People like Elliot Rodger need positive role models, but I don't know where they are

Last night I came across yet another sad internet posting from a teenager bemoaning her virginity, absence of a boyfriend, and her fear of never having one. It was a sad post, one revealing a ton of self-hatred and despair. The comments she received were overwhelmingly supportive. “Don’t worry! You’ll get a boyfriend one day!” and “You gotta love yourself before anyone else will love you, gurl!” were the most common responses.

Of course, I chimed in too. I told her that even if she never found a boyfriend, life would still be okay. And I said I was a testament to this. Remarkably, I was the only one who said anything like this. I don’t know if the OP read it or not. I hope so.

Naturally her post reminded me of current events and discussions here and elsewhere about how we could prevent the next Elliot Rodger.

I don’t think Elliot Rodger is emblematic of much. I’m kinda-sorta fine concluding he was a fucked-up dude who would have done what he did no matter what society or his family did. But I do find myself thinking about people who aren’t dangerous like he was, but who are still suffering from pain like his. These people can’t possibly be productive citizens if they are loaded down with that much misery. I think it’s in society’s bests interest to help them be as productive as they can be, even if they will never be criminal menaces.

Whenever I read articles like this or this or I have a suspicious encounter with someone, all I have to do is remember that Harriet Tubman went through a lot worse. And then I instantly feel better. When I’m the only woman in a staff meeting and I feel like my voice isn’t being heard, all I have to do is think of Cecilia Payne-Gaposchkin (thanks Neil degrasse Tyson!). And I feel better.

But there is no one* I can turn to when I experience that sense of alienation I feel when I’m around a bunch of people who are all married/been married or dating/seeing someone. This alienation happens more than I would like to admit, because I’m NEVER around people like me. When someone makes a “40-year-old virgin” joke within earshot or playfully teases a friend that “they need to get laid”…or when someone nudges me and asks if I’ve been on any hot dates lately, I have little in the way of a defense mechanism to counteract the negative feelings. I can’t ask myself “What would my hero X say in this situation?” because there is no X. All I can do is shrug it off and try not to dwell on it. But it sucks sometimes.

Most people can’t identify with these kinds of feelings. They think they can, because there was that one summer between the eleventh and twelve grades when they didn’t have a boyfriend. Or maybe they were a late-bloomer too, having been a 20-year-old virgin and all. But most people simply don’t know what it’s like to be in Elliot Rodger’s shoes, let alone someone older. So they don’t really know what to say to help people like this when they open up on the internet. What happens is you get a lot of “tough love” stuff that sounds good (“YOU GOTTA LOVE YOURSELF BEFORE ANYONE WILL LOVE YOU, GURRRL!!”) but none of it makes the alienation or the horrible feeling of being the “only one” go away. Sometimes people even scold the person for feeling bad about their situations, like they want the guy or girl to feel ashamed for being ashamed. Even the well-intentioned “Why should anyone care that anyone’s a virgin?!!?” is annoying.

So it should be no wonder to us why people turn to negative energy sources, where they are exposed to horrible ideas…which only convert their feelings of despair into rage.

What is needed are positive role models for folks who, for whatever reason, just aren’t in relationships. So-called losers who need someone like Harriet Tubman who can lead them to the underground railroad of self-acceptance and happiness. Other stigmatized groups have positive role models. So why shouldn’t everyone?

But it will never happen, I’m afraid. I know there are successful, smart, admirable, good-looking single people, but they don’t appear to live in Hollywood or any other place where celebrities are. Their stories aren’t found in People or Us. They may exist, but they sure don’t leave around a lot of positive imprints on the internet. Perhaps it’s because there aren’t a lot of cool people who are confident enough to go around announcing their romantic inexperience in public. And then there’s the uncomfortable fact that people like this truly *are *rare. Even many of the asexuals on AVEN are in relationships and aren’t virgins.

I guess all society can do is put all our hope in already strained mental health services and cross our fingers that this is enough for the lonely loner to feel better about their circumstances. But I’m very skeptical things will change.

Thanks for reading my long and rambling thoughts!

*Except for this badass

:dubious:

Maybe not in appearance but you have never struck me as different in a way that warranted feelings of being different. I have one or two close friends that could finish my sentences but the vast majority of people I know and hang around with are quiet different from me. We accept our differences. Carry-ins would really suck if we were all the same.

To your op, there are plenty of role models for late bloomers it’s just that the Hollywood elite make fun of them. I wasn’t getting any at 16 and it didn’t bother me then or now. The video of the recent mass-murderer was creepy. He was a good looking kid by any standard but he was scary and his roommates said basically the same thing. His brain was broken and there isn’t a good mechanism in society to fix people like that.

So do you know something about my life that I don’t know?

Because I’m being completely honest when I say there are no adults in my circle of real-life associates* who are not either married/divorced or currently dating/seeing someone. Out of everyone in my family, everyone I work with, everyone I come into contact on a regular basis, I am the only person who is alone in quite this way. Since I don’t know that many people, this really shouldn’t be that hard to believe.

You’ve apparently acquired omniscience since the last time we tangled, so I’m curious who you think I’m overlooking.

*I love you folks. But when I talk about people I’m “around”, I’m not including disembodied voices from the internet.

I agree that it’s quite isolating and not really addressed with a sympathetic ear, but on a practical level I’m not entirely sure what sort of role model would apply. There are the late-bloomers (not a great euphemism, but it’ll have to do), but they have bloomed; in so doing they’ve sort of left the rest of us behind. And then there are the people who are long-term unattached and don’t care; but then if they truly don’t care they’re not going to go around telling anyone and so we wouldn’t know if they’re role models or not. It’s sort of like proving a negative; there doesn’t seem to be a way of celebrating something not happening.

At any given time, I know people who are not in a romantic relationship. I have little doubt that they’ll start one someday, though, and probably soon. It seems to be a skill so elemental that they can’t even put it into words, and so impenetrable that some of us can’t explain what we’re missing.

I’m hesitant to address this because I am not in the mood for an argument. But it’s amusing you would post something like this after having read the OP (assuming you did). It is this exact attitude that I see all the time on the internet: the inability to validate what someone expresses as their own feelings. Essentially telling someone they are crazy for feeling a certain way, when you haven’t walked in their shoes and don’t even know them.

But I can tell you don’t intend rudeness, so I can’t even be that mad. So I’m just going to leave it at that and hope no one else drops a rolly-eye at me in this thread.

You and I are both single surrounded by family and friends who are married. You see them as different from you and I don’t.Since you started with a conversation about the crazy guy who killed people because he didn’t get any sex you made it sound as if you were an island unto yourself. I’m just stating that you don’t strike me as different from other people. Just the opposite. We love you right back just the way you are and the people around you probably feel the same way.

It’s hard to get the feel of a conversation in these kinds of threads but I didn’t want you to feel you’re as isolated as you make it sound.

I was almost 30 and the only girlfriend I’d ever had was during my senior year of college, and she was someone who was desperately looking for a husband and equated marrying a college graduate with security. I was desperate for company, but after a few months realized keeping it going wasn’t fair to either of us. I then went 7 years averaging less than a date per year, including more than two years with no dates at all. My closest friends were either married or dating. I was told often by people not in a position to date me that I was a great catch, but that tended to just make me feel worse. I concluded that there was something seriously wrong with me that made women not be interested in me. I believed I was trapped in a miserable existence, even though I was having plenty of early career success. I finally had a girlfriend about the time I turned 30, but my lack of dating experience, insecurity, and resultant clinginess (along with her not knowing what she wanted) sent her running after a few months. That made me feel worse; I then believed that anyone my age was likely to have way more relationship experience and be turned off by my lack thereof. At 30, I gave up ever being in a long term relationship. I figured I may as well learn to live with it. I remember being in a therapy group where I was the only male. Every time I heard how many women there were who would love to date me. Where were these women, I asked. My past experience told me they didn’t know what they were talking about.

I always believed was a good person, but I didn’t believe there were enough women out there who wanted anything I had to offer for me to have a realistic chance of meeting one. Keep in mind I was living in NYC at the time, not the conservative small town I grew up in. Folks who have read my posts on relationship/dating topics may remember that I did meet someone and have been married for a long time. But this isn’t a “there’s hope for everyone since it happened to me” post; it’s an “I remember what it was like” post. I was never a danger to anyone or myself, but I remember the pain. For around 15 years it consumed me. It was the monkey on my back, the hellhound on my trail, my kryptonite. I wish I could tell those who are experiencing it now how to escape it, but I can’t. Even my wife, since she had long term relationships and had no trouble finding men who were interested in her (for good reason), doesn’t really get it. She knows I was in pain, and she’s glad she has helped me heal.

So those who are now where I was, I remember. I hope you all find what, or who, it is you need. Those of you who haven’t gone years thinking you weren’t who anyone was looking for, it’s hard (if not impossible) to understand.

This thread isn’t about me. I mentioned myself in the OP to establish my first-hand familiarity with the feelings that some people, including Elliot Rodger, feel on a regular basis but don’t feel comfortable talking about. And why don’t they feel comfortable? Because most people are unable to understand how crappy it is to always feel like a giant weirdo loser because you are alone, so they say unhelpful things. And guess what? You’re illustrating this ineptness, right on cue.

I can’t say anything as noncontroversial as “I feel alienated sometimes” without some guy arguing with me over whether I am justified in feeling this way.

I’m not about to shoot up a crowd of people or fling myself off a bridge or anything, so I don’t need you reminding me how loved I am here. I appreciate the thought, really. But the thread isn’t about me.

Your “for whatever reason” covers some huge differences. For instance, the person who is “between relationships” and has a hard time being alone, the person who has never been in a relationship but desperately wants one, and the person who would be perfectly happy being single if it weren’t for (fill in the blank) have very different situations and need very different sorts of help.

My friend’s daughter is omni-sexual (self described). She is a college student. But the thing about her that might interest you is that the college she attends has a group for asexual students (not that you are asexual, but rather, that the school has a group of people who aren’t busy talking about partnering up - at least not at that moment in their lives).

No, hazards of the internet. you can’t say you feel alienated sometimes without someone giving you a bit of encouragement even if it’s not about you. It’s not an argument, it’s human nature. You yourself mentioned you did the same thing to the person you responded to on another thread.

but enough about you. I’ll repeat my original response to what you said. There are role models out there but they’re made fun of in popular media. Tebow was crucified for his beliefs (kind of a theme in there somewhere). We glorify the most obnoxious people on earth and let anybody with an ounce of role model fall to the curb.

Yeah I agree with this. There’s a big difference between a young man and his sex drive and the people he’s surrounded by and his desires to try stuff out, and someone like me who’s older, female and has been there and is done with it. I could say all day long that I’m cool with being single and the prospect of not experiencing love but I don’t feel that there’s any way I could empathize with a kid like Rodger.

Saying to a kid like that “you can be alone and it’ll be ok” is just as weird and condescending as saying to people like me or monstro “you will find someone!” It’s just off the mark.

I think whatever he was feeling might even come down to basic hormones. And you can’t really persuade against that.

I think there is a lack of understanding from people who haven’t experienced it. I think it can be worse if they believe you’re decent looking, likable, and gainfully employed. The thing is whether or not they think you’re a person who should be alone, you still are (I don’t specifically mean you, Monstro). I was lucky to have friends who would listen, but they didn’t get it and I’m sure they got tired of hearing it.

Well, if all a person said was “you can be alone and it’ll be ok”, yes, it would be weird. How about if they said, “I know how it feels to be so unhappy and lonely and depressed. Lord knows I’ve experienced it before and I still experience it now sometimes. But you know what? I am living your “worse nightmare” and it isn’t as bad as you think it is. I have interests and hobbies. I travel and do things that my friends with SO’s never get a chance to do, because they are tied down to responsibilities that I don’t have. So definitely go out there and get what you want out of life, but also remember that you can find happiness no matter what your love life is like.”

A role model doesn’t have to model one’s life exactly to be inspiring. Even if a guy desperately wants a girl, just knowing that there’s a “cool guy” out there who is living his life happily without a SO may ease the pressure for him to shed the “loser” label.

If I can’t wear a smile when I’m around folk, I stay to myself. I think I am able to maintain a positive glow most of the time. Strangely, coworkers come to vent to me more than anyone else, it seems.

But I find that it’s best that I not share my own feelings to others (outside my therapist and you guys, on occasion :)). Because other people, as hard as they try, can’t really get what I’m laying down most of the time. I can say it sucks to be the “weird” one in a group, and they’ll do the faux-innocent “Why do you think you’re weird, honey?” thing where I have to awkwardly pretend they didn’t call me a giant weirdo just the other day. (Which totally reminds me of this recent Louis C.K. ‘Fat Girl’ episode). And this is with women, who tend to be good with emotional stuff and aren’t into “bro, have even touched a girl?” type humor.

I can’t imagine a guy trying to have this kind of conversation with guys. So it doesn’t surprise me at all that a guy would flip out on the world. You bottle your feelings up long enough and you will eventually explode.

Heck, just interview married people. For reasons I’ve never understood I’m the secret keeper for a boat load of people. And there are quite a few men and women who have told me they wish they stayed single. They love their kids and spouse but if they had it to do over again they’d opt out.

I understand the feelings people have of loneliness but the grass is not always greener on the other side. I for one like being single.

That probably would help some folks. Maybe it has something to do with why they want a SO, and how strong the want is (I won’t call it a need; I would have survived if I had remained alone). Is the “cool guy” single by choice? It sounds like someone who’s made his peace with not having a partner. Don’t know if I would have ever gotten there or not,.but I can see such a person being a positive role model. Don’t know if would make a difference for someone who’s really desperately lonely, though.

Yeah, but there’s a bit of a double-edged sword to that. It’s nice to go to the movies whenever I want, see what I want to see, sit where I want, get just the right amount of butter on my popcorn and no ice in the soda, but it would be nice to have someone to talk to after it’s over, too.

Your premise is wrong. I think it is a mistake to think Rodger’s breakdown was only about lack of sex and romantic relationships (being single). Social bonding and meaningful personal interaction, however minimal, is a fundamental part of the human existence for the vast majority of people, loners included.

Being a loner and social outcast is a generally unhealthy and even crippling condition, so no positive role models can exist.

I think there are people out there that you could consider asexual/celibacy role models.
For example:

Isaac Newton is widely believed to have died a virgin.

J.M. Barrie (creator of Peter Pan) was married but apparently never consummated the marriage.
According to one of the kids he raised after their parents died, he did not seem to be sexually interested in anyone (male or female, adult or child).

Pope Francis had a girlfriend as a teenager, but apparently felt that he had more important things to do than get married. I would expect there are many examples of priests and nuns who have been celibate for life.

However, I do agree that the incident with Rodgers was not just about celibacy. It sounds like he was very mentally unstable and that girls were avoiding him because they could tell something wasn’t right with him. The celibacy was a consequence of the insanity, rather than a cause of the insanity.