Help me decide what piano to eventually buy

Cafe Society
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I recently got a Yamaha P-45, and I’m enjoying learning to play piano. (I play guitar already so I think having musical experience is making the learning process more fun than it would be if I was starting from scratch.) However, its limitations are already obvious. The speakers suck and even I can tell the action is different from a “real” piano.

But I do like the option of playing with headphones when others in my house are trying to sleep. And while I could make room for an upright or even a smaller grand, obviously you can’t beat the small footprint, flexibility and portability of digital piano.

I guess a silent piano could be the best of both worlds, in that you get real piano action and tone, but the ability to play with headphones or different sounds. But I have no experience with one. I also recognize that acoustic pianos should last for close to fifty years and electronics last maybe a decade. So is a silent piano really a better option than a separate acoustic and digital if I have the space?

What about a hybrid? Can a real piano action make a digital piano feel like an acoustic? Is there any real “best of both worlds solution” to the digital versus acoustic piano question?

I’m not wealthy, but I think a budget upright is achievable on a payment plan. But with such a big investment, would it be better to save for a higher quality option? Or even a grand piano? I can’t say I’ve ever played one, but I hear they’re better if you’re experienced enough to feel and take advantage the difference. I’m unsure if an upright will eventually feel limiting in the way a digital does, if I get really good? If I’m going to make such a large investment, I’d like to be confident it will last basically the rest of my life and never feel like it’s holding me back. At the same time I don’t plan on becoming a virtuoso, or a professional of any kind.

And what about used pianos? In the guitar world a used instrument can be a better value, or even a better instrument overall due to its age. But I’m told pianos don’t really gain value or better tone over time. Is it worth shopping for a used acoustic piano? I already know “free” pianos on Marketplace are usually junk, but reputable piano dealers around here sell used pianos for much cheaper than new, that their descriptions assure me are “tested and in working order”. Is this a good option?

So, to sum up: Acoustic, digital, or both? Silent? Hybrid?
I have little experience and most of what I know about these options comes from online sources. Is there a better place to do this research?
Is a grand enough better than an upright to consider the additional expense and space?
Are used pianos worth looking at?
Is the benefit of an acoustic piano something I will appreciate more as I gain experience? Should I make my first upgrade to a better digital piano, and push the decision about an acoustic until later? Or should I try to do my learning on an acoustic if at all possible?

I’m still doing okay so far on my bottom of the line Yamaha, but I already know I’ll want to upgrade eventually. But it appears the piano market is very different from the guitar market, and I’m just trying to consider options and make a long term plan for a future piano purchase. I’m not even sure if I’ve considered all the details I need to consider, or if there are other variables I’m missing.

Sorry, I know this is long, but I’ve already given it a lot of thought, it’s potentially a big investment, and I’m not really any closer to a decision. So I thought I’d outline my thinking on the issue, to see if more experienced pianists can maybe help me simplify my perspective. I’m not in any hurry yet, though. So now’s the time to make sure I don’t make an expensive mistake.

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Unless you are a dedicated semi-pro or beyond player, I don’t recommend a traditional piano. Heavy, expensive, inflexible. It’s only gonna sound the way it sounds like it or not.

I recommend at least considering the MIDI controller and software instrument option. If you’re not aware, a keyboard MIDI controller has no ability to make any sound itself, it’s just a set of keys that trigger sounds from another device. You can get a really nice hammer-action keyboard that feels exactly like a traditional piano for not a whole lot of money comparatively speaking.

You plug that MIDI controller into a laptop or desktop via USB and run any of a zillion piano apps, with the best being super meticulous samples a real, high end piano. And from there, the sky’s the limit if you want to try other piano models, room types, and even virtual synthesizers from every era. Most any controller you buy will come with some packaged set of standard software. My cheapie non-weighted keyboard came with virtually every important vintage synth plus a number of sampled pianos so I can try a nearly infinite variety of sounds.

The advantage there being that you have a totally portable system, one that works over headphones, stereo speakers or a PA, and the keyboard is (relative to a real piano) inexpensive and dead simple. The laptop less so, but the presumption is that you’ll always have one of those and if you don’t lose your install code, the piano apps can follow you from machine to machine as you replace your hardware over time.

4

I’m skeptical of “feels exactly like a traditional piano,” but I also don’t have enough experience to know for sure.

All the pianists I hear discuss it on Youtube or online seem to agree that while digital piano actions can be very good, nothing beats the real thing. I’m not sure how much of that is marketing and snobbery, and how much is a real concern. Or if only the highest level players can tell the difference, or if it’s something anyone will notice with a little bit of experience under their belt.

I am leaning towards the “get a better digital piano now and push the decision about an acoustic until later” option. But I’m still new enough I’m just not sure. My understanding is that a digital piano is basically your “MIDI controller plus keyboard” idea in one convenient package. But your way sounds more flexible and future proof than an all-in-one system, so I’m definitely adding it to my list of options.

I have focused entirely on acoustic guitars, for various reasons. I like traditional music, I appreciate expertly crafted wood handiwork over machine made electronics. I love the connection to history and the prefer the unique tones an acoustic instrument makes, over the sounds generated by electronics or samples. And so part of me really wants an acoustic for similar reasons. But the difference in price between an acoustic piano and digital is very large, while the difference in price between acoustic and electric guitars is almost negligible.

And so there are intangible and emotional reasons I prefer the idea of an acoustic piano, despite the obvious downsides. But if I can get 90+% of the experience of playing a real piano on a digital keyboard, I’ll probably do that for the time being, until I become richer or the choice becomes much more obvious.

5

Can’t help with the action (I assume you mean the feel of the keys) but can’t you just plug in external speakers to improve audio quality?

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Well, there’s just a huge difference between sound from speakers and sound from a vibrating wooden soundboard. The soundboard of a piano is like the size of a wall. No reasonably priced speaker can move that kind of air. And it’s not just volume, but there are a bunch of sonic nuances from natural material resonating, versus a prerecorded sample, no matter how well programmed.

But yeah, good speakers can go a long way towards bridging the gap.

Action is the way the keys feel and respond to your fingers. The way you can play softly or loudly and how it instantly responds to your touch. I can definitely tell the difference between the feel of my digital piano keys and the times I’ve played a real piano. I’m still not 100% sure how much that difference will affect my learning or playing style going forward though.

7

I’ve only rarely ever even TOUCHED an electronic piano - but I definitely encourage you to get one that feels the most like a real piano. If you are ever to purchase a real piano, you don’t want THAT to feel “wrong”.

As far as how to tell - do you know anyone in real life who plays piano who could help you check things out?

Some rambling thoughts / questions (without having done any research):

  • Do electronic keyboards all come with the full 88 keys? I know I saw - years back - someone’s house without the full range of octaves. To me, that would be an absolute dealbreaker
  • Are the keys the same size as on a standard piano? Not a big deal if not, IF you are only going to be playing on that device - but it might make switching to a standardized format a bit tough as you’d have developed your muscle memory all wrong
  • The “feel” of the keys is really a big deal. You don’t want something with keys that spring back up too easily, or are too hard or too easy to depress. This is where someone with at least a little real piano experience would be able to help, a lot.
  • The sound is actually the least of my concerns, if I were to shop for such a thing. I mean, you don’t want to press middle C and have something like the sound of a flute or a trumpet*, but it doesn’t need to mimic a true piano sound absolutely perfectly, as long as the subtleties won’t bug you too much.
  • Are you looking for something that stands in a room permanently, that sort of mimics a real piano (but perhaps can be “taken down”, with some trouble, if you need the space or are moving), or something more portable that basically gets put away when you are not using it? If the latter, will it have legs, or will you set it on a table, or will it go on your lap?
  • of course, it wouldn’t surprise me of some such electronic tools have the ability to let you make it sound like another instrument, if desired.
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Well, as a terrible piano player, limited to either plinking or layering simple parts together in a DAW, I’m not the best judge. My understanding is that different brands and types of piano feel different to each other, so saying a particular make of controller keybed doesn’t feel like a ‘real’ piano makes me question exactly which piano does it not feel like?

As the owner of a fine, hand-made acoustic guitar (as well as a bunch of also very nice electrics) I understand this argument very well. To me though, the bigger gap between any kind digital piano vs a traditional piano is not cost, it’s that others in the house have no option but to hear it. A real issue, especially at night. I gave away a very nice upright when my father died, largely because I knew there was no way to play it in my current house without causing a lot of friction with my wife. Plus I wanted to record stuff, and recording and editing a MIDI instrument track is wildly easier than miking a real piano.*

A thought: if you don’t have a good music store with some hammer action controllers to try, consider buying from Sweetwater or someplace with a solid return policy. Give it a try and send it back if you don’t like it.

*Plus plus what I really wanted was a Mellotron and a Mini Moog.

9

If you have the money and the space, yes.

Are used pianos worth looking at?

Absolutely. Unless you have money to burn, buying used is the only way to go, whether privately (cheaper) or through a dealer. You’ll just have to be patient and careful and find a good piano technician who can check out your prospective instruments for you.

Is the benefit of an acoustic piano something I will appreciate more as I gain experience?

Yes.

Before doing anything, you should go to as many piano stores as you can and play as many different acoustic pianos as you can. Every brand – and every model within each brand – has its distinctive tone and touch, and only you can say what feel and sound you prefer. I’m confident that you will find the experience of playing a high-quality acoustic piano superior to that of most digital keyboards. You just have to decide which one you like best and if you’re ready to make the commitment to finding and owning one.

Since you don’t seem to be in a big hurry, I’d suggest finding a good piano technician that you can get along with personally, and ask for his/her advice. Begin a long, slow careful process of determining what kind of instrument would be best for you, and then locating one of those pianos in good condition and at a good price.

Piano techs are great sources of information, and they can be a big help in finding just the right instrument because they know the brands, they can tell how an instrument has been treated, whether it will need work, whether it’s worth the asking price, etc.

They may also have a line on a piano they have worked on whose owner wants to sell. This would be a perfect situation, since they will know almost everything about its condition.

If you’ve decided you’re serious about getting a real acoustic, I strongly recommend looking for a used Yamaha Disklavier upright or grand. They are real acoustic pianos with an electronic player mechanism and sampled piano synthesizer built in. They are also MIDI capable, so you can use them to control any other synth or keyboard you have or want to get. They can be played full acoustic only, in silent mode with the internal sampled piano or your external device playing through speakers or headphones, or both.

If you are patient you should be able to find an instrument in good condition at a good price, because the market for acoustic pianos has dried up. Because of their versatility, Disklaviers will be more expensive than a comparable acoustic-only instrument, but the versatility makes them worth the price. A few years ago I sold a 20-year-old six-foot Disklavier grand, that I had had paid $30,000 for new, for $12,000.

I recommend Yamaha over other brands, even if you get an acoustic-only piano, because they are much more consistent and stable than most other top brands. They handle varying temperature and humidity conditions better, and since you probably won’t know exactly how well maintained it has been, that makes Yamahas a much safer option.

10

I would own a digital piano only as a backup (but that’s just me, of course; I get the appeal).

I know that digitals have come a long way in sound and feel, but I will always be an acoustic guy.

To address the sound issue, many acoustic uprights have a “practice pedal” - a middle pedal that you depress and slide to the left - that mutes the sound nicely. The best of both worlds.

mmm

https://imgur.com/4vPQfce

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One huge advantage of an electronic piano is that you don’t have to have it tuned. I have a bias here: we had a piano when I was growing up, but my parents either couldn’t be bothered or couldn’t afford to have it tuned, and it drove me crazy. I think it killed my interest in piano past a certain point. It needs to be done yearly, and I think it’s like $100 or so, plus you have to be available for a trades person. And periodically there are other, mire expensive repairs.

Anyway, if you haven’t tried a good electronic piano, I wouldn’t rule it out. We upgraded to the Roland FP 30, which was about $1000, and it’s a completely different beast compared to the entry-level Yamaha we had before. The keys feel better, the sound is much better, and the features are smarter (2 headphone jacks!). I mean, if you want an acoustic piano, go for it. But the Yamaha 45 is not a good representation of what electronic pianos are like.

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Personally I find that a sufficiently good acoustic piano is better than digital. But it is a hassle when moving, needs tuning (as MandaJo rightly points out) and probably costs more. Nowadays we do own an acoustic piano but when I was younger I would have gone for digital because of ease, footprint and cost (and possibility to play with headphones whenever you want).

When looking at piano’s (10-20 years ago) I noticed a good digital piano can have almost the same feel as an acoustic piano. The sound also is quite alike (and presumably only has improved). So unless you really want acoustic I would suggest to upgrade to a better digital piano. For instance, some of the Clavinova models Yamaha have real wooden keys (and weigh a lot, over 20-60 kg) but are still relatively affordable ($ 1000-4000 I think). I remember that Yamaha and Roland did have good piano’s.

Edited to add: those models look and feel more like real piano’s. If you don’t want to go to that expense I think that cheaper digital piano’s that are more like keyboards on a stand (around $ 1000-2000) may still offer an upgrade relative to your model, both in feel and in sound. I’d still recommend Yamaha, but as others suggested the best option is to visit a dealer who has several models in a showroom.

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Something else to consider:

Depending on your living environment, you may be limited to a digital. I’ve seen apartment buildings that, a) refuse to allow acoustic pianos, or, b) demand you carry (additional?) renters insurance for acoustics.

What’s the saddest sound in the world? My wife, whenever she sees a really good deal on a Steinway grand – we just don’t have the room.

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Our university piano lab had Clavinovas that felt almost like the real thing. Not that I’m a real piano player.

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Some acoustic pianos are so good they almost play and sound like digitals.

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@MandaJo makes some good points about the costs of owning an acoustic or hybrid piano: you will have to have it tuned regularly, once or twice a year, depending on the climate of your location, and each tuning will probably cost at least $150. There may be other periodic maintenance or repair costs over the instrument’s life, depending on how much you play. These are things you won’t have to do with a digital keyboard.

On the other hand, good acoustic pianos have working lifespans ranging from decades to a century or more. If you can look at it from that perspective, the cost of ownership of an acoustic may not be that much more than buying a new digital every decade or so.

On the third hand, you’ll be getting the latest technology every time you upgrade the digital.

On the fourth hand, the basic technology of acoustic pianos (setting aside the digital add-ons) hasn’t changed much in a century and a half, and isn’t likely to change that much over the next century.

She’s also right that there’s quite a range of quality within digital instruments and you may find a more sophisticated (and expensive) digital meets your needs without taking the big step to acoustics.

The only bone I have to pick with @MandaJo is her rather slighting reference to piano technicians as “trades people,” and the implication that needing one to service your piano periodically is a necessary evil.

As you may have gathered from my previous post, I have tremendous respect for piano techs. Rather than thinking of them like a plumber, you should see them as enormously skilled practitioners of a very complex and challenging art that combines craftsmanship, physics, and musical talent.

Yes, I said talent. Most of the techs I have known were impressive musicians, and could play much more than the simple chords needed to check their tuning. After all, they need be able to perceive the most delicate nuances of a musical performance, have the sensitivity to hear what a client means if they say the pedals aren’t damping quickly enough, and feel if the touch of the action isn’t even across the keyboard. And then they need to know how to fix those problems.

The physics of various tuning methods is fiendishly complicated, and although techs now have sophisticated instruments to help them with tuning, it still needs a very sensitive and experienced ear and a delicate touch to make the whole instrument sound just right.

Piano techs can also be a treasure trove of information for their clients, in ways I have suggested above, when selecting a piano, and also in how to maintain it once purchased. For instance, do you need a humidifier or dehumidifier? Should you move it so it doesn’t get direct sunlight (yes!), etc.

Virtually all the piano techs I have known have been consummate professionals, extremely knowledgeable and talented, enthusiastic about their work, and more than willing to share the benefit of their expertise with their clients. And most of them were also very nice people. I have learned a great deal about pianos, performing, and musicianship from them.

They are not merely “trades people.” Harrumph!

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God, no, that’s not what I meant. I don’t think of “tradesperson” as a bad thing in any way, shape or form. Trades = highly specialized knowledge, and that’s cool.

My point is just you can’t take the piano in to be serviced, so to have it tuned, you have to make an appointment and maybe take a half day or day off work. For me, that’s a big deal. I hate scheduling things with professionals, especially in my home, because at best you get a 4 hour window and unless your job is flex8ble, its a big pain.

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Also, honestly, do you really think that other trades people . . . Carpenters, masons, electricians . . . are contemptible? All those are skilled professions. I don’t see “piano tech” as better or worse. What am i missing?

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No, of course not, and I hope you realize that I didn’t seriously think you were being snobbish. (Hence my self-mocking “Harrumph.”)

It’s just that I’ve been watching a bunch of period dramas in which the English gentry look down their noses at those lowly “trades people,” and your reference reminded me of that classist attitude.

There are no doubt still people (in every country) with such snobbish attitudes, but I didn’t think you were seriously expressing that view.

And you make another good point about not being able to take a big piano in for service.

Along similar lines, anyone thinking about an acoustic piano should consider the stability of their living situation. In the 20 years I owned my 6-foot Disklavier I moved it to new homes three times, not counting the move into the first place after buying it and out of the last place when I sold it. Moving an 800 lbs (363 kg), $30k piano is no job for amateurs and the pros charge several hundred just for a cross-town move, to say nothing of going across the country.

Just something else to consider.

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I think this is part of why I’m seriously considering a piano now (well, besides actually playing now when I didn’t before). I turned down a couple free pianos over the years, because our old house was small. Fortunately, I guess, because I’ve since learned that most old free pianos are not worth the price.

But we moved a couple years ago and we really feel like this might be our last house. And while it’s not huge, I could certainly fit a piano in it.

One big downside is every entrance has a set of stairs to get to it. There used to be a ramp back when a lawyer used this house as their office, but that got torn down before we moved here. We’re thinking about putting it back when we replace our deck in the near future, but I would imagine most piano movers have dealt with stairs before?

Speaking of which, is moving a piano something you can reasonably DIY? I’m sure there are specialized dollies that can make it easier, but in my mind it must be the most difficult moving task imaginable. I’m assuming the legs of a grand come off, or else you’d have to build the house around it.