Freemasonry

[Doc Dish]

In Cecil's article from 1989 (http://www.straightdope.com/columns/...on-freemasonry) he cites British author Stephen Knight as to the meaning of the name of the Freemasons' Great Architect "Jahbulon".

Knight is best known for his book "Jack the Ripper: The Final Solution" where he claims the Ripper murders were a plot to cover up an illegitimate Royal baby. (The book was one of the major inspirations behind Alan Moore & Eddie Campbell's "From Hell".)

However, this book has been comprehensively debunked and his other work on Masonry, "The Brotherhood" is equally suspect, so Cecil should take care in using his claims as an authoritative source.

Disclaimer: I am the son of a Mason, but have no interest in joining myself (and am actively prevented from doing so due to my lack of religious belief).

[Khadaji]

So what is the meaning of the name of the Freemasons' Great Architect "Jahbulon"?

[Steken]

Originally Posted by Khadaji

So what is the meaning of the name of the Freemasons' Great Architect "Jahbulon"?

In Masonic lore, the architect of the Solomonic temple is named Hiram.

"The Great Architect of the Universe", i.e., God, on the other hand, is usually called just that: "The Great Architect of the Universe."

As for the term "Jahbulon", I don't know where it comes from, but I'm pretty sure it isn't widely used. Not within Masonry, anyways.

[OtisCampbellWasRight]

That name is used, rather fleetingly, in one of the more advanced degrees in the York Rite branch of Masonry. The name is used, but Knight's reference is out of context, moreover, wrong.

He's a guy out to sell books, facts are unimportant.

[John W. Kennedy]

Wikipedia, s.v., has a few things to say on “Jahbulon”. Lord! how all this stuff ends up draining into the same old foggy Gnostic bog.

--
John W. Kennedy
“While the Pistis Sophia is just readable, the Books of Jeû are not. The revelations they contain are conveyed in mystic diagrams, and numbers, and meaningless collections of letters, and it requires a vast deal of historical imagination and sympathy to put oneself in the place of anybody who could tolerate, let alone reverence, the dreary stuff.”
—Montague Rhodes James

[Steken]

Originally Posted by John W. Kennedy

Wikipedia, s.v., has a few things to say on “Jahbulon”. Lord! how all this stuff ends up draining into the same old foggy Gnostic bog.

--
John W. Kennedy
“While the Pistis Sophia is just readable, the Books of Jeû are not. The revelations they contain are conveyed in mystic diagrams, and numbers, and meaningless collections of letters, and it requires a vast deal of historical imagination and sympathy to put oneself in the place of anybody who could tolerate, let alone reverence, the dreary stuff.”
—Montague Rhodes James

What's so foggy about it?

Like with all religious doctrine, it's clear enough if you bother to do your research.

Plenty of excellent scholarship has been done since Montague Rhodes James' day on both the Pistis Sophia, the two Books of Jeû, Gnosticism generally, etc., etc. The same is true for Masonic lore, Masonic history, etc.

Brill's "Dictionary of Gnosis and Western Esotericism" is a good place to start -- the entry about "Gnosticism" deals, in part, with the Books of Jeû, and reflects the latest scholarship. (The entries on the Ophites and the Perates are great as well.)

[kjg3000]

As a Mason for thirty years...a couple of brief comments. 1) the clear request to all candidates is that they acknowledge the existence of supreme being of some kind - which flavor you pick is up to you, but clearly no atheists allowed - at least in the American lodge. 2) The basic Freemason's organization, sometimes call Blue Lodge - goes to simple straight ahead philosophy and working together and should not be confused with some of the later added organizations or "advanced degrees, such Chapter, Commandry, etc, up through Shriners

As for sneakier, more sinister, deep seated plots.... heh, heh, heh ... none of you really believes that do you? .... heh, heh, heh .....

[Steken]

Originally Posted by kjg3000

As a Mason for thirty years...a couple of brief comments. 1) the clear request to all candidates is that they acknowledge the existence of supreme being of some kind - which flavor you pick is up to you, but clearly no atheists allowed - at least in the American lodge. 2) The basic Freemason's organization, sometimes call Blue Lodge - goes to simple straight ahead philosophy and working together and should not be confused with some of the later added organizations or "advanced degrees, such Chapter, Commandry, etc, up through Shriners

As for sneakier, more sinister, deep seated plots.... heh, heh, heh ... none of you really believes that do you? .... heh, heh, heh .....

So do you call God "Jahbulon" or what?

[jinni73]

The most accurate portrayal of freemasonry is found in the book A secret history of freemasonry written by freemason and historian Paul Naudon,

Freemasonry is linked with Rosicrucianism (see the Georgia Guidestones as to what the rosies believe in)
The rosies are still very much in existance controlling most of the media and hence then enabling them to control the governments of the world,
the Guide stones were erected 33 years ago on the 22nd june 1979 if you understand Occultism and the connection they have with numerology you will realise these are a seriously disturbed group of individuals that are trying to bring about what the guidestones say.

[Gleena]

Originally Posted by jinni73

The most accurate portrayal of freemasonry is found in the book A secret history of freemasonry written by freemason and historian Paul Naudon,

Freemasonry is linked with Rosicrucianism (see the Georgia Guidestones as to what the rosies believe in)
The rosies are still very much in existance controlling most of the media and hence then enabling them to control the governments of the world,
the Guide stones were erected 33 years ago on the 22nd june 1979 if you understand Occultism and the connection they have with numerology you will realise these are a seriously disturbed group of individuals that are trying to bring about what the guidestones say.

I....wait, what?

So Freemasons are why Firefly and Carnivale got cancelled? Those bastards!

[Steken]

Originally Posted by jinni73

The most accurate portrayal of freemasonry is found in the book A secret history of freemasonry written by freemason and historian Paul Naudon,

Freemasonry is linked with Rosicrucianism (see the Georgia Guidestones as to what the rosies believe in)
The rosies are still very much in existance controlling most of the media and hence then enabling them to control the governments of the world,
the Guide stones were erected 33 years ago on the 22nd june 1979 if you understand Occultism and the connection they have with numerology you will realise these are a seriously disturbed group of individuals that are trying to bring about what the guidestones say.

No, that's not true.

[gnoitall]

Originally Posted by jinni73

The most accurate portrayal of freemasonry is found in the book A secret history of freemasonry written by freemason and historian Paul Naudon,

Freemasonry is linked with Rosicrucianism (see the Georgia Guidestones as to what the rosies believe in)
The rosies are still very much in existance controlling most of the media and hence then enabling them to control the governments of the world,
the Guide stones were erected 33 years ago on the 22nd june 1979 if you understand Occultism and the connection they have with numerology you will realise these are a seriously disturbed group of individuals that are trying to bring about what the guidestones say.

My Grandpa was a Mason and all I got was this lousy guidestone.

[sisu]

Originally Posted by jinni73

The most accurate portrayal of freemasonry is found in the book A secret history of freemasonry written by freemason and historian Paul Naudon,

Freemasonry is linked with Rosicrucianism (see the Georgia Guidestones as to what the rosies believe in)
The rosies are still very much in existance controlling most of the media and hence then enabling them to control the governments of the world,
the Guide stones were erected 33 years ago on the 22nd june 1979 if you understand Occultism and the connection they have with numerology you will realise these are a seriously disturbed group of individuals that are trying to bring about what the guidestones say.

Damn you Cecil and your fight against ignorance now we have another one to silence

[jinni73]

Originally Posted by sisu

Damn you Cecil and your fight against ignorance now we have another one to silence

so if you can't be bothered to go and read books that historians have wrote this biblebelievers.org.au/masonic.htm link will give you a general idea

but as you are so interested in fighting ignorance then i say you should always start with yourself
go and find the book and dont shout down what others tell you until you know yourself.

freemasonry is an extension of stonemasonry when the majority of the bridges and churches were built they expanded stonemasonry into adding other trades and keeping secrets to one group of people mathematicians poets these types of people


even if you type in history of freemasonry in wikipedia it tells you it goes back to the 13th century

[LawMonkey]

Originally Posted by Gleena

I....wait, what?

So Freemasons are why Firefly and Carnivale got cancelled? Those bastards!

I'm going to have to have a serious discussion with my father (32* Scottish Rite) about this.

[Steken]

Originally Posted by jinni73

so if you can't be bothered to go and read books that historians have wrote this biblebelievers.org.au/masonic.htm link will give you a general idea

but as you are so interested in fighting ignorance then i say you should always start with yourself
go and find the book and dont shout down what others tell you until you know yourself.

freemasonry is an extension of stonemasonry when the majority of the bridges and churches were built they expanded stonemasonry into adding other trades and keeping secrets to one group of people mathematicians poets these types of people


even if you type in history of freemasonry in wikipedia it tells you it goes back to the 13th century

Wait, so where do the Jews fit in?

[gamerunknown]

Originally Posted by Steken

Wait, so where do the Jews fit in?

Better yet, where can I send an application to transfer departments? I have a feeling being part of the International Banking Elite is more lucrative than Marxism.

[Steken]

Originally Posted by gamerunknown

Better yet, where can I send an application to transfer departments? I have a feeling being part of the International Banking Elite is more lucrative than Marxism.

Oh, that's easy. Just drop your application off at the Old Jewish Cemetery in Prague, and the Elders will have a look at it at their next meeting.

[John W. Kennedy]

Originally Posted by jinni73

even if you type in history of freemasonry in wikipedia it tells you it goes back to the 13th century

No it doesn’t.

[jinni73]

Originally Posted by John W. Kennedy

No it doesn’t.

Origin of the term "Freemason"

The earliest official English documents to refer to masons are written in Latin or Norman French. Thus we have "sculptores lapidum liberorum" (London 1212), "magister lathomus liberarum petrarum" (Oxford 1391), and "mestre mason de franche peer" (Statute of Labourers 1351). These all signify a worker in freestone, a grainless sandstone or limestone suitable for ornamental masonry. In the 17th century building accounts of Wadham College the terms freemason and freestone mason are used interchangeably. Freemason also contrasts with "Rough Mason" or "Layer", as a more skilled worker who worked or laid dressed stone.[1]

The adjective "free" in this context may also be taken to infer that the mason is not enslaved, indentured or feudally bound. While this is difficult to reconcile with medieval English masons, it apparently became important to Scottish operative lodges.[17]

[jinni73]

Originally Posted by Steken

Wait, so where do the Jews fit in?

What have Jews got to do with it

The original Christians were annexed by the Romans in 66-71CE then the bible was put together around 70CE, There is no record of anyone called Jesus in the history books according to historians who have examined the surviving proofs and texts of the era.
source through the ages by alf henrikson.

The current Jews stem from Khazar the timeline goes back to Attila the Huns lineage and are now named the Rothschilds after changing their name from Bauer,
they pretty much control banking, insurance and pharmaceuticals, they are the bankers of the Catholic church and were the guys who were supplying Hitlers Germany with money until Hitler had England defeated in ww2

then the bankers went to Churchill and said they would get the Americans involved on Englands side even though they were on Germany's side because of the communism factor if England handed over Israel to the Jews
Churchill agreed the Jews withdrew support for Hitler and then the rest is history according to one of my historian friends this is the point Hitler started killing Jews

[C K Dexter Haven]

jinni73: That's the most idiotic nonsense I've seen in a lonnng time. There's not a grain of truth in anything you say, and your dates on the creation of the bible are ludicrous. Jews did provide the Hitler with money in a way: the Nazis confiscated all Jewish money and property that they could get their hands on.

Your "historian friend" is a nut job and an idiot.

[John W. Kennedy]

Originally Posted by jinni73

Origin of the term "Freemason"

The earliest official English documents to refer to masons are written in Latin or Norman French. Thus we have "sculptores lapidum liberorum" (London 1212), "magister lathomus liberarum petrarum" (Oxford 1391), and "mestre mason de franche peer" (Statute of Labourers 1351). These all signify a worker in freestone, a grainless sandstone or limestone suitable for ornamental masonry. In the 17th century building accounts of Wadham College the terms freemason and freestone mason are used interchangeably. Freemason also contrasts with "Rough Mason" or "Layer", as a more skilled worker who worked or laid dressed stone.[1]

The adjective "free" in this context may also be taken to infer that the mason is not enslaved, indentured or feudally bound. While this is difficult to reconcile with medieval English masons, it apparently became important to Scottish operative lodges.[17]

We all know that there were craft guilds, but the freemason cult came much later.

[John W. Kennedy]

Originally Posted by Steken

Wait, so where do the Jews fit in?

Some of the Freemason-oriented loonies I’ve encountered believe that the cult dates back at least to the building of the Temple of Solomon.

[tomndebb]

Originally Posted by jinni73

What have Jews got to do with it

The original Christians were annexed by the Romans in 66-71CE then the bible was put together around 70CE, There is no record of anyone called Jesus in the history books according to historians who have examined the surviving proofs and texts of the era.
source through the ages by alf henrikson.

The current Jews stem from Khazar the timeline goes back to Attila the Huns lineage and are now named the Rothschilds after changing their name from Bauer,
they pretty much control banking, insurance and pharmaceuticals, they are the bankers of the Catholic church and were the guys who were supplying Hitlers Germany with money until Hitler had England defeated in ww2

then the bankers went to Churchill and said they would get the Americans involved on Englands side even though they were on Germany's side because of the communism factor if England handed over Israel to the Jews
Churchill agreed the Jews withdrew support for Hitler and then the rest is history according to one of my historian friends this is the point Hitler started killing Jews

Nope.

I am not sure how the Romans would have "annexed" the early Christians around the time of the first Jewish revolt, but the claim makes no sense in any historic context. By 70, Christians had already expanded from Judaea throughout Asia minor, into Greece and Egypt, and had even begun to establish communities in Rome and Iberia. Soon after they expanded into Southern Gaul and up the Adriatic coast. However, despite their widespread missionary work, they were at that time a rather insignificant and scattered group that really did not garner the attention of the Romans. Even Nero's purported attacks on Christians was pretty much limited to the city of Rome--although how one "annexes" a group that one is persecuting, I am not sure.

As to Scripture, the only New Testament works that were even written by 70 were the seven authentic epistles of Paul and, perhaps, the Gospel of Mark. The Hebrew Scriptures had already been written by that time, of course, and the rest of the New Testament was mostly written over the next forty years. Claiming that "the bible was put together" around 70 displays an incredible lack of historical knowledge.

The Khazars were, indeed, a Turkic group in the area near the Black Sea from some time before the seventh century to around the eleventh century. Around the ninth century "they" converted to Judaism en masse. (It is not clear whether it was only the aristocracy or some large number of the population who chose to convert. However, they were a pluralistic society that tolerated a wide variety of religious beliefs, so they never became a "Jewish" society in any meaningful sense.) By the tenth century, as happens to many socities, they had passed through a period of rising dominance, followed by decline. New nations to their east pressured them to move westward, dissolving as a coherent society, with their descendants being pushed westward into the Danube valley.
In the late 1940s and early 1950s, a few nutcases stumbled on the facts that little was known about the Khazars and dreamed up a weird conspiracy in which the Khazars "became" the Jews of Eastern Europe. This silliness was promoted in the late 1970s when Arthur Koestler wrote the book The Thirteenth Tribe, that repeated the claim. Unfortunately for believers in that tale, the migrations of the Jews of the Diaspora are pretty well documented and the Khazars play no part in those journeys. Recently, DNA evidence has provided overwhelming evidence that the Ashkenazim are related to Sephardic Jews and the Mizrahim of the Middle East, putting the final nail in the coffin of the claim.

Aside from being mostly incoherent, the claims about the Rothschilds (or the Jews?) aligning with Hitler until they switched allegiance to Churchill is just silly, with no basis in real events.

[Simple Linctus]

Jahbulon is nonsense in Britain.

There is a "J word" but it's, shall we say, not unique to freemasonry.

[Monty]

Originally Posted by jinni73

so if you can't be bothered to go and read books that historians have wrote this biblebelievers.org.au/masonic.htm link will give you a general idea

If you can't be bothered to even make sense, why should anyone be bothered to go look at your ludicrous link?