Elementary: New CBS Sherlock Series [Season 1 thread]

[DMark]

I have been seeing ads for the upcoming Sherlock Holmes spin off, "Elementary", that CBS will be airing in the Fall.

In this show, it looks like Sherlock is coming to NYC for rehab, along with his trusted friend/assistant - Dr. Joan Watson, to be played by Lucy Liu.

I like Lucy Liu and think she is quite talented, but call me a purist - I don't like the idea of a female Dr. Watson. This sounds more like Castle on drugs than Sherlock Holmes.

Oh well, I guess I will have to wait to see what happens - I might be wrong, but I don't think this is going to be quite the hit as the new, excellent BBC series, Sherlock.

[Bridget Burke]

Gosh, what a coincidence!

Not really. CBS approached the team who made Sherlock for assistance with a US remake. They were rebuffed. The UK team is rather busy on several projects--& remember the US version of Coupling, Steven Moffat's excellent show now streaming in Netflix. Moffat is not happy; his legal team will ensure that none of their innovations show up on CBS.

However, CBS is quite free to emulate the excellent writing, amazing acting & first rate production values that made Sherlock so delightful. We shall see. (Well, I'll have to read a few rave reviews before watching.)

(In another remarkable coincidence, Jonny Lee Miller, Elementary's star, shared the stage last year with Sherlock star Benedict Cumberbatch. The play was Frankenstein & they alternated playing The Doctor & The Monster.)

[The Hamster King]

It looks horrid.

[njtt]

So Wikipedia has articles about crappy TV shows that have not even actually aired now, does it?

[Dewey Finn]

Why shouldn't Wikipedia have an article about an upcoming series? All of the references are from February and March of this year; the past in other words.

In fact, here are 161 articles about upcoming series.

[Ichini Sanshigo]

Tumblr is already all a-twitter over the series, mostly a battle between people who think the trailer looks interesting and Sherlock fans who don't understand the meaning of the word "adaptation". The publicity can only help, though the fervor will likely be faded by the time of the fall premier.

I think the show looks fairly interesting, and since I love AUs in general and all things Sherlock Holmes in specific, I'll be watching. The relocation to NY has me raising a metaphorical eyebrow, and I kinda wish Lucy Liu was playing Sherlock, and I've always found CBS shows to be on the boring side, but I think this may actually not suck.

[TommyTutone]

The pacing, the wit, the writing of the BBC versions is going to be tough to capture on CBS. The biggest hindrance is going to be the commercials, and along with it, the mini cliffhangers that invariably lead to said commercials. Plus, 90 minutes of Sherlock versus 44 minutes of Elementary will lose a lot of depth. Granted cases can continue between episodes, but again, you end up losing the pacing this way.

I cannot help but think the CBS version will end up a pale comparison.

[Loach]

I like Jonny Lee Miller so I'll probably give it a shot. But the Cumberbatch version is my favorite of all time and will be hard to come close to.

[DMark]

I understand the word "adaption" and, as mentioned, I really like Lucy Liu.

My problem is that, where the UK version takes it a bit further and hints that Sherlock might be a tad Gay, the US version has to flip it and make sure any potential sparks between Sherlock and Watson would be construed as a hetero love interest. Who knows, maybe this will be "cute" and give the series an entirely new spin?

But some classics really don't need to be heterosexualized to gain a wider audience.

Would we need a female Sundance Kid in any remake of Butch Cassidy?
Should Tonto be a princess to have the Lone Ranger not be so lonely?
Should Huck Finn be a girl - the tomboy for Tom Sawyer?

Sure, I will tune in, and yes, I love a good mystery/crime solving duo regardless of their gender and sparks or lack of. But this looks like the third CBS attempt to make Watson a female love interest of sorts, and the other two series didn't exactly score big in the annuls of TV history. We'll see what happens this time around.

[conway]

Lucy Liu was great in a season-long arc on Southland. I hope this turns out well.

[Loach]

Originally Posted by DMark

My problem is that, where the UK version takes it a bit further and hints that Sherlock might be a tad Gay, the US version has to flip it and make sure any potential sparks between Sherlock and Watson would be construed as a hetero love interest. Who knows, maybe this will be "cute" and give the series an entirely new spin?

But some classics really don't need to be heterosexualized to gain a wider audience.

Would we need a female Sundance Kid in any remake of Butch Cassidy?
Should Tonto be a princess to have the Lone Ranger not be so lonely?
Should Huck Finn be a girl - the tomboy for Tom Sawyer?

Sure, I will tune in, and yes, I love a good mystery/crime solving duo regardless of their gender and sparks or lack of. But this looks like the third CBS attempt to make Watson a female love interest of sorts, and the other two series didn't exactly score big in the annuls of TV history. We'll see what happens this time around.

I might sound like an idiot because I have not been able to see season 2 of Sherlock (its on the DVR). But it seemed clear in season 1 that he was asexual and mostly oblivious to such things. The Robert Downey version is clearly hetero. I have no problem with them going anyway with it. But regardless of Watson's sex, I hope they don't try for a Moonlighting thing. And regardless of the oreintation of Holmes, I hope they leave the Holmes/Watson relationship asexual.

[BMalion]

Needs some Larry Hagman.

[twickster]

It's a sad commentary on the contents of my brain, but my main knowledge of Jonny Lee Miller is that he was married to Angelina Jolie for a while.

That said, I'll probably check it out, though my expectations are low.

[teela brown]

Originally Posted by Loach

I might sound like an idiot because I have not been able to see season 2 of Sherlock (its on the DVR).

Dude, you've a treat coming. I wish I was watching it for the first time.

I'm un-enthused about the upcoming American version. I suppose they could surprise me and do a terrific job, but I'm not hopeful.

[Tangent]

I don't have high hopes, but I'll give it a try at least.

[Simplicio]

Between House, Sherlock and the Downey movies, we're getting kind of close to saturation with Sherlock adaptations. But we'll see, maybe they'll find something different to do with the character (beyond gender flipping Watson).

[teela brown]

Is there a trailer connected with any of the links upthread? If not, here it is.

[Maserschmidt]

I liked the trailer. I also really like the BBC series, but think the RDJ version is awful...so we'll see how this pans out.

[Khadaji]

Well, I'm a Sherlock fan and Lucy Lui is smokin' hot. I'll give it a try.

[Baron Greenback]

I'm quite looking forward to stealing this from across the Atlantic. It's a decent cast, and it's not like the Holmes and Watson thingy hasn't already been twisted about for many years.

[Justin_Bailey]

Originally Posted by DMark

My problem is that, where the UK version takes it a bit further and hints that Sherlock might be a tad Gay, the US version has to flip it and make sure any potential sparks between Sherlock and Watson would be construed as a hetero love interest. Who knows, maybe this will be "cute" and give the series an entirely new spin?

Nobody knows how "heterosexualized" this version of Sherlock is (but dude, really? Heterosexualized?), but Watson becoming a woman had more to do with Moffat threatening a lawsuit (even though such a thing would be totally baseless as Sherlock is in the public domain*) than any relationship storyline.

* And I realize that Moffat's version isn't in the public domain, but "modern day Sherlock" can't be copyrighted.

Finally (Sherlock: Season 2 spoilers ho!)...

SPOILER:

Sherlock is revealed to be straight (or at least completely infatuated with Irene Adler) in this version too, so your whole argument is moot.

[StGermain]

I'm so into the BBC's Sherlock that I can't see myself getting equally involved with this new show. Frankly I haven't felt this strongly about a TV show in a long, long time. I want to stop people I work with and say "Have you seen this show???". It's killing me that it'll probably be another year before we get another measly three episodes.

I will probably schedule Elementary on my DVR and wait to see Dope opinion.

StG

[Candyman74]

I'm waiting for the British versions of Billy the Kid ("Billy", set in Dorset), Calamity Jane ("Calamity" set in Newcastle), Davy Crockett ("Davy", set in a small village in Cornwall).

I'd love to hear pitches for "John Henry", "Webby the Webster", "Wyatt", and others.

[GuanoLad]

Seems more like a darker Monk.

[Simplicio]

Originally Posted by Justin_Bailey

Nobody knows how "heterosexualized" this version of Sherlock is (but dude, really? Heterosexualized?), but Watson becoming a woman had more to do with Moffat threatening a lawsuit (even though such a thing would be totally baseless as Sherlock is in the public domain*) than any relationship storyline.

* And I realize that Moffat's version isn't in the public domain, but "modern day Sherlock" can't be copyrighted.

Yea, I love the BBC's version, but their muttering about lawsuits regarding the CBS version is pretty eye-rolling. Part of the fun of the show is how closely it follows the original material, albeit in a modern setting.

If Doyle had lived today, Edgar Allen Poe probably would've sued him for copying his A. Dupin character and there'd be no Sherlock.

[Loach]

Originally Posted by GuanoLad

Seems more like a darker Monk.

Nope. Thats Perception.

[GuanoLad]

Originally Posted by Loach

Nope. Thats Perception.

Hmm. Starts in a couple of weeks. Might just check that one out.

[Tangent]

Originally Posted by Loach

Nope. Thats Perception.

Rachel Leigh Cook? I'm in!

[Nom_de_Plume]

CBS already has a modern-day Holmes adaptation with a female Watson. It's called The Mentalist.

[Tangent]

I thought The Mentalist was a Psych adaptation with a female Gus.

[Lantern]

With the right actors and writers I think the Sherlock Holmes concept could work in practically any setting. You could probably do a great Sherlock Holmes in King's Landing. You could do a Sherlock Holmes in the Stars Wars Universe. It's all about the execution so I would wait before making up my mind about this one. I rather like the idea of a female Watson. One of my all-time favorite films: His Girl Friday was a remake where a male character became female to great effect.

[Candyman74]

Originally Posted by Simplicio

Yea, I love the BBC's version, but their muttering about lawsuits regarding the CBS version is pretty eye-rolling. Part of the fun of the show is how closely it follows the original material, albeit in a modern setting.

If Doyle had lived today, Edgar Allen Poe probably would've sued him for copying his A. Dupin character and there'd be no Sherlock.

The lawsuit talk was perfectly valid.

The American company didn't want to make their own version, they wanted to adapt the BBC version and were refused. They then immediately announced their version.

Moffat and Virtue simply said - rightly - that if their scripts etc were used as was originally requested (and refused), the BBC would likely come down like a ton of hammers. As they should.

Turns out they're doing something different. But what they're doing now us definitely not what they originally said they wanted to do.

[GuanoLad]

Originally Posted by Lantern

You could probably do a great Sherlock Holmes in King's Landing.

The Name of the Rose. There's even a line: "Elementary, my dear Adso."

[dropzone]

Originally Posted by Loach

Nope. Thats Perception.

Hey, isn't that the other gay guy from the "Jack and Karen Show?"

I'll give "Elementary" a shot.

[tellyworth]

Originally Posted by Justin_Bailey

* And I realize that Moffat's version isn't in the public domain, but "modern day Sherlock" can't be copyrighted.

It's a bit more complicated than that. Two or three Sherlock Holmes stories are still under copyright in the USA. And copyright in the characters consists of the entire body of work, so the characters Holmes and Watson are not quite in the public domain yet. I believe you can sort of sidestep that by basing your adaptation only on the contents of the public domain books.

The BBC can certainly copyright their modern day innovations - their scripts and character innovations are just as coyprightable as any modern story. What they can't do is stop anyone else from adapting the original public domain material.

[mage-girl]

Didn't suck as badly as I'd been encouraged to believe.

What did you all think?

[LVBoPeep]

I think it's on too late...I have it DVR'd scheduled, will check back in tomorrow .

Sick Boy as Sherlock... gotta say I'm intrigued.

[twickster]

I liked it -- good chemistry between the two of them. Esp. liked that Watson isn't a buffoon. I think this could turn out to be a keeper.

[Simplicio]

It was alright. I'd probably like it more if it weren't for the BBC's Sherlock, as it isn't as good and its hard not to compare the two.

As it is, it was kind of dark (they play up Sherlock's drug addiction, Watson has a tortured past, there isn't much in the way of humor), there wasn't much chemistry between the two leads and (like most of the recent Holmes adaptations) they dial the detectives abrasive side up to 11.

[randwill]

I've never watched "The Mentalist", but I have the feeling that people who do will think that "Elementary" is riding on the former show's coat tails. Although I expect that "The Mentalist" owes quite a bit to Arthur Conan Doyle.

[mage-girl]

I got kind of a "House" vibe from it. But then, I believe House was based (loosely) on Sherlock Holmes, so...

I do wish the two actors had better chemistry. Not sexual, just--more. It's kind of pivotal to the overall Sherlock Holmes concept. Maybe it'll develop with time?

Whoever is doing Lucy's make-up needs to be hit repeatedly with something. She's an attractive woman, and the make-up seems to be making her look uglier. Maybe that's the goal?

Jonny Lee Miller is not quite my flavor of eye candy. Sigh. He's not a bad-looking guy, either. He is rather amusing though.

[bup]

I liked it.

I haven't seen the BBC series, which I understand is excellent, so I wasn't comparing it.

The mystery itself wasn't perfect (neither were Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's, but that's no excuse), but I like the leads, and the mysteries can improve.

[DMark]

I was one who was skeptical (and even started a thread about it when I first heard of this show way back when) and wasn't thrilled with the idea of a female Dr. Watson.

However, this show has little to do with the (much better) Sherlock series from BBC, and nothing at all to do with the (also much better) Robert Downey Jr.'s film versions. It is more of a "very loosely based upon" concept of Sherlock Holmes. Kind of a Castle/Mentalist/Psych/Monk morph that works OK on its own.

I did read a review that claimed they made it abundantly clear in the first episode that there would be no love interest between Holmes and Watson - I didn't see that. (I assumed Dr. Watson would be an open Lesbian or something.) I hope it is true that they won't play any love angle between the two of them - that would ruin the story - but so far there is no chemistry between the two of them, so I guess we don't have to worry about that happening anytime soon at least.

I didn't hate the first episode as I thought I might, and will probably continue to watch. Still, I don't know why they felt the need to make Dr. Watson a woman. Don't get me wrong - I really like Lucy Liu - but as long as there is no sexual chemistry between them anyway, what was the point of making Dr. Watson a woman this time?

[twickster]

Originally Posted by DMark

I didn't hate the first episode as I thought I might, and will probably continue to watch. Still, I don't know why they felt the need to make Dr. Watson a woman. Don't get me wrong - I really like Lucy Liu - but as long as there is no sexual chemistry between them anyway, what was the point of making Dr. Watson a woman this time?

Why not?

[bup]

Watson has been a woman in at least one movie before.

Maybe they did it to get buzz, or maybe they did it to jumpstart the writers' brains.

[faithfool]

I agree that Lucy needs a better makeup job. Sheesh. But overall, I really liked the vibe Johnny Lee Miller pulled off and the concept was interesting. I'll definitely keep watching. At least until they cancel it.

[twickster]

Originally Posted by faithfool

I agree that Lucy needs a better makeup job. Sheesh. But overall, I really liked the vibe Johnny Lee Miller pulled off and the concept was interesting. I'll definitely keep watching. At least until they cancel it.

I don't think they will. They've obviously been promoting the hell out of the show, and unlike Revolution -- another much-hyped show -- it doesn't blow.

It's got IMHO a different vibe from the BBC series, which in many ways is more tied to canon, albeit in an often-winking way. This has a much looser connection ("I googled it -- not everything is deducible") and clearly they're not taking the plots directly from Conan Doyle.

So, yeah, people who love the BBC series to the exclusion of all other versions are not gonna like it -- but for the rest of us, it's entertaining.

And I do think there's chemistry between the two leads -- not sexual chemistry, thank god, but certainly a connection. The scene when Holmes got the woman all pissed off and Watson made him leave, then came out with the info they needed .... liked it. Liked it a lot. Not the traditional Holmes-Watson dynamic, but a good basis for some story-telling.

[well he's back]

I'm pleasantly surprised by how well Jonny Lee Miller is in this show. He is a fun actor to watch.

[DMark]

Originally Posted by twickster

Why not?

OK, you make your point that there is no reason Watson cannot be a woman, or no reason that Sherlock could not be a black, blind guy with one leg and have a Russian accent.

But if you are going to play switcheroo with iconic characters, you would think there might be some compelling reason to do so.

Again, I really do like Lucy Liu and have no problems with women being lead characters - really - but I just wonder if there was a reason to do so other than, "...just because...".

[twickster]

Originally Posted by DMark

But if you are going to play switcheroo with iconic characters, you would think there might be some compelling reason to do so.

As I was trying to indicate, I think it's part of the "we're doing a nontraditional version of this" vibe of the whole show.