the financial arrangement between his mother and I. He's 17. He also knows that she is responsible for half of his support via what I pay her each month. I don't believe that he should disregard those facts, simply because his mom is terrible with money.

He shouldn't disregard those facts - but he's also not responsible for what his mother does with the child support.

I'm glad you're going to try to see that he makes the trip; it may be a once in a lifetime chance for him. (I wanted to go to Europe for graduation; I got braces) I also agree he should ask his mother to contribute. I'm sure she'll agree but whether she will actually follow through and pony up any money is another story.

Does your son have a part time job? Is it possible for him to get one?

[Dangerosa]

First $3k is a lot of money to a 17 year old kid. Thats about 400 hours worth of flipping burgers. If it were also a lot of money to you, this would be a different situation, but it doesn't sound like it is.

Second, he knows his mother doesn't manage money well. You know it. Him "owning" it will only embarrass him and her.

Leave your ex completely out of it. If you want him to "own" some of this, give him some way to own it - "I'll pay for half out of my own pocket and loan you the other half....you can pay me back and as you pay me back, I'll start forgiving some of the debt." Sort of ems' matching plan. Write up a contract to that end and put in the penalty - if he doesn't pay you back then he will need to mow the lawn every summer...or help build a deck....or .....

We got my daughter an iPhone with a data plan....she "pays" for it by babysitting for friends of ours for two hours a week (the friends don't pay us or her, we just loan her to them because we couldn't figure out what she could do around the house, this seemed like a good solution.).

[MsWhatsit]

Originally Posted by Omar Little

My son clearly understands the financial arrangement between his mother and I. He's 17. He also knows that she is responsible for half of his support via what I pay her each month. I don't believe that he should disregard those facts, simply because his mom is terrible with money.

It sounds like everyone involved with this situation is fully aware of his mother's responsibilities. So, as has been pointed out already, forcing him to ask her for this money will only shame him and her. I can understand your frustration with your ex-wife's money-handling problems, but it's not your son's fault, and it's not his responsibility.

[Sateryn76]

Originally Posted by Švejk

I'm sure this will be a great experience for your son but I think that 6K for a 2 week trip to Europe is not a 'good deal' by any stretch of the imagination, unless it's first class flights for all legs of the trip, five star hotels, and ditto food.

If it's a People to People trip, then it is. It is 100% fully inclusive of everything, except souvenirs. They get background access to things like Pompeii and the Vatican, a few meetings with government-type ambassadors throughout Europe, folk dancing seminars, etc. I priced it for my daughter (she's going this summer) and when you throw in the all-access type perks, it's about even.

Also OP - if it is People to People, there are just scads and scads of resources to help the kids fund the trip. It's stuff like selling football cookies at the game, but it includes all sorts of resources on money management and business.

I'll give him this idea I had for my daughter (she was too shy to do it for her trip): have your son solicit pictures from the artsy types (or anyone else) at school, and get them to give him artwork that would work for a tee-shirt. Use that artwork to open a store at CafePress, then make the store the "local" art scene for budding teen artists. They get the credit and 50% (or whatever) of the profit, and son gets the rest for his work maintaining the store. You'd get loads of orders from kids who want cool shirts, Grandma who wants a coffee mug with Sonny Boy's artwork, etc.

It would totally work if he's the type to get the word out. And it would be fantastic experience for the business world as well.

[Inner Stickler]

You think he can build a viable CafePress store that's solvent to the tune of 3k by the end of next week? You have great faith in the youth of today.

[amarinth]

Not a child of divorced parents or a parent of any kind.
But if you and his mother were still together, who would pay for the trip?

I think it's reasonable for a junior/senior in high school to be told that he can go on this type of trip if he can pay for a portion of the trip himself; it's fair that some percentage of the funding be the kid's contribution and some portion be the parents' contribution. Perhaps half and half, perhaps a 70/30 split, perhaps something else entirely. Whatever that is, he should still have to come up with the kid's contribution.

What seems slightly unfair is that he may have to have to cover his mother's portion of the parents' contribution to the trip because she can't afford it. What seems really unfair is that, if I read the OP correctly, he's being put in the position of making the call as to how much should be her contribution.

If you can cover her share, it would be a nice thing to do. If you can't (or simply don't want to) don't, but that should be your decision, not his. It seems off for a high schooler to be making the financial decisions for the adults in his life.

[Foxy40]

Originally Posted by Icarus

So you are clearly establishing to him that mom is a deadbeat with money. Congratulations. You win. OK, now that you've won...............

From the outside, it really sounds like you are engaged in a battle and putting him in the middle.

I agree with this. Why does the 17 year old know how much dad pays to his mother? Why should he be stressed out knowing that his mother receives such and such but probably can't contribute because she "needs" to spend the money on other things.

If dad is not going to allow his ex wife's inability to pay to cost his son the trip, than he shouldn't even ask it of her. It puts son is yucky position, one he clearly doesn't want to be in.

As far as who pays, I'll stay out of that. I over indulged my son at that age and he made some bad decisions because of it.

[Sateryn76]

Originally Posted by Inner Stickler

You think he can build a viable CafePress store that's solvent to the tune of 3k by the end of next week? You have great faith in the youth of today.

I thought he was going in 2013? If it's the same thing as what we have, they take payments. If not, I bet Dad would take payments.

[gwendee]

Originally Posted by Omar Little

That of course would be violating a court order and not paying your child support is a criminal offense in my state. Not going down that road.

I will most likely make sure he goes, but I want him to take the ownership of it. Seek out what she's willing to do. He'll be off to college next year. I'm not going with him, and he's going to have to learn this level of responsibility himself.

I certainly did mean to advocate anything criminal. My son's father pays support directly to me rather than through an agency and so I've been able to accommodate changes he's needed to make time to time. I projected my situation onto yours. Sorry.

I am all for teaching kids responsibility but the way I read your OP it seemed like you were also trying to teach your ex some, too. I'm sorry to say that ship has most likely sailed. It sounds as if your son has a realistic sense of the situation, which is good for him. I really hope he gets to go on the trip. I was able to study abroad for one term and it was a tremendous experience. It is my sincere hope that my son finds a similar opportunity for himself.

[astro]

I was divorced in 94 and paid CS until 2009 when my youngest became 18. My ex would push my buttons and keeps trying to do it to this day. I'm saying this to establish I know where you are coming from re the tension of shuttling kids between two households and empathize re having to deal with an irrational or undependable spouse.

Having said all this you are, in all honesty, acting like a huge, huge jerk. Trying to drag your financially hapless ex into the question of how to come up with this money is like making fun of a retarded child. She's a financial tard, she's irresponsible, she doesn't spend your CS contribution in appropriate and responsible ways... we get it... he gets it. She sucks because she won't or can't step up with half the required amount. You have won the debate!

Really... you should be ashamed of yourself for putting your kid in this position. It's not his fault his mom's a financial idiot. You chose her and married her, not him. Putting him on the spot for an attractive opportunity he cannot possible undertake without you more or less underwriting the financial end of this is cruel.

Put on your dad pants and pay for the trip. If you want him to kick in some cash after the fact work it out with him man to man. Stop trying to drag your financially incompetent ex into this decision it's petty, stupid and controlling.

[delphica]

I think I'm hearing you on the lessons about life financing that you're hoping to impart to your son in this situation, and I would completely agree with you ... if we were talking about a situation where, let's say, he was asking for start-up money for a business venture he was going into with his irresponsible cousin, or his dingbat best friend.

Okay, but this is his mother. He sounds like a good kid, having been chosen for this program and all, and it seems crappy to run him through the mill over his mom's poor fiscal choices. You already know he's worried about this. It seems like this situation would only encourage him to resent his mother's shortcomings, and then feel guilty about resenting her (because again, it's his mom, and she hopefully has some good qualities as a parent as well). He's probably also aware, given how knowledgeable you said he is about your child support arrangements, that some of these funds are directly or indirectly benefiting his younger half brother, and on top of everything else, he might feel responsible/guilty about insisting that the money go toward his trip.

Whether you fund it or not, or assist him with a financial repayment plan (this was a great suggestion, either paying it back directly from wages or through project work for you), it would be kinder to base it on what you can afford and what you realistically feel his contribution could be. Leave dopey mom out of it.

[jasg]

Pay for it.

(Asking her to pay half when she is as poor at financial management as you say is just 'pushing her buttons' - and your son suffers.)

[elbows]

Really... you should be ashamed of yourself for putting your kid in this position. It's not his fault his mom's a financial idiot. You chose her and married her, not him. Putting him on the spot for an attractive opportunity he cannot possible undertake without you more or less underwriting the financial end of this is cruel.

Put on your dad pants and pay for the trip. If you want him to kick in some cash after the fact work it out with him man to man. Stop trying to drag your financially incompetent ex into this decision it's petty, stupid and controlling.

Nailed it.

Get over your issues with your Ex, and stop putting your son in the middle. Oh and acknowledge that your issues, with how the child support is spent, should never be shared with your child.

And while you're at it, get over your self 'teaching' him hard financial lessons. He's worried the rest of his 'other' family, may be out in the street, without your contribution. (Believe me, he's already learned all the hard financial lessons he'll need.) And all you can do is feel righteous? Seems like maybe you could do some learning too!

[Moonlitherial]

I've been through this except my bad with money ex spouse is male. Don't make your kids the go between or the ones who pay. I'm not suggesting you pay the entire amount if you can't afford it, making bad financial decisions yourself is not going to reverse the damage your ex wife's financial lessons have wrought.

What you need to do is take your ex and child support out of the equation.

If you think it's a good idea, you think he deserves it and you think you can afford it, do it.
If you think he should contribute base his contribution on what HE can control.

There are tons of great ideas in this thread of ways he can contribute himself. Don't teach him that you're going to make him pay for his mother's sins.

The other half of this however is that you don't enable him supporting her. This is something (not trip related) that you're going to have to watch for when child support stops. I found out a couple years ago that my ex started "borrowing" from my son when he started his first job at 16 and didn't stop until I had an intervention with my kids when Son was 20. By that time my ex had "borrowed" over $5000 and hadn't paid back a cent. All by using his younger half siblings as leverage. Oh you wouldn't want the kids to go hungry/without heat/without AC would you? This while the boy is working and putting himself through university and managing to save money to travel.

The intervention mostly worked (you can't teach your father good financial habits, no matter how much money you give him he can always spend more, you need to cut back on your work hours because your school work is slipping, he's not going to pay you back if you give him money you need to recognize that you're just giving it and the crowning glory - you realize that you're paying for his AC while you and your roommates have decided to not turn yours on because of the cost?) but my daughter just confessed that my son allowed my ex to use his tutition credits on his income tax this year. Since the boy doesn't earn enough to claim the credits yet it doesn't seem to him like he's handing over cash but since those credits can be saved for several years this is going to cost him later. Time for another "hey this is how tax works" lesson, but I need to have it without outing my daughter for telling me.

[Foxy40]

Originally Posted by astro

Really... you should be ashamed of yourself for putting your kid in this position. It's not his fault his mom's a financial idiot. You chose her and married her, not him. Putting him on the spot for an attractive opportunity he cannot possible undertake without you more or less underwriting the financial end of this is cruel.

Put on your dad pants and pay for the trip. If you want him to kick in some cash after the fact work it out with him man to man. Stop trying to drag your financially incompetent ex into this decision it's petty, stupid and controlling.

Yes yes yes! I found myself thinking about this thread last night and feeling so bad for this kid. Isn't being a teen enough pressure without being put in the middle of your divorced parents financial issues?

Omar needs to cough up for the darn trip and have the kid get a job to make some money for spending money. This way he does contribute but the trip doesn't depend on him getting a job in this crappy economy.

[Omar Little]

The kid's got enough money in his savings to pay for most of the trip himself. He also has a job. He doesn't need to be coddled. And he's not in between his mom and I. He has a separate relationship with each of us. He's fully aware of his mom's poor money management skills...not from me, but from first hand knowledge.

I guess I'm an easy mark here, since I've got the wherewithall to pay for the trip myself, but the problem is, so should she. Our custody arrangement is that we are supposed to share the costs of his expenditures 50/50...of course the source of her funds to pay her share come from me via the child support. When she doesn't live up to her side of the bargain, she's cheating my son and me.

I have a feeling that if I was a mom, complaining about the deadbeat father that never paid his share, the tune posted here would be a bit different.

When he heads off to college next year, I will be footing the bill. I will also no longer having my ex-wife picking my pocket.

[MsWhatsit]

Originally Posted by Omar Little

I have a feeling that if I was a mom, complaining about the deadbeat father that never paid his share, the tune posted here would be a bit different.

The problem isn't that your wife is a deadbeat who doesn't pay her share. The problem is that you are forcing your child into this situation inappropriately. If a woman were on here complaining about her deadbeat ex-husband and asking what people thought about her plan to make her child ask the deadbeat ex for money that they both knew the deadbeat wasn't going to have or be able to come up with, in order for that child to participate in an opportunity that everyone seems to think would be a worthwhile one, I think the responses would be identical.

Nobody is sympathizing with your ex-wife here. They are sympathizing with your son.

[FlyingRat]

Originally Posted by Omar Little

The kid's got enough money in his savings to pay for most of the trip himself. He also has a job. He doesn't need to be coddled. And he's not in between his mom and I. He has a separate relationship with each of us. He's fully aware of his mom's poor money management skills...not from me, but from first hand knowledge.

I guess I'm an easy mark here, since I've got the wherewithall to pay for the trip myself, but the problem is, so should she. Our custody arrangement is that we are supposed to share the costs of his expenditures 50/50...of course the source of her funds to pay her share come from me via the child support. When she doesn't live up to her side of the bargain, she's cheating my son and me.

So why are you putting him in between the two of you again? You're standing by the principle of "50/50" when you know that that isn't going to be the reality, hasn't been for some time, and isn't going to matter in another year. What are you proving in this situation, and who is going to suffer the consequences? Hint: it isn't you, and it isn't your ex.

If you're determined on principle to pay only half of the trip, then that's fine: he has the money to cover the other half. I think that sounds like a perfectly reasonable arrangement for a trip like this even leaving your ex out of it completely.

But suggesting to your son that he ask his mom for the money, knowing the situation, benefits no one except you and your wounded pride. If it really bothers you that much, man up and pick up the phone and call your ex and tell her she needs to chip in for the trip. Otherwise, do right by your son and treat him like the adult he's becoming-- which means not rubbing his nose in his mom's bad decisions.

[Maastricht]

I’m with Sveijk on this one. 6000 USD might not be much for an all expenses paid, maximum filled trip, but is that really what your son needs? Especially since either he, or his mom, can’t afford to pay it and they will have to rely on you for it, either for a gift or a loan?

Sure, you could make an do-europe-in-14-days-trip. Your son will see all the sights and he will be told all sorts of stuff.

But there are alternatives. If he wanted to fully immerse himself in a culture, he could do so much cheaper by following a study course abroad. He wouldn’t lose out on college time, it would look good on his resume, and it would teach him independence.

If he wanted just to meet kids from al over the world abroad, another possibility is to volunteer.. Also looks good on a resume and may deepen his understanding of the world and his altruism. It is also so cheap that he could afford it easily on a summer job.

Backpacking is another possibility. That also builds a lot of independence and self-reliance and self-confidence. Again, much cheaper then 6000 bucks.

A trip like the one you planned just treats your son like bus coach meat. All he will learn is how to be a tourist on all inclusive trips.

[Ian D. Bergkamp]

Originally Posted by Omar Little

Our custody arrangement is that we are supposed to share the costs of his expenditures 50/50...of course the source of her funds to pay her share come from me via the child support. When she doesn't live up to her side of the bargain, she's cheating my son and me.

This is the point I was trying to make earlier. She is cheating both of you, and that sucks, but there's nothing you can do to make your ex-wife make it right. She apparently can't support her own lifestyle at the moment even when she's improperly using your child support funds in an attempt to do so. If you were somehow able to make her live up to her obligations and pay half the cost of the trip with those funds, it would just create a bigger hole in her finances that, if I'm understanding the situation correctly, would have negative implications for your son. It's not fair and it's not right, but that seems to be the situation you've described.

Since she can't pay, the financing for the trip comes down to whatever you and your son can arrange between you. You both know that already, so what purpose is served by making him go to your ex-wife?

[Barkis is Willin']

I am not and have never been in a situation like the OP's, but I completely agree with what he's doing. It's not unreasonable to ask his 17 year old son to come up with half the expenses, even if it means asking his mom.

I don't understand the notion that the OP is trying to teach his ex a lesson or put his son in the middle of a battle. The kid apparently fully understands the situation. There aren't any lessons to be learned. Just because we all know the ex is bad with money doesn't mean she can't even be asked to take make any contributions.

[gwendee]

Since Omar Little mentioned his son would be a student ambassador I imagine there are aspects to the trip he wouldn't experience as a typical tourist.

Everything I know about the son, which I'll admit comes entirely from this thread, points to him being a good, responsible kid. My gut reaction is that whatever can be done within reason to make the trip possible for him should be done.

Forcing him to ask his mother, who he knows is on shaky financial footing puts him in a bad spot. If his choices are A) ask mom for money or B) don't go he might choose not to go to spare his mom or himself the unpleasantness that would surround asking her for money she doesn't have.

In Omar's shoes I would ask my son to be responsible for 1/3 rather than half, and would consider him asking his grandparents, aunts and uncles to chip in an acceptable way for him to add to his own savings.

Did you have problems with this woman over money, or communicating about money while you were married to her? Or fairly dividing responsibilities? When I was in the throes of divorcing my son's father one of my wisest friends asked me to remember that the problems we had in our marriage would be the same problems we had in our divorce.

[Hello Again]

Originally Posted by Barkis is Willin'

I don't understand the notion that the OP is trying to teach his ex a lesson or put his son in the middle of a battle. The kid apparently fully understands the situation. There aren't any lessons to be learned. Just because we all know the ex is bad with money doesn't mean she can't even be asked to take make any contributions.

Basically because he is instructing his son to "ask his mother for the money" when the outcome of that conversation cannot be in doubt, and in the OP it seems to be a condition of Omar's contribution. It seems he wants to force the son to act as an envoy to shame the Ex with her failings.

[LurkerInNJ]

Originally Posted by Omar Little

We have to make a decision if he's going to be able to go and put down a non-refundable deposit by the end of next week. I told him that he needs to figure out how he's going to pay for the whole trip before we put down the deposit. I also told him that I would be willing to pay for half of the cost of the trip, and that he should consider how much he himself would pay for out of his own pocket, and ask his mother how much she would be willing to contribute.

She receives about $15,000 a year from me (tax-free) for him living with her 50% of the time. I know that she doesn't spend even half of that amount on him. So I do not feel that I am unreasonable in expecting her to consider committing some amount of money for his trip. But my son is worried that they won't be able to afford it and doesn't want to broach the subject with her because of the apparent financial difficulties they always seem to have.

I'm torn between wanting to help my son have this experience, and teaching him to take more of a responsibility for his own goals.

I think you are unwittingly punishing your son for his mother's lack of money management skills. Does it suck that the funds intended for your son are not being spent exclusively on your son? Yes. Should she be kicking in for the trip? Yes. Is it ever going to happen? No. Who gets to be technically right and a total dick at the same time? You. Who loses out? Your son.

It sounds like your son is helping to support his mother, half-brother and his step-father. If that's not the case and he is blowing his wages on video games and junk food, then you have every right to expect him to chip in. If he is spending his money on helping out with groceries and gas, I'm unclear on what you expect him to do in a Catch-22 that he was unfortunate enough to be born into.

[LurkerInNJ]

Originally Posted by Omar Little

I have a feeling that if I was a mom, complaining about the deadbeat father that never paid his share, the tune posted here would be a bit different.

Not from me it wouldn't. You're 100% right that she should pay half. What you're wrong about is that you have a kid who is 100% stuck in the middle and you are looking to teach him the wrong lesson.

[Omar Little]

My contribution isn't contingent upon him asking his mom. He can come up with the other half whereever he wants to. But he doesn't want to foot the entire other half himself, nor do I expect him to. He plans on putting forth a $1,000 on his own, which will leave about $2 grand short. I suggested that he ask his mother how much she would be willing put in, since she is his other parent and does receive money from me for his support. Oh, the horror of that suggestion. What a horrible parent I am!

If she says no or nothing, he can come back to me and we talk about other alternatives. Where did I say he wasn't going to get to go? Does it piss me off that she's irresponsible, especially when it's in regard to our son? Hell yes, and rightly so.

But to suggest that I should coddle him and spare him his dissapointment of his mom's behavior, that's on her. And yes, I do think teaching him to behave in an adult like manner and having reasonable expectations of how the adults around you behave is a good lesson for him to learn. He's not 9.

ETA: and I don't remember her being this irresponsible with money when we were married, but I was more in charge of the monthly financial picture then. I paid the bills, etc. Maybe she's having more fun with her new husband, and may be why she left me.

[LurkerInNJ]

Originally Posted by Omar Little

But to suggest that I should coddle him and spare him his dissapointment of his mom's behavior, that's on her. And yes, I do think teaching him to behave in an adult like manner and having reasonable expectations of how the adults around you behave is a good lesson for him to learn. He's not 9.

This is the part that you are heartbreakingly blind to. You want to rub his nose in her shit. That's sad.

What is unreasonable is expecting the situation with his mother to change. He's going to learn a lesson all right, but it's not the one you are thinking.

[Omar Little]

Originally Posted by LurkerInNJ

He's going to learn a lesson all right, but it's not the one you are thinking.

With all of your psychological expertise and vast knowledge of my family that you've garnered in about 250 words, please tell the lesson he's going to learn.

[Shodan]

Originally Posted by Omar Little

My contribution isn't contingent upon him asking his mom. He can come up with the other half whereever he wants to. But he doesn't want to foot the entire other half himself, nor do I expect him to. He plans on putting forth a $1,000 on his own, which will leave about $2 grand short. I suggested that he ask his mother how much she would be willing put in, since she is his other parent and does receive money from me for his support. Oh, the horror of that suggestion. What a horrible parent I am!

ISTM the issue is that asking his mother to pay for a portion of it would be perfectly reasonable - if you weren't as sure as you seem to be that the answer will be No.

You know your ex is a deadbeat. Your son apparently knows his mother is a deadbeat. What's the point of making him ask her - to prove that she is a deadbeat? Everybody involved already knows that.

If she says no or nothing, he can come back to me and we talk about other alternatives. Where did I say he wasn't going to get to go? Does it piss me off that she's irresponsible, especially when it's in regard to our son? Hell yes, and rightly so.

Nobody disagrees with you that your ex should be more responsible.

But to suggest that I should coddle him and spare him his dissapointment of his mom's behavior, that's on her.

If you are forcing him to ask his mother to make some kind of point, I think it is not a good idea.

Regards,
Shodan

[PunditLisa]

I'm a married parent of 2 kids in college. We live a very comfortable life. My eldest daughter recently had a wonderful "opportunity" to study abroad for a month, to the tune of $11,000. We nearly fell off our chair when we heard the price. That was waaay over what we were willing to spend over and above tuition, even though we can technically afford it. We declined that fantastic opportunity.

We feel that it is our obligation to feed, house, and pay for our kids' college education, provided they do their part by getting good grades. These "study abroad" opportunities are not essential to getting a degree. I feel absolutely no obligation to fund them. If you want to pony up for all or part of it, so be it. But to pressure your ex-wife, who you already know is financially strapped, into paying half of what amounts to a really cool month long vacation for your adult son, is ridiculous.

If your son wants to go, then have HIM take the initiative into funding it. It's HIS trip, and it'll be a great time for him to learn that frivolities come with a price. He can drain his savings, he can work for it at home or through a traditional job or five, he can get an interest free loan from you, he can ask his grandparents for money...or he can cajole his father into ponying up for it.

But leave the ex-wife out of it. It isn't her responsibility.

[Omar Little]

Where have I said I am forcing him to ask his mother?

I actually think there is some chance that she may agree to some amount. She's not being asked to write a check today. She's going to have a whole year to come up with the dough. She get's checks from me twice a month. All she needs to do is set aside $83 out of each of those future checks. That's not so hard. At least it shouldn't be.

[Omar Little]

Originally Posted by PunditLisa

But to pressure your ex-wife, who you already know is financially strapped, into paying half of what amounts to a really cool month long vacation for your adult son, is ridiculous.

If your son wants to go, then have HIM take the initiative into funding it. It's HIS trip, and it'll be a great time for him to learn that frivolities come with a price. He can drain his savings, he can work for it at home or through a traditional job or five, he can get an interest free loan from you, he can ask his grandparents for money...or he can cajole his father into ponying up for it.

But leave the ex-wife out of it. It isn't her responsibility.

Why not? So it's okay for her to take my money that is supposed to be spent on him and blow it on other things?

[Barkis is Willin']

It sounds like everyone agrees that the mother should be responsible for half the expenses. In that case, what's the harm in asking her what she can afford to pay? Maybe she'll shock everyone and actually contribute a couple grand, or a grand, or $500.

Would people's attitudes be different if the OP directly asked his ex what she would pay for the trip? If so, I don't get that, either. The kid is 17. If he needs money, he ought to be able to ask for it.

[PunditLisa]

Originally Posted by Omar Little

Why not? So it's okay for her to take my money that is supposed to be spent on him and blow it on other things?

You need to get over the notion that you can dictate what she does with her child support money. Assume that the 30% of her budget that you personally contribute is going 100% towards raising your child -- food, clothes, shelter, transportation. What she does with the other 70% of her income is, frankly, none of your business.

Once again, a vacation is a frivolity and is not necessary for his upbringing. You can no more force her to fund half of it than she can force you to pony up for half of his iTunes purchases.

Believe it or not, discussions on where to draw the line on frivolities is not limited to divorcees. All parents negotiate such things. For instance, we are due for cell phone upgrades, and we informed the kids that they need to start paying their own cell phone bills. 16+ is when they should be transitioning away from the parental subsidy.

[grayhairedmomma]

Originally Posted by Omar Little

The kid's got enough money in his savings to pay for most of the trip himself. He also has a job. He doesn't need to be coddled.

Originally Posted by Omar Little

He can come up with the other half whereever he wants to. But he doesn't want to foot the entire other half himself, nor do I expect him to. He plans on putting forth a $1,000 on his own, which will leave about $2 grand short. .

I'm sorry, I really don't understand why paying for this trip is something his mother has to be involved in, it sounds like he can handle paying half on his own. Why is he choosing not to? If he is not invested enough in this opportunity to spend his own money on it - why should you or his mother foot the bill for him?

My 15 year old wants to go on a similar trip next summer. It will "only" cost about $3,000. Her dad pays me child support every month and we live a comfortable life where her needs are met. I am not going to pay for half of the trip, I have other responsibilities that supercede this opportunity. My daughter has until October of this year to come up with the deposit, and should now be working on a way to pay for the rest of the trip. If her father decides to pay for any portion of the trip it is entirely between him and her.

Do you understand that even if your ex was extremely financially responsible that she would still have the right to say no to paying for any part of this trip?

[Omar Little]

So it's okay for him to ask me because I'm rich and not okay to ask her because she's a shitbag? I don't get the logic some of you people use.

And as far as my knowing she has the right to say no, of course I do. But that's not a reason for him not to ask.

And PunditLisa you are classicly reading things that aren't there. I have no notion that I can control what my ex does with the child support I pay, but I definitely can have an opinion on what is fair and what is not. What you did fail to read is that I know for a fact that she doesn't spend even half of what I give her on my son's support.

[grayhairedmomma]

Originally Posted by Sateryn76

I'll give him this idea I had for my daughter (she was too shy to do it for her trip): have your son solicit pictures from the artsy types (or anyone else) at school, and get them to give him artwork that would work for a tee-shirt. Use that artwork to open a store at CafePress, then make the store the "local" art scene for budding teen artists. They get the credit and 50% (or whatever) of the profit, and son gets the rest for his work maintaining the store. You'd get loads of orders from kids who want cool shirts, Grandma who wants a coffee mug with Sonny Boy's artwork, etc.

It would totally work if he's the type to get the word out. And it would be fantastic experience for the business world as well.

This is a great idea! My daughter and a friend are great cartoonists and this would be a great way for her to earn money for her trip. She's had so many requests for artwork that she does for free, already.

Thanks, Sateryn76!

[MsWhatsit]

Originally Posted by Omar Little

My contribution isn't contingent upon him asking his mom. He can come up with the other half whereever he wants to. But he doesn't want to foot the entire other half himself, nor do I expect him to. He plans on putting forth a $1,000 on his own, which will leave about $2 grand short. I suggested that he ask his mother how much she would be willing put in, since she is his other parent and does receive money from me for his support. Oh, the horror of that suggestion. What a horrible parent I am!

Ask her yourself. Why is your financial negotiation with your ex-wife suddenly your child's responsibility?

This may be sensitive for me because I'm the child of divorced parents who used to pull this bullshit with me all the time. My dad would carefully explain how he sent my mom $X in support money per month and how I should ask her for the money for X thing that I needed, and my mom in reverse would be doing the same thing, explaining how my dad's child support payments had never been increased since 1979 and if I wanted X thing I should ask him, and the whole time I'm thinking, why am I suddenly the one who is being expected to make grown adults be financially responsible? It's not my money, I'm not in charge of the money, I can't do anything about the fact that my mom spends money on stuff my dad doesn't approve of and my dad spends less on me than my mom would like, and I came out of it feeling like I was just a pawn in this stupid endless war they insisted on having with each other and really feeling like both of them were pretty much douchebags on this topic.

Maybe that's what you would like for your kid. I don't know. But I do think you're behaving inappropriately.

[FlyingRat]

Originally Posted by Omar Little

But to suggest that I should coddle him and spare him his dissapointment of his mom's behavior, that's on her. And yes, I do think teaching him to behave in an adult like manner and having reasonable expectations of how the adults around you behave is a good lesson for him to learn. He's not 9.

Here's a question, Omar: what do you want him to learn, by suggesting he ask his mom to chip in for the trip? And please be more specific than "having reasonable expectations of how adults behave".

You have a justifiable grievance against your ex, when it comes to support. You're frustrated, and we get that. The situation sucks. All the same, the level of disdain that comes through in your posts here is pronounced...and can you see how it's worrisome that that might bleed through when you talk to your son?

This is his mother we're talking about, after all, and (in your own words here) he's worried about their family's financial situation, and doesn't want to ask for money for that reason. He's already aware of his mom's behavior, from having been asked to chip in to household expenses (and I assume you've worked on teaching him the proper way to budget and manage money?) But he, unlike you, is dealing with the situation that is instead of dwelling over and over on the situation that should be.

To my mind, if your son has said that he isn't comfortable asking his mother for money for a frivolous trip, that's a damn responsible thing for him to have said on its own, and should be respected.

ETA: what Ms. Whatsit said, completely. Don't lower yourself in your kid's eyes by roping him into your fights.