Is a 'Real' Vulcan Grab Possible?

[Jim B.]

In Star Trek (the original series), Spock (a Vulcan) sometimes renders people unconscious by pinching their necks or shoulders. Apparently it is supposed to be some kind of nerve pinch, done because Vulcans by nature are not violent.

A question I have had at least since I was a child: Is a Vulcan grab possible? I.e., could you really render someone unconscious with just a nerve pinch (not necessarily just in the neck or shoulder)?

[standingwave]

Originally Posted by Jim B.

A question I have had at least since I was a child: Is a Vulcan grab possible? I.e., could you really render someone unconscious with just a nerve pinch (not necessarily just in the neck or shoulder)?

There are pressure points on the human body that have been exploited by various martial arts over the ages but I've never heard of that produces the effect of a Vulcan Nerve Pinch ^TM. If it existed, law enforcement, military, rape defense classes, etc. would be all over it.

[Qadgop the Mercotan]

Carotid sinus massage may result in sudden loss of consciousness due to rapid drop in blood pressure and slowed heart rate, but it's not real reliable. Or necessarily safe.

[audiobottle]

Originally Posted by Qadgop the Mercotan

Carotid sinus massage may result in sudden loss of consciousness due to rapid drop in blood pressure and slowed heart rate, but it's not real reliable. Or necessarily safe.

Yeah, that's what I was going to say. Especially not on elderly people, as they can have calcifications built up, and an aggressive massage could theoretically break some loose and give them an embolic stroke.

If you can cut them open and access their vagus nerve, you could stimulate that and cause a rapid enough drop in blood pressure to possibly knock them out. Same sort of thing that can happen to people when they see blood, or needles, or other things.

[Scumpup]

The various pressure points and such that I was instructed in how to exploit all produced pain in the subject, not unconsciousness. To render the subject unconscious required either a knock out blow or some variation on a choke hold. That neck pinch dealie would be tits if it really existed. IIRC, the reason the show introduced it was because a script called for Spock to hit a mook over the head with a phaser and that seemed to lack the requisite dignity for the character

[Skald the Rhymer]

I don't have a comment on the basic question, but the nerd in me feels compelled to point out that Vulcans are a long way from being non-violent by nature. They're non-violent by culture and strength of will.

[puddleglum]

Here is a video of wrestling legend Danny Hodge using a sleeper hold to render someone unconscious, it happens very quickly but not quite as instantaneously as a Vulcan nerve pinch.

[Gagundathar]

It was originated (as was the Vulcan salute) by Leonard Nimoy.
In Season 1, episode 4, The Enemy Within, Spock was supposed to render James Kirk's evil transporter twin unconscious. Nimoy decided during the filming that Spock wouldn't use some crude method like striking his opponent over the head with a blunt object and suggested that Vulcans had the ability to project their psychic energy through their fingertips which when applied to a nerve plexus would cause unconsciousness.

[John DiFool]

My WAG is that it also required some mystical energies and mental telepathy and whatnot to work, so humans probably couldn't pull it off. I'm not sure if that was directly addressed in any canonical (or even non-canonical) works.

As Gagundathar just intimated.

[Ephemera]

Except that there are instances of non-psionics mastering the technique, including Data in The Next Generation.

[Skald the Rhymer]

Originally Posted by John DiFool

My WAG is that it also required some mystical energies and mental telepathy and whatnot to work, so humans probably couldn't pull it off. I'm not sure if that was directly addressed in any canonical (or even non-canonical) works.

As Gagundathar just intimated.

I always thought so as well, as Kirk mentioned that he wished he could do that, and Spock replied that he had tried to teach him how and repeatedly failed. But then there's that NextGen episode where Data was able to do it.

[holmes]

C'mon guys, Data's Data. If anyone could do it, it would be him.

[standingwave]

Originally Posted by John DiFool

My WAG is that it also required some mystical energies and mental telepathy and whatnot to work, so humans probably couldn't pull it off. I'm not sure if that was directly addressed in any canonical (or even non-canonical) works.

I seem to remember that Picard had learned it so apparently in the ST universe, exceptional humans could master it. Ah, here it is: http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Vulc...by_non-Vulcans (It was due to having once mind melded with Spock's father.) Still, Data (the android) was able to learn it, which would seem to rule out telepathy, etc. as a requirement.

[Skald the Rhymer]

Originally Posted by standingwave

I seem to remember that Picard had learned it so apparently in the ST universe, exceptional humans could master it. Ah, here it is: http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Vulc...by_non-Vulcans (It was due to having once mind melded with Spock's father.) Still, Data (the android) was able to learn it, which would seem to rule out telepathy, etc. as a requirement.

Especially since the most powerful of Betazed's telepaths could not read him. (I don't count it as significant that Deanna Troi couldn't.)

Hmm. I also seem to recall McCoy trying and failing to do it while he had Spock's consciousness in his noggin.

[holmes]

Originally Posted by standingwave

Still, Data (the android) was able to learn it, which would seem to rule out telepathy, etc. as a requirement.

Perhaps Data's positronic brain, mimics telepathic signals when he does the nerve pitch and also prevents telepaths from reading him due to its foreignness.

[Chronos]

C'mon, a positronic brain producing telepathy? No real science fiction author could take an idea like that seriously.

[Mr. Excellent]

Originally Posted by Skald the Rhymer

I don't have a comment on the basic question, but the nerd in me feels compelled to point out that Vulcans are a long way from being non-violent by nature. They're non-violent by culture and strength of will.

And also by virtue of Federation membership; the other members engage in violence on their behalf when needed. They're basically Iceland.

[holmes]

Originally Posted by Chronos

C'mon, a positronic brain producing telepathy? No real science fiction author could take an idea like that seriously.

What's telepathy besides some form of energy manipulation? It's not magic, it has to work using the energy that the brain produces in some way. Why couldn't a positronic brain manipulate the brain's energy in close contact?

It doesn't have to on the level of full on telepathy, like the Betazeds or even the level of the Vulcan mind meld, but in physical contact with a person and a little positronic 'push', why not?

We see him do it, so either it's not a telepathic thing, in which case anyone with enough training can to it or Data has to be able on some limited level to mimic telepathy and we know Data is a very good mimic.

[holmes]

Damnit Chronos you got me!

[Shodan]

Originally Posted by Qadgop the Mercotan

Carotid sinus massage may result in sudden loss of consciousness due to rapid drop in blood pressure and slowed heart rate, but it's not real reliable. Or necessarily safe.

Wouldn't it have to be bilateral, not just one-handed like Spock did it?

AIUI, many judo choke holds work partially by pressure on the carotid sinus, and they are pretty reliable. That is, I never met anyone who didn't go out pretty quick once the hold was sunk in, but that may not be what you are talking about. And those are always applied bilaterally, such that there is pressure on both sides of the neck.

My first exposure to the idea of pressing on a nerve and knocking someone out is not Spock, but Doc Savage. He was supposedly such a brilliant surgeon that he knew how to press nerves to knock out, or in one case temporarily paralyze, the bad guys.

Regards,
Shodan

[audiobottle]

Occluding both carotid arteries is different from a carotid sinus massage. If you block, or at least substantially diminish, flow through the the carotids you are effectively starving the brain of blood, and that can definitely knock somebody out. It's one of the reasons they tell you to only massage one carotid sinus at a time.
The carotid sinuses, on the other hand, has baroreceptors (pressure sensors) that act through a reflex loop to decrease (when an increase in blood pressure is sensed) or increase (when a decrease in blood pressures is sensed) heart rate. This can cause unconsciousness in people who have a hyperactive response.

[limegreen]

I know I've put my younger brother on the floor in a fair amount of pain by trying to replicate the nerve pinch.

[Saltire]

Originally Posted by limegreen

I know I've put my younger brother on the floor in a fair amount of pain by trying to replicate the nerve pinch.

I don't believe you. No younger brother would think anything done by their older brother was 'fair.'

[limegreen]

*sister* he was always the gullible one of the family, as evidenced by the peeing on the electric fence episode.

[The Tao's Revenge]

scooped...

[The Tao's Revenge]

Originally Posted by holmes

What's telepathy besides some form of energy manipulation? It's not magic, it has to work using the energy that the brain produces in some way. Why couldn't a positronic brain manipulate the brain's energy in close contact?

It doesn't have to on the level of full on telepathy, like the Betazeds or even the level of the Vulcan mind meld, but in physical contact with a person and a little positronic 'push', why not?

We see him do it, so either it's not a telepathic thing, in which case anyone with enough training can to it or Data has to be able on some limited level to mimic telepathy and we know Data is a very good mimic.

There does seem to be some potential for AI and biological intelligence to psychically connect. Remember Spock successfully mind melded with both V'ger, and Nomad.

Unlike Nomad, Data is advanced enough he can take a paradox. Hell he might have ignored his very own ethical programming and attempted to shot a man with a Varon T Disrupter, at one point and then lied about it. That guy had it coming. Imagine Nomad attempting that decision.

[Skald the Rhymer]

Originally Posted by The Tao's Revenge

There does seem to be some potential for AI and biological intelligence to psychically connect. Remember Spock successfully mind melded with both V'ger, and Nomad.

Unlike Nomad, Data is advanced enough he can take a paradox. Hell he might have ignored his very own ethical programming and attempted to shot a man with a Varon T Disrupter, at one point and then lied about it. That guy had it coming. Imagine Nomad attempting that decision.

Data did not ignore his ethical programming by deciding to shoot the collector, whose name was Fajo if I recall. His rule against killing cannot be absolute; otherwise he could not serve in a combat post on a starship. He recognized that he had made an error earlier in not killing Fajo. That is, he had treated his imprisonment as a simple crime, when in fact it was more akin to being a prisoner of war. Once he put Fajo in the correct category, he knew what to do.