Words that go together

[Aspidistra]

In modern English, if you "wreak" something, it's generally "havoc" (or possibly revenge). The only thing that can be "akimbo" is "arms". There's only "flotsam" where there's also "jetsam"

Is there a term for words like this that are solely or mainly used in just one context? And what are some more that people can think of?

[Peanuthead]

You never hear nook without cranny.

[Kolak of Twilo]

Originally Posted by Peanuthead

You never hear nook without cranny.

I would say that is actually the other way around. I've never heard cranny in another context but I've heard of a breakfast nook.

[Superhal]

The technical term is collocation.

You can't write a picture, draw an essay, go the dishes, or play skiing.

[zombywoof]

"Ajar" ("Door")

[Aspidistra]

Yeah, that's close. But this would be a particular type of collocation - one in which a component had fallen so much into disuse that it never appeared outside that specific context.

I'm seeing Collocational restriction on wiki as well, but again that isn't quite it - the 'white' in 'white wine' or 'white man' might be different to 'white paint' but the word 'white' is still ubiquitous in other contexts.

[troubledwater]

I was just noticing today that "nigh" is usually preceded by "The end of the world is."

[Leaffan]

Michelle, ma belle,
These are words that go together well.

[Superhal]

Originally Posted by Aspidistra

Yeah, that's close. But this would be a particular type of collocation - one in which a component had fallen so much into disuse that it never appeared outside that specific context.

I'm seeing Collocational restriction on wiki as well, but again that isn't quite it - the 'white' in 'white wine' or 'white man' might be different to 'white paint' but the word 'white' is still ubiquitous in other contexts.

Yeah after more thought, there's several different terms for "words that go together."

Compound nouns: the trash bag is never the waste bag because "trash bag" is a word in itself.
Cliche, expression, saying: A bird in the hand is worth __________.
Phrasal verbs: when a verb and a preposition are put together to form a new, specific meaning, they always must go together.

I believe the OP has examples of all of the ones I mentioned in their original post except phrasal verbs.

[Senegoid]

We had this discussion just last month, started by OP Silver Tyger

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...d.php?t=675139

[Senegoid]

Originally Posted by troubledwater

I was just noticing today that "nigh" is usually preceded by "The end of the world is."

A train also draws nigh, especially when it's about to plow over Bill Grogan's goat.

[jnglmassiv]

Originally Posted by Senegoid

We had this discussion just last month, started by OP Silver Tyger

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...d.php?t=675139

And the answer is fossil word. Lottsa good examples in the Wiki entry.

[njtt]

Originally Posted by Superhal

The technical term is collocation.

You can't write a picture, draw an essay, go the dishes, or play skiing.

All those words go perfectly well with lots of other words. They are not in any way examples of what the OP is talking about.

Furthermore, the fact that you cannot write a picture, etc., is not a fact about language at all, it is a fact about the natures of the acts and objects named.

[Aspidistra]

Originally Posted by jnglmassiv

And the answer is fossil word. Lottsa good examples in the Wiki entry.

FTW!

[Superhal]

Originally Posted by njtt

All those words go perfectly well with lots of other words. They are not in any way examples of what the OP is talking about.

Furthermore, the fact that you cannot write a picture, etc., is not a fact about language at all, it is a fact about the natures of the acts and objects named.

Had a long answer planned, but instead I'll just call you ignorant and advise you to check any grammar book about "word choice error" or "collocation error."

[Stealth Potato]

Originally Posted by Superhal

Had a long answer planned, but instead I'll just call you ignorant and advise you to check any grammar book about "word choice error" or "collocation error."

If you generously grant that njtt meant "grammar" specifically and not "language" generally, his statement is correct.

[Superhal]

Originally Posted by Stealth Potato

If you generously grant that njtt meant "grammar" specifically and not "language" generally, his statement is correct.

Sigh. Read my post above and follow the same instructions.

If you've never heard of either, I'd suggest dropping it now and calling it a loss.

[Stealth Potato]

Originally Posted by Superhal

Sigh. Read my post above and follow the same instructions.

If you've never heard of either, I'd suggest dropping it now and calling it a loss.

Far be it for me to get into a grammar argument at 4 in the morning when I should be working, but according to my understanding, the invalidity of phrases like "write a picture" is semantic and not syntactic. "Write a picture" is as grammatical as "read a book."

[Superhal]

Originally Posted by Stealth Potato

Far be it for me to get into a grammar argument at 4 in the morning when I should be working, but according to my understanding, the invalidity of phrases like "write a picture" is semantic and not syntactic. "Write a picture" is as grammatical as "read a book."

Again, I would advise you to figure out what a "word choice error" and a "collocation error" are before you continue to embarrass yourself.

[Stealth Potato]

Originally Posted by Superhal

Again, I would advise you to figure out what a "word choice error" and a "collocation error" are before you continue to embarrass yourself.

Alternatively, you could explain what a word choice error is and why it has anything to do with syntax.

[Superhal]

It doesn't. It's a well accepted grammar error that would be marked wrong by perhaps 100% of native speakers who saw it, which is the gold standard for deciding what is "right" or "wrong" in terms of grammar.

[Stealth Potato]

And most native speakers don't know the difference between syntax and semantics, but there's no reason to be sloppy when you're talking in a context where the difference might be important or useful. The rules of syntax may be determined by corpus linguistics, but that doesn't mean that every time someone says "this is wrong" it means "this violates the rules of English grammar."

IOW, if somebody says "write a picture" is bad grammar, they're wrong, or they don't know what grammar is. There is absolutely no difficulty in parsing "write a picture" as English.

[TonySinclair]

The only thing you can make the welkin do is ring.

[Superhal]

Originally Posted by Stealth Potato

And most native speakers don't know the difference between syntax and semantics, but there's no reason to be sloppy when you're talking in a context where the difference might be important or useful. The rules of syntax may be determined by corpus linguistics, but that doesn't mean that every time someone says "this is wrong" it means "this violates the rules of English grammar."

IOW, if somebody says "write a picture" is bad grammar, they're wrong, or they don't know what grammar is. There is absolutely no difficulty in parsing "write a picture" as English.

"Write a picture" is a well-known grammar error, if only you did the research I suggested.

[Superhal]

Originally Posted by Stealth Potato

Far be it for me to get into a grammar argument at 4 in the morning when I should be working, but according to my understanding, the invalidity of phrases like "write a picture" is semantic and not syntactic. "Write a picture" is as grammatical as "read a book."

It is also very early in the morning for me yet I have an MA in a related field and have been teaching grammar for ~20 years.

[Stealth Potato]

Originally Posted by Superhal

"Write a picture" is a well known grammar error.

Many things are "well known" grammar errors that have nothing at all to do with grammar. A simple parse of the phrase in question is enough to correspond its structure with one of the most basic units of English syntax:

[_VP write a picture] = [_VP [_V write] [_NP a picture]] => [_VP [_V write] [_NP [_D a] [_N picture]]]

To claim that merely nonsense phrases are bad grammar is to blur the definition of grammar to the point of uselessness. It would be like saying that dropping an anvil on your foot is bad metallurgy: sure, there's a connection there, but no, not really.

[Superhal]

Originally Posted by Stealth Potato

Many things are "well known" grammar errors that have nothing at all to do with grammar. A simple parse of the phrase in question is enough to correspond its structure with one of the most basic units of English syntax:

[_VP write a picture] = [_VP [_V write] [_NP a picture]] => [_VP [_V write] [_NP [_D a] [_N picture]]]

To claim that merely nonsense phrases are bad grammar is to blur the definition of grammar to the point of uselessness. It would be like saying that dropping an anvil on your foot is bad metallurgy: sure, there's a connection there, but no, not really.

Seriously, you're trying to drop that UG crap to win an argument? Green dreams sleep furiously?

Again, see what I posted.

[Stealth Potato]

"Green dreams sleep furiously" is nonsense but good grammar. Really, why are you so insistent on making syntax do a job that it's not meant to do? If you could point out to me where in a reputable book on grammar by actual linguists (CGEL for example) it lists the rule by which "write a picture" can be judged ungrammatical, I would happily concede the point.

EDIT: and you leave my grampapa alone!

[Superhal]

Originally Posted by Stealth Potato

"Green dreams sleep furiously" is nonsense but good grammar. Really, why are you so insistent on making syntax do a job that it's not meant to do? If you could point out to me where in a reputable book on grammar by actual linguists (CGEL for example) it lists the rule by which "write a picture" can be judged ungrammatical, I would happily concede the point.

Go ahead and pick up any writing or grammar text written in the past 10 years. There's probably numerous sections on why word choice/collocation errors are real, accepted errors.

[Stealth Potato]

Originally Posted by Superhal

Go ahead and pick up any writing or grammar text written in the past 10 years. There's probably numerous sections on why word choice/collocation errors are real, accepted errors.

Errors, yes. Syntax errors, no.

EDIT: it strikes me that perhaps the root of this disagreement is that I've been using "grammar" to mean precisely "syntax," but you might mean it more broadly. I'd hoped this was implied when I drew the distinction between "language" and "grammar" wrt njtt's post, but if that's all this is about then I retract my belligerent corrections.

[Superhal]

Originally Posted by Stealth Potato

Errors, yes. Syntax errors, no.

EDIT: it strikes me that perhaps the root of this disagreement is that I've been using "grammar" to mean precisely "syntax," but you might mean it more broadly. I'd hoped this was implied when I drew the distinction between "language" and "grammar" wrt njtt's post, but if that's all this is about then I retract my belligerent corrections.

No problem.

[Stealth Potato]

Well, in my defense I'll only say that in linguistics, "grammar" usually does refer only to morphology and syntax. In my field (computer science, admittedly a bit removed from human linguistics), it does so exclusively.

[Polycarp]

Apropos "write a picture", following the katharevousa Greek idiom the proper verb for what an Eastern Orthodox iconographer does in creating one, which most of us would use "draw and paint" as the relevant verbs, is "to write an icon." The reference, as I understand it, is to the symbology appropriate to each saint's iconology.

Though a quite specialized usage, I'd have to say it is grammatically sound English.

[Superhal]

Originally Posted by Polycarp

...

Sigh.

[Stealth Potato]

Originally Posted by Superhal

Sigh.

I'm with Polycarp on this one. He said it was grammatically spund, and I completely agree.

[Superhal]

Originally Posted by Stealth Potato

I'm with Polycarp on this one. He said it was grammatically spund, and I completely agree.

I figured you would.

[Stealth Potato]

Notwithstanding that Polycarp's argument relates to Greek, I still challenge you to find any evidence of unspundness. I am quite sure none exists.

EDIT: of course now I see that Polycarp has corrected his post and thereby rendered me ridiculous.

[Superhal]

Originally Posted by Stealth Potato

Notwithstanding that Polycarp's argument relates to Greek, I still challenge you to find any evidence of unspundness. I am quite sure none exists.

Unspundification has a long history.

[Superhal]

Originally Posted by Superhal

Unspundification has a long history.

Found a cite:

http://www.aaargh.get.that.scary.twi...ay.from.me.com

[CalMeacham]

Originally Posted by Aspidistra

In modern English, if you "wreak" something, it's generally "havoc" (or possibly revenge). The only thing that can be "akimbo" is "arms". There's only "flotsam" where there's also "jetsam"

Is there a term for words like this that are solely or mainly used in just one context? And what are some more that people can think of?

Not true -- Legs can also be akimbo. I thought of naming a character "'Legs' Akimbo", but shortly afterwards, the comic strip Meek and Eek did just that.

[Zsofia]

She looks like Dick Cheney and Secretariat's baby.

I admit, I lol'ed.

[Superhal]

Originally Posted by Zsofia

I admit, I lol'ed.

Heh, I can't stop lol'ing actually.

Personal best thread ever.

[Colibri]

Originally Posted by Superhal

Had a long answer planned, but instead I'll just call you ignorant and advise you to check any grammar book about "word choice error" or "collocation error."

Originally Posted by Superhal

Sigh. Read my post above and follow the same instructions.

If you've never heard of either, I'd suggest dropping it now and calling it a loss.

Originally Posted by Superhal

Again, I would advise you to figure out what a "word choice error" and a "collocation error" are before you continue to embarrass yourself.

Moderator Note

Superhal, you can make your argument without resorting to so much snark and personal remarks. No warning issued, but let's dial it back.

Colibri
General Questions Moderator

[Wheelz]

Though you'll often find kits on their own, you'll never see a caboodle without one.

[Leo Bloom]

Originally Posted by troubledwater

I was just noticing today that "nigh" is usually preceded by "The end of the world is."

Well.

[Leo Bloom]

Originally Posted by Leaffan

Michelle, ma belle,
These are words that go together well.

[Keeve]

Originally Posted by Superhal

You can't write a picture, ...

Am I the only "Merkin who immediately thought of "writing an exam" upon reading this?

To Americans, if one can be said to "write an exam" at all, it is an action done by the teacher who designs the exam which the students will be tested with. To a Brit, I understand it to be a perfectly normal description of when the students do when the write down the answers to those questions.

In my opinion, it would be foolish to suggest that "write an exam" is acceptable grammar in England, but unacceptable grammar in the States. Rather, the grammar is acceptable in both places, but the usage is not found in the US. And by extension, "write a picture" would be acceptable grammar everywhere, but acceptable usage nowhere.

[BrotherCadfael]

If you ever hear the phrase "Bay of Pigs" without the word "fiasco" attached, it is a geographic reference.

[Leaffan]

Originally Posted by Keeve

Am I the only "Merkin who immediately thought of "writing an exam" upon reading this?

To Americans, if one can be said to "write an exam" at all, it is an action done by the teacher who designs the exam which the students will be tested with. To a Brit, I understand it to be a perfectly normal description of when the students do when the write down the answers to those questions.

In my opinion, it would be foolish to suggest that "write an exam" is acceptable grammar in England, but unacceptable grammar in the States. Rather, the grammar is acceptable in both places, but the usage is not found in the US. And by extension, "write a picture" would be acceptable grammar everywhere, but acceptable usage nowhere.

What? You don't write an exam in the US? What do you do?

[Colibri]

Originally Posted by Leaffan

What? You don't write an exam in the US? What do you do?

Take an exam.