Sign of the Times: More Pianos are Being Dumped; too costly to maintain

[WordMan]

Pay-to-see article in the NY Times here.

A poignant quote from the article:

Pianos consist of hundreds of pounds of metal, wood and intricate machinery able to channel Bach, Mozart and Beethoven, along with honky-tonk, “Happy Birthday” and holiday tunes. It is strange to think of them as disposable as tissues. Yet economic and cultural forces have made many used pianos, with the exception of Steinways and a few other high-end brands, prone to being jettisoned.

With thousands of moving parts, pianos are expensive to repair, requiring long hours of labor by skilled technicians whose numbers are diminishing. Excellent digital pianos and portable keyboards can cost as little as several hundred dollars. Low-end imported pianos have improved remarkably in quality and can be had for under $3,000.

So it is not all bad news: there remains an interest in keyboard-triggered instruments and music. It is just seems there is a large population of "middle class" pianos - i.e., not high-end Steinways, etc. - that have been replaced via technological innovation. And so the lower-end pianos are just getting junked.

Jeez, it sounds like the economy and unemployment: There is a downturn, and so companies that are hurting for profits are trimming the parts of their workforce that have been rendered less valuable due to the tech innovations that push productivity...

[gotpasswords]

On the plus side, if you want a piano, Craigslist is full of listings of free pianos.

[Broomstick]

I grew up playing an acoustic piano and while I do enjoy the instrument my electric piano takes up less room, is lighter and easier to move when necessary, and best of all, never needs to be tuned. Much as I love the look, feel, and sound of the old fashioned acoustic variety my electronic one is superior for many practical reasons. It pains me to see old, restorable pianos junked but I understand why people choose not to fix them up.

[aceplace57]

Times have changed. Remember what Holly Hunter did for a piano?

[Malthus]

Originally Posted by Broomstick

I grew up playing an acoustic piano and while I do enjoy the instrument my electric piano takes up less room, is lighter and easier to move when necessary, and best of all, never needs to be tuned. Much as I love the look, feel, and sound of the old fashioned acoustic variety my electronic one is superior for many practical reasons. It pains me to see old, restorable pianos junked but I understand why people choose not to fix them up.

This.

When my kid started piano lessons (perhaps the ultimate example of middle-class activity ), getting an electronic keyboard rather than an acoustic was a no-brainer. Easy to move, easy to set up, takes up less room, sounds pretty good, slightly higher end ones have weighted keyboards, no tuning required, cheaper, etc.

[Barrett Bonden]

The last time I had my upright piano tuned, the gentleman who tuned it warned me that it wouldn't hold its tune for long, and that fixing the board would be more expensive than simply replacing it. He told me that 100 years ago, pianos were built to last 100 years. My parents' ~ century-old Wurlitzer spinet, which had belonged to my great-grandmother's sister, has some minor cosmetic damage but is still in fine condition and can be tuned. My own piano had belonged to my grandmother and is about fifty years old. As I mentioned, the tuner said it is at the end of its consistently tuneful life.

The tuner told me that modern pianos(*) may last just ten or twenty years. That makes me sad.

*Ordinary uprights, not your high end Steinways or Baldwins.

[Aeris]

I don't really see this as a new thing or a sign of the times. Pianos have always been expensive. They are a luxury item with highly complex moving parts. I'm reading A Tree Grows in Brooklyn right now and the people that lived in their apartment before them left their piano because it was so expensive to move. The book is set in the early 1900s. I feel like saying people getting rid of pianos is a sign of the times is like saying "woah people are trading in their Ferraris for Fords, this is a terrible economy!" Besides, I think we should be encouraged that people are still purchasing pianos at all, be they keyboards or Steinways. Either way, it's a luxury item with the intention of making music. You don't need an expensive piano to make beautiful music. When people stop making music altogether THEN I'll worry.

[Jamicat]

I tried to tune a piano...once...

SPOILER:

...It's just like a guitar with a few more strings, how hard could it be? -.-

[Fear Itself]

Look on the bright side; at least there will be no shortage of pianos to be flung with trebuchets.

[gaffa]

Originally Posted by Broomstick

I grew up playing an acoustic piano and while I do enjoy the instrument my electric piano takes up less room, is lighter and easier to move when necessary, and best of all, never needs to be tuned. Much as I love the look, feel, and sound of the old fashioned acoustic variety my electronic one is superior for many practical reasons. It pains me to see old, restorable pianos junked but I understand why people choose not to fix them up.

I'd say that for most people an electronic piano is going to be better. You can buy samples of any model piano you wish, each note carefully recorded multiple times, with varying velocity, pedal and stick. Who could possibly afford to own a Bechstein D-280 concert grand, a Steinway D concert grand, a Bosendorfer 290 concert grand, and a Yamaha C7 grand - let alone have the space for them? But you can buy samples of all for for $500

I can assure you that few rock, pop or country performers bother to carry around an acoustic piano anymore. The samples are just too good, and a piano sampled in a studio or empty concert hall is going to sound a lot better than using any microphone technique possible on a stage. And being able to switch from one sound to another is too tempting.

[Elendil's Heir]

Originally Posted by Jamicat

I tried to tune a piano...once... ....

You can tune a piano, but you can't tuna fish.

[Tangent]

Originally Posted by Fear Itself

Look on the bright side; at least there will be no shortage of pianos to be flung with trebuchets.

Man, that's such a waste--they really should have lit it on fire before flinging it.

[Washoe]

Organs too. You can’t even give them away. My wife had an organ in the house that somebody gave her in the early 1980s. When we sold the house and it came time to move, I begged her for weeks beforehand to let me discard it. She finally caved. Damn near killed myself trying to get it out of the house and into the driveway where I assumed I could easily dissemble the goddamn thing and throw it the trash piecemeal. It took me two freakin’ days with a sledgehammer to get that thing apart. And the capacitor was about half the size of a shoebox. I was terrified of the thing. And to make matters worse, I just found out that there’s another one that’s even bigger in her father’s house that we’re going to inherit when he croaks. And it’s on the second story. I’m just going to make a plywood ramp and slide that bitch right out the window and pray to almighty Og that it breaks into a million easy pieces when it hits the ground.

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

I'll abandon my acoustic piano the day I abandon my LPs.

So, never.


mmm

[jabiru]

This makes me cry. I always wanted to learn piano as a child but was never allowed to. When we were first married, I'd have loved to have a piano in the house but we couldn't afford one, even second hand.

Finally got my piano and started lessons. Now arthritis has kicked in and I'm finding it painful to play.

[Maastricht]

Another big advantage of digital pianos is that they come with headphones. No more listening to kids doing repetitive exercises.
The digital possibilities are endless; nog just the quality of sound, but also the digital possibilities for tutoring. I expect a fully digital software piano tutoring programme about next week.

But yeah, it is the same in the Netherlands. All of the Goodwill stores I frequent (at least the ones that haul their stuff in, not the ones that rely on people bringing stuff) have pianos standing there for 50 bucks or less.

[Maastricht]

Originally Posted by jabiru

Finally got my piano and started lessons. Now arthritis has kicked in and I'm finding it painful to play.

Wouldn't a digital piano have adjustable weight to the keys? You could set them all lighter, and the keys closer together, and still play. Maybe even a fully digital keyboard on your Ipad. I've seen such programmes exist.

[hogarth]

Haven't pianos always been one of those items that have flooded the second hand market? That certainly seemed to be the case when I was a kid in the '80s; people buy a piano so that their kids can take piano lessons, then pass it on for a song to the next customer.

[pulykamell]

Originally Posted by Maastricht

Wouldn't a digital piano have adjustable weight to the keys?

Not that I've ever seen. I'm sure there must be some that exist, but I've never come across one. Here's a thread on Piano World discussing why it's problematic.

[ftg]

We'll be facing this issue with our next move.

Bought a spinet when we moved here since Mrs. FtG played and I like to goof around on it. We had hoped the kids would take up an interest but they never did.

The last time it was seriously used was 2 Christmases ago for a few carols.

Who knows how we're going to get rid of it.

We had a really old full upright before that and sold it for a couple hundred bucks since it wasn't worth moving. Felt like we let it go too cheap. Now I'd be happy to get any real money for the new one.

Yeah, everybody had pianos back when I was kid. Grandparents, aunts, etc. And they got played. There was nothing like watching your 80 year old grandma sit down and crank out tunes from the 30s and 40s from memory.

Plus, piano benches are where you sat kids for pictures.

[Le Ministre de l'au-delà]

That article depressed me more than words can say.

A digital piano is a poor substitute for a real piano, and for certain music, just isn't up to the job. First off, there's no sympathetic resonance with a digital keyboard; all the sustain pedal does is extend the length of time that a note causes the speaker to vibrate. Playing an 'A' doesn't cause all the 'A' strings, plus the 'E's, 'C#'s, 'G's etc. in the harmonic series to resonate along. I remember working on a Brahms waltz on a Boesendorfer - there were only three notes in the opening A Major chord and it was marked 'p'. Gently playing the three notes to the bottom of the key made this beautiful, lush resonance that was unmatched by anything a digital could have done.

They have made great advances in getting a natural feel and weight to the keys, but digital keyboards are still not very good at being able to bring out one specific voice out of all the keys. It's fine if you're just playing chords - Bach sounds like an undifferentiated mess.

(When I sang 'Carmina Burana' in Sault Sainte Marie, it was the second part of a larger concert which included a stunning performance of the Brahms 'Intermezzo in A Major', op. 118, #2. When we did the second performance in a school somewhere near Sault Sainte Marie, Michigan, the piece was cut from the program. I said to the pianist what a shame that was, because he had played so wonderfully the night before. He said "Thank you, but all they have here is a digital keyboard and there'd be no point. Here, listen..." He then played me a bit and he was right - it sounded like shit.)

[Broomstick]

95% of the piano playing public is not going to be able to hear the difference. And that same 95% is never going to be able to afford a Boesendorfer. I've been playing piano over 40 years and I've never been within 10 feet of a Boesendorfer.

If you want to keep pianos accessible to the masses you're going to have to settle for electric. If you refuse that option, then there will be almost no one playing within a generation.

[Le Ministre de l'au-delà]

Broomstick - that's why I found the article depressing. Once again, we are valuing convenience over quality.

[Malthus]

Originally Posted by Le Ministre de l'au-delà

Broomstick - that's why I found the article depressing. Once again, we are valuing convenience over quality.

There is no doubt that when it comes to playing Brahms 'Intermezzo in A Major', op. 118, #2 in front of a concert audience, you want an acoustic.

However, when it comes to interesting a 6 year old in the joy of learning music, an electronic keyboard will do - and, given space and (yes) convenience considerations, it is in fact the better tool for the job.

How many pianos are bought for concert pianists, versus families with kids wanting to play? It is the latter group I think that is mostly shedding acoustics, according to the article - not high-end pianos, but (probably) out-of-tune relatively cheap pianos used by middle class families to prop up family pictures and for the kids to learn to play. They probably sound *worse* than electronic keyboards, because most families do not regularly tune them, and they were cheap to begin with.

If we restrict piano-playing to only those able to afford to keep and tune acoustic pianos, the result will be less piano-playing. To my mind, this development isn't depressing at all - the public is still interested in piano - playing, after all. If and when those kids take the pursuit further, there will always be a market for high-end acoustic pianos.

[gaffa]

Originally Posted by Le Ministre de l'au-delà

A digital piano is a poor substitute for a real piano, and for certain music, just isn't up to the job. First off, there's no sympathetic resonance with a digital keyboard; all the sustain pedal does is extend the length of time that a note causes the speaker to vibrate. Playing an 'A' doesn't cause all the 'A' strings, plus the 'E's, 'C#'s, 'G's etc. in the harmonic series to resonate along.

When an "A" is played on a sampled piano, it is a recording of that "A" being played on the original piano. It is a "real piano", every bit as real as any other recording of that piano. It's not like they isolated the A string from the rest of the original instrument - all the rest of the piano is adding exactly what it adds any other time that key is struck. And you are wrong about how sustain works with a good digital sample. They record each note with many different levels of velocity, with varying levels of sustain pedal.

It sounds like you are conflating the cheapest digital pianos with the excellent sampled pianos currently available.

As a sound engineer, I have to say that for virtually all non-classical purposes, a good sampled piano will deliver better results. They are recorded in excellent studios using the best example available of that particular instrument, perfectly tuned. If you can afford to pay for the studio time, and if you can find a studio with an excellent instrument, and hire a tuner, and luck into an engineer who really knows how to record piano - then you will get equivalent results. But with a sampled piano, you can record onto your laptop in your bedroom, concentrating on performance, rather than on how much the studio, tuner and engineer is costing you. The $500 cost of the best sample available is going to be less than the cost of a single hour of the studio, tuner and engineer.

[squeegee]

nm

[Le Ministre de l'au-delà]

Originally Posted by gaffa

It sounds like you are conflating the cheapest digital pianos with the excellent sampled pianos currently available.

No, in fact, I'm contrasting the behaviour of my Yamaha CP300 and my Kawai RX-3. Even my kids prefer to play the real piano - the digital is there for making funny noises as far as they're concerned.

[Little Nemo]

Pianos aren't being replaced by electronic keyboards. They were replaced by radios, televisions, and stereo systems.

People used to entertain themselves by playing music. We don't do that anymore - we watch recorded performances instead of performing. And when we stop playing music, we stopped needing musical instruments.

[Broomstick]

Originally Posted by Le Ministre de l'au-delà

Broomstick - that's why I found the article depressing. Once again, we are valuing convenience over quality.

You're valuing quality at an elitist level that excludes the vast majority of people who have any interest in piano playing at all.

Me, I think enabling as many as possible to play people, even at a low level, will help keep the masses interested enough in piano music to keep the elite concert pianists employed, rather than discarded as useless and unnecessary.

[Fear Itself]

Originally Posted by Little Nemo

And when we stop playing music, we stopped needing musical instruments.

So where does the recorded music come from?

[hogarth]

Originally Posted by Fear Itself

So where does the recorded music come from?

Professionals rather than amateurs, I suppose.

[squeegee]

Originally Posted by Le Ministre de l'au-delà

No, in fact, I'm contrasting the behaviour of my Yamaha CP300 and my Kawai RX-3. Even my kids prefer to play the real piano - the digital is there for making funny noises as far as they're concerned.

I have to agree with Ministre here, specifically regarding using the sustain pedal when playing -- the sounds I've heard when doing so with a digital piano have sounded entirely unconvincing to my ears, compared to even a cheap spinet's sustain sound.

[gaffa]

Originally Posted by Le Ministre de l'au-delà

No, in fact, I'm contrasting the behaviour of my Yamaha CP300 and my Kawai RX-3. Even my kids prefer to play the real piano - the digital is there for making funny noises as far as they're concerned.

I wasn't able to current price on a Kawai RX-3, but this page puts the price of a 2005 one at $25,290, at least twelve times more expensive than the Yamaha. I'm disappointed that you didn't address any of the more substantive points from my post about recording quality.

There is a tendency the value the more expensive item just because it is more expensive. But your Yamaha CP300 is not going to a fair example of the best sampled piano. I don't know how much memory it has, but I sincerely doubt it it devotes 30 gigs to each piano sound. If you want a fair comparison, plug your CP300 into a MIDI interface on a computer and run a state of the art digital piano sample like the East West Quantum Leap Pianos Platinum one I linked to.

[gaffa]

Originally Posted by squeegee

I have to agree with Ministre here, specifically regarding using the sustain pedal when playing -- the sounds I've heard when doing so with a digital piano have sounded entirely unconvincing to my ears, compared to even a cheap spinet's sustain sound.

"The digital piano"? Which digital piano?

Again, there are a far better piano samples available for purchase than the ones that come pre-loaded on most keyboards. If you said you had compared a Steinway D concert grand to the East West sample of a Steinway D concert grand, then we would be talking.

Seriously, I'd like to conduct a piano "Turing test" where the same player plays the same piece on both, and a listener is challenged to identify the sampled instrument from the non-sampled one.

[WordMan]

I agree that in many/ most situations, the benefits of a digital piano can outweigh the benefits of an acoustic that casual listeners can't perceive. No different in the guitar world with tube amps vs digital modeling amps.

It just matters at some level, yet the tide is not turning back, and for legit reasons. But it does matter. No different than tribal storytellers looking at books with a melancholy eye...

[Tom Tildrum]

Originally Posted by Washoe

Organs too. You can’t even give them away.

I signed up to donate my organ when I die.

[Le Ministre de l'au-delà]

Originally Posted by gaffa

I'm disappointed that you didn't address any of the more substantive points from my post about recording quality.

I didn't because I don't have anything worthwhile to add to what you have said. I am a classical singer, so I don't have any non-classical purposes for recording; I have only done about ~10 or so recordings, none with digital keyboard. In every case, one of the first questions about the recording venue would have been 'What's the piano like?', and decisions would have been made based on its quality. None of the pianists with whom I've recorded would have considered working with a digital piano, so it's rather a moot point.

So I have nothing to say about your digital super piano.

I think the Yamaha is much closer to 'the digital piano that is going into most people's homes' than the 30 gigabyte per sample keyboard that you're speaking of. My Kawai is a very good value for the money, but as I'm sure you know, it is nowhere near a top-notch instrument and is not considered 'concert quality', even by Kawai itself. We bought it for $15K when it was 9 years old; it's about 12 years old now and was used by a friend who is an opera coach.

We got the Yamaha while we were between houses; it served as something to practice on in the apartment, and while we waited for the renos to be finished in the studio of the new house. (I did NOT want the Kawai in the house while there was still drywall dust floating around.) I've kept it because a) the chamber ensemble with which I occasionally sing does community outreach concerts in homeless shelters as a final stage of rehearsals and b) it has been useful when both kids wanted to practice at the same time.

Frequently I'll be out of town for 4-5 weeks for a show. Sometimes, I rent a digital piano; sometimes, I make arrangements to play a piano that's available at the theatre or at the local university/conservatory/music store. So I'm familiar with the advantages of having something there in the hotel room with me, where I can use headphones and practice drunk at 3AM without disturbing anybody. But my best progress has always been when I've been somewhere where I can play a piano that inspires me, and those shows stick in my memory. Stirling Festival Theatre, Man of La Mancha was where I got to practice on a Boesendorfer for a couple of hours a day. Edmonton Opera, Traviata, La Boheme was where I got to practice on the Steinway in the rehearsal hall before or after hours. Winnipeg Centennial Concert Hall, also a Steinway, which was the main concert instrument for the Winnipeg Symphony. Whenever possible, it is a great thing to have an instrument that inspires you to make use of the fresh possibilities that it offers. Yes, I play pretty well for someone who has only been studying since 2004; no, I'm not likely to become proficient enough to play much higher than Grade 9 Royal Conservatory of Music repertoire. That doesn't mean I can't appreciate a good instrument.

So to use cars as a metaphor for a moment - it doesn't surprise me that practical family cars like mini-vans outsell sports cars like Lambourghini or Jaguar. It also doesn't surprise me that between upkeep and insurance, many car buyers would pass up on a bargain priced sports car in favour of the Dodge Caravan. What surprises and saddens me is that, even for free, people are deciding to junk pianos because they can't find anybody willing to take them. It's as if Jaguars are being crushed into cubes because nobody wants them. Makes me sad, and it underlines that my values and the values of the world at large are diverging, that's all.

[Malthus]

The pianos that are being junked are not the Lambourghinis or Jaguars of the piano world. They are the out-of-tune cheapos.

You guys who are concern pianists and recording engineers debating the technical merits of one over the other are really talking about a completely different issue. This is all about what middle class people keep in their living rooms.

[Broomstick]

Originally Posted by WordMan

I agree that in many/ most situations, the benefits of a digital piano can outweigh the benefits of an acoustic that casual listeners can't perceive. No different in the guitar world with tube amps vs digital modeling amps.

A lot of those who can't discern the difference between digital and acoustic aren't going to be able to discern the difference between highest end acoustic and middle-level acoustic either.

[Broomstick]

Originally Posted by Le Ministre de l'au-delà

It's as if Jaguars are being crushed into cubes because nobody wants them. Makes me sad, and it underlines that my values and the values of the world at large are diverging, that's all.

The pianos being trashed aren't equivalent to jaguars, they're beaten up family station wagons.

[Le Ministre de l'au-delà]

The one in that picture (from the article) looks like it's a 6 1/2 foot baby grand - it might be the Knabe mentioned in the article. At any rate, I can't tell anything about it's present condition, but it was quite possibly a worthwhile instrument at some point in its life.

And no, I cannot stress enough, I am not a concert pianist. Concert singer, concert guitarist, yes; pianist, not fuckin' likely, mate!

[gaffa]

Originally Posted by Le Ministre de l'au-delà

So I have nothing to say about your digital super piano.

I think the Yamaha is much closer to 'the digital piano that is going into most people's homes' than the 30 gigabyte per sample keyboard that you're speaking of.

My point about that the link I posted to is the high end of digital samples. $500 gets you four really top end pianos recorded in an excellent venue. Spend the money on a nice weighted MIDI keyboard with a good feel. Then you have a world of well-recorded pianos available to you, rather than just one sound.

So to use cars as a metaphor for a moment - it doesn't surprise me that practical family cars like mini-vans outsell sports cars like Lambourghini or Jaguar. It also doesn't surprise me that between upkeep and insurance, many car buyers would pass up on a bargain priced sports car in favour of the Dodge Caravan. What surprises and saddens me is that, even for free, people are deciding to junk pianos because they can't find anybody willing to take them. It's as if Jaguars are being crushed into cubes because nobody wants them. Makes me sad, that's all...

My point of view is that of the sound engineer would would much rather get an excellent piano sound from a sampled instrument than having to mic one on stage, with all the attendant feedback, leakage and tuning problems. My view is mostly from the rock, pop, jazz and blues world, and I don't have much contact with the classical world. But the world in which I work, I see a lot of shells that look like a grand piano, but collapse to fit into a trailer.

[sleestak]

The idea of tossing out pianos just kinda bums me out. Keyboards are nice, they have some awesome samples (Got Sample Tank at home and it does rather well) but there is nothing like banging away on a baby grand. Even if you can't play, like me.

On that note, I will at some point inherit a baby grand. It is a 1902 Steinway IIRC. My Mom has it now and she got it from her Mom. I am now the only musician in the family besides Mom so I will end up with it.

Slee

[Jaledin]

Even for pianos which have a chance of becoming rehabilitated -- a Rhodes or (if you have forever to work on it) a Wurlitzer EP of some stripe -- I don't care much. I'll always keep my 1976 Rhodes 73 stage -- it's a good one, with a good action -- and my 19xx 720A Wurlitzer EP, also a good one. But I been through about two other Wurlitzers people bought off me just because they looked cool -- good luck unless the new owners are going to replace pretty much every single part.

Acoustic Pianos? They get old and just plain worn out, is what I understand. It's not like putting some need reeds/tonebars/tines on them -- the string tension is so high that they just canna take it anymore. No, a digital is not the same, no matter what quality. It's not the sound of digitals or high-volume samples that is a problem -- it's that you have to turn on your speakers+amp and whatever else. An acoustic, you can just get on it and go, even if it's a POS. And it's also the fingers coming right back to your ears. Maybe some multi-multi-thousand dollar sound amp+speaker can do it close -- obviously no one gives a shit for live -- I'm talking for the serious player looking to shed or just try for inspiration. Not happening.

But OTOH look at the bebop and hard bop cats recorded from home parties and stuff -- they can make that shit sound good. I think kids are getting spoiled from having perfect (stretched) tune and same plastic action, and not learning how to get some music from a dog of a piano. It's half fun and half frustration, but that's how everyone else learned.

[Jaledin]

Originally Posted by Broomstick

A lot of those who can't discern the difference between digital and acoustic aren't going to be able to discern the difference between highest end acoustic and middle-level acoustic either.

I call shenanigans. On a mastered recording, the works -- c'mon. Ten years ago the best ears in the business couldn't tell the difference between a sampled (GIGAsampled IIRC) Rhodes and the real thing set up by a real pro.

On a recording, you can't tell shit. Not you personally, but anyone. Think. Think about it. Reverb. Compression at *least* at the mastering stage. You can't be serious.

If anything, at any rate, it's a single-blind test so maybe, *maybe*, the performer played a bit differently. You have *no* idea *what* the quality of the samples -- and let's even let sampling slide, let's talk modeling as well which is, AFAIC, a mature technology -- is today. It is fucking high. High quality. Better tone than, I'd bet, 96% of the concert pianos on the stage today back to Gettysburg. No "tricky" notes to avoid, no buncombe octaves.

ETA if anyone knows, it'll be the performer. Any audience will know two things: jack and shit.

[gaffa]

Originally Posted by Jaledin

No, a digital is not the same, no matter what quality. It's not the sound of digitals or high-volume samples that is a problem -- it's that you have to turn on your speakers+amp and whatever else. An acoustic, you can just get on it and go, even if it's a POS. And it's also the fingers coming right back to your ears. Maybe some multi-multi-thousand dollar sound amp+speaker can do it close -- obviously no one gives a shit for live -- I'm talking for the serious player looking to shed or just try for inspiration. Not happening.

Sorry, but this is in the realm of audiophile-land, the land of $2000 speaker cables and Tice clocks. Having speakers and an amp is an advantage, not a disadvantage - it allows the player to play whenever inspiration strikes without the problem of disturbing the neighbors.

Again, a sample is a digital recording of a piano. Have you ever been moved by a recording by a talented player? Then you have been moved by a digital recording of notes. And that is all a sample is. The distinction is that the sample package is all the notes of a piano, recorded especially well, at varying distances from the instrument, at multiple velocities, with varying levels of pedal, with the lid open varying amounts - a huge amount of information.

[jz78817]

Originally Posted by Le Ministre de l'au-delà

Broomstick - that's why I found the article depressing. Once again, we are valuing convenience over quality.

only a limited number of people have musical ability. Only a limited number of those people have the ability to afford an expensive musical instrument. When quality apparently is 50 to 100 thousand fucking dollars, what do you expect?

Originally Posted by gaffa

There is a tendency the value the more expensive item just because it is more expensive.

or the older item because it's older.

[WordMan]

I totally get where Le Ministre is coming from. Again from a guitarist's standpoint: 1950's Les Pauls go for tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars. Would an audience know? Nah - geeks would geek out but just be spouting geekery. In front of a big crowd, a decent modern Gibson Historic is more than enough.

But in a quiet moment, when you are alone, does a specific, special instrument matter? Jeez, oh hell yes.

I see the value of standard non- digital pianos the same way - they aren't convenient but they have a special connection that a digital can't replicate. Now, are those the pianos being destroyed? Hopefully not but I see my share of great old guitars that got compromised so nothing would surprise me....

[rocking chair]

it is even difficult to donate pianos these days.

the mini upright that my mother proudly bought in the late 70's hit the untunable state. i ended up using it at a tv stand because there was no where to donate/sell/send it to the farm. it was way, way too heavy for me to move.

thankfully when i sold the house to a contractor he told me to leave anything i wanted. i do wonder how many people it took to take the piano out.

i do hear from time to time about cabinet makers who use old upright to make mantles and other furniture out of old pianos. unfortunately i didn't find one for my piano.

[DoctorJ]

Originally Posted by Le Ministre de l'au-delà

I remember working on a Brahms waltz on a Boesendorfer - there were only three notes in the opening A Major chord and it was marked 'p'. Gently playing the three notes to the bottom of the key made this beautiful, lush resonance that was unmatched by anything a digital could have done.

I had the same experience with a Boesendorfer--playing a simple chord on one just about brought tears to my eyes. But the one I played was on sale for just over $100K. I don't think there will be a time in my lifetime when exorbitantly-priced grands stop being made by companies like that--there is always going to be a market for high-end craftsmanship among the super-wealthy. And I'm pretty confident that there aren't many Boeseys being busted up into firewood.

What's really disappearing are the little consoles that just about every house had when I was growing up. A digital is going to be a better choice in just about every objective way...but I have a lot of nostalgia for those. I love that they all sound a little different, they all feel different, and even the way they're always just a little bit out of tune or have a weak key or two. They have personality. Whenever I went to someone's house I'd always try to find an excuse to sit down and play to get to know that piano.

The one I learned on belonged to my great grandmother, who got it from a church somewhere. It has had panels replaced and all sorts of jury-rigging done to it over the years. It sounds like it's made out of concrete blocks. I love it.

All that said, I have a digital because I don't really have a room in my house I'm willing to rearrange around a piano.