So I've been reading a lot of Epic Fantasy lately

((Game of Thrones, The First Law, The Name of the Wind, Mistborn, Dragonbone Chair, Wheel of Time))
I enjoyed epic fantasy as a kid and read a lot of it, but time passed and I moved on to other things. A couple of years ago I started taking the train to work, and after a ten-plus year hiatus, I picked it up again. I like reading a nice swashbuckling Epic Fantasy on the train; don’t know why. I’ve also read a bunch of fantasy that I don’t consider to fit in the Epic Fantasy genre – The Curse of Chalion, several Neil Gaiman books, Among Others (Jo Walton), lots of Terry Pratchet. In the interest of figuring out what to read next, and saving some of you from bad books, here’s a breakdown of the true Epic Fantasy series I’ve read in the last few years:

A Song of Ice and Fire, George R.R. Martin – I picked up Game of Thrones back in winter/spring 2011 when I heard that HBO was getting ready to put out a show of the series. This was what really got me re-started on epic fantasy a few years ago. I’d heard good things about it and wanted to check it out before a TV audience got their hands on it. Not gonna discuss it at length here: we’ve all read it. [ul][li]Good: moral ambiguity; eschews many tired fantasy tropes; engaging story; writing style is clearly targeted at grown-ups[]Bad: later books in severe need of editor, scissors; it starts to seem like Martin doesn’t know where he’s going with the story; Martin is about 800 pounds and looks 20 years older than he is, and at the rate he’s going, he’ll be dead before he finishes the series[]Rating: 8/10[/ul][/li]
The First Law, Joe Abercrombie – The next series I picked up after the GoT series. I kind of regret it, because it was mostly downhill after this. One problem I have with the entire genre is that magic breaks plots. Most authors deal with this by having their wizard say “ah, I could teleport the macguffin here right now, but it is your destiny to climb Mount Nastypants to retrieve it, young hero-of-mysterious-parentage, and I cannot interfere with fate.” And that’s bullshit. Whereas in The First Law trilogy, the greatest wizard in the land responds “I don’t fucking know how to do that, asshole. Why don’t YOU conjure the macguffin here with your fucking smart mouth?” A lot of authors try to inject comic relief with a modern sense of humor, like the genie from Disney’s Aladdin, which breaks the setting for me. But Abercrombie’s occasional dry humor manages to fit in with the setting perfectly. [ul][li]Good: flawed, interesting protagonists; great occasional humor; tight, non-rambling storytelling (I’m looking at you, GRRM); also clearly written for grown-ups[]Bad: Some parts suffer from Raiders of the Lost Ark syndrome (I.e. if you think about it too hard, you realize that nothing the protagonists did actually affected the outcome in any way); magic system is still somewhat plot-breaking []Rating: 9/10[/ul][/li]
The Kingkiller Chronicle, Patrick Rothfuss – AKA The Name of the Wind. Another pretty good series, this one’s a bildungsroman. Probably the best magic system of any on this list, it actually goes into some pretty serious detail about how it all works. In most of these works, the magic will be something like “The protagonist-of-mysterious-parentage focused his energies, and suddenly the troll-ogre-goblin burst into flames. The old sorceress turned to him and exclaimed that he was the chosen one!” But here, Rothfuss actually shows the effort involved in the magic, and creates a system where it makes sense that magic doesn’t solve all problems. [ul][li]Good: non-plot-breaking magic system; fun setting; well-written dialogue[]Bad: most characters are pretty two-dimensional, including protagonist who seems to have no faults/flaws; series is incomplete, and author is writing novellas in the universe of the trilogy instead of actually completing the trilogy []Rating: 8/10[/ul][/li]
Mistborn, Brandon Sanderson – Overrated. There, I said it. Everyone said this was the modern LoTR, the era-defining epic fantasy series for this generation. But it’s really not. Let’s get right to the…[ul][li]Good: Okay, the magic system had some novel concepts. And there was ONE interesting plot twist, re the bad guy turning out to be a not-so-bad guy.[]Bad: all the characters were boring; the protagonist spends way too much time mooning about feelings; the antagonists all suffer from roll-eyes classic genre arrogance; huge swaths of the plot make zero sense in retrospect, and Sanderson spends a good quarter of the series lampshading; the second book was blatant filler, and should have been condensed down to three paragraphs in the third book to make this a two-book series []Rating: 3/10[/ul][/li]
Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn, Tad Williams – AKA The Dragonbone Chair. After Mistborn, I wanted something guaranteed. I’d heard that The Dragonbone Chair was a classic, and was partial inspiration for A Song of Ice and Fire. Hoo boy, this one is a kick. It’s like Williams wanted to compress all of the classic epic fantasy tropes into one series, and end up with the distilled and concentrated essence of Epic Fantasy that you can keep in your freezer and mix with three cans of water to make a normal epic fantasy series. He’s got the protagonist-of-mysterious-parentage. He’s got the aloof elves in a land of dying magic. He’s got the sword of power. He’s got the ambiguously magical mentor who dies in chapter six to save the progatonist. He’s got the wily gnome sidekick. He’s got the princess in disguise. He’s even got the evil bald advisor to the king who dabbles in dark magic. Look, I guess you could say that it’s the inspiration that the rest of the genre drew from, but you’d be wrong. The first book was published in 1988. I cannot fathom why this is considered such a big deal. [ul][li]Good: I guess if you’re into that sort of thing? []Bad: Nothing interesting or different at all; three quarters of the book are descriptions of the protagonist’s dreams, which seem like possibly foreshadowing or perhaps even magical prophesying, but aren’t; disappointing conclusion in which it’s unclear what the protagonists even did that saved the day; so much waffling around and filler waiting for plot to happen []Rating: 2/10[/ul][/li]
The Wheel of Time, Robert Jordan – This is another classic: another one considered genre-defining. I’m currently on book three. I’m enjoying it, though I don’t know if I’m going to do fourteen fucking books of this. This one also has all the standard fantasy stuff (protagonist-of-mysterious-parentage; aloof elves in land of dying magic, etc.), but Jordan seems to mix things up enough that I actually care about the characters and plot. Obviously, with fourteen books, a lot of it is going to be filler. But so far, Jordan seems to be doing a good job of making it interesting filler with actual plot and character development. [ul][li]Good: it’s fun. I know it seems to suffer from a lot of the same problems as Tad Williams, but at least this one’s entertaining[]Bad: weak/simplistic writing style often feels like it’s trying to be a Young Adult novel (in fairness, back in the '80s and '90s genre fantasy was often considered to have a primarily YA audience); Jordan can’t write women for shit. They’re all either distant Ice Queens, or weak simpering idiots. If I make it that far, I’m hoping Sanderson does a better job; magic system that manages to occasionally break the plot, and still occasionally be broken by the plot; plot occasionally driven by characters getting a distant look in their eyes and saying “we have to do XYZ because of fate” with no further explanation []Rating: 6/10[/ul][/li]
Sorry if this is a little bloggy. What am I missing with my discussions of these series? What should I read when I finish (or get tired of) Wheel of Time? Where is the charm in The Dragonbone Chair? Is there anything out there as good as The First Law trilogy?

You ever read the Thieve’s World series?

Reminds me of when Dr. Strange was in the Avengers. “Can you teleport us out?” “Nope”…“Can you fly us out?” “I can levitate, but I can’t fly you all out”

Um, the protagonist is rife with flaws. One of the most frustrating things about the character is how often he screws himself due to his lack of patience, and the way he flat-out refuses to acknowledge it.

Thanks for the post! My journey back into fantasy novels is quite similar to yours. I do plenty of reading on the L. I most recently finished book 2 of the Stormlight Archive by Sanderson. It looks like I enjoyed the Mistborn series more than you. There are definitely some parrellels in the magic systems between the two universes, which you might find mildly annoying. However, I’d say enjoyed the Stormlight series quite a bit. One definite negative: Sanderson only recently finished book 2, and it will be quite some time before book 3 shows up.

I found myself mostly enjoying A Land Fit for Heroes by Richard K. Morgan (currently comprising two books, with a third out in October), but also kind of reluctant to recommend them to people. A lot of that will depend on how the final bit ends up, but there’s some indication that the main character is going to end up being some kind of sorcerous evil overlord despite his own inclinations. The books are generally well written but contain an absolute ton of sex, violence, violent sex and sexual violence, which is why I wouldn’t suggest 'em to my book club.

Maybe not so much epic, but I’m really enjoying the Locke Lamora series by…oh, Google it. I forget. It’s more of a lighthearted Oceans’ Eleven in a vaguely magical alternate medieval Venitian setting than it is Epic Fantasy, but it’s good. It’s a nice, refreshing change of pace, and the writing’s not half bad.

I think you’ve covered most of the real, serious, modern Epics (apart from LOTR, of course) that I can think of offhand. Oh, avoid that one series…crap. What was it called? Terry Goodkind. The series that starts with Wizard’s First Rule. It’s bad. Don’t bother.

Scott Lynch’s The Lies of Locke Lamora is excellent. Red Seas Under Red Skies was also quite good. I wasn’t as crazy about the third one in the series; the author wrote it after or in the middle of a bout of severe depression, and a lot of the book felt to me like writing it was therapy for him, which is all to the good, except that it distracted from the awesome.

I agree with this. . . he’s pretty much a gifted screw-up. . . and his current self, Kote, is near suicidal and depressed. Hardly flawless.

Great thread, thanks. Gonna check out The First Law when I’m done with Mistborn.

He’s also more than a little full of himself. He mouths off when he shouldn’t and expects others to recognize and support his talent.

Malazan Book of the Fallen by Steven Erikson. HUGE 10-(BIG)-volume epic that makes ASOIAF and WOT look like Harry Potter. First book is Gardens of the Moon.

I’ve been reading the Riyria Revelations by Michael J. Sullivan. I’m enjoying it a great deal. Solid characters and an interesting plot.

Hmm, well you didn’t say whether you’ve read Tolkien or not but if you haven’t, you can’t get any more epic fantasy than that.

I’ve still dabble but have mostly gotten away from fantasy in the last 15 years or so. But based on some of the things you’ve liked and didn’t like about other series, I do have a few recommendations:
**
Barbara Hambly - The Darwath Trilogy, Dragonsbane**
Some of the first fantasy books I read, The Darwath Trilogy was about 2 Californians who accidentally cross into another world and become trapped there. It’s pretty much medieval technology level, no laser swords or anything, and it’s written in a gritty, realistic style that I really liked. Magic is something very rare and costly in terms of what it does to you and what it takes to control and shape it. There’s a lot of interesting conflict between the church (modeled after the Roman Catholic church), and the magicians they persecute. The original trilogy is Time of the Dark, The Walls of Air, and The Armies of Daylight. There were some later sequels, some of which are decent, and some are not as good.
Dragonsbane has the same style of writing and might be set on the same world, but doesn’t have the Earth crossover. Again, there were several sequels of varying quality, but the original was best.
**
J.V. Jones - The Bakers Boy trilogy, The Barbed Coil, others**
Jones writes medieval fantasies with a gritty, sharp edge. Her books tend to be a little on the darker side, with plenty of intrigue and interesting plotlines and characters. She doesn’t have too many of the usual fantasy stereotypes. The Sull, for example are obviously (to me) supposed to be based on Elves, but they’re much darker, more mysterious, and seem to have a lot of elements of Native Americans mixed in. I’ve really enjoyed her books and would recommend all of them.

If you like humorous fantasy, I really liked Gerg Costikyan’s Another Day, Another Dungeon, and its sequel One Quest, Hold the Dragons. Very funny and intelligently written fantasy parody. Unfortunately, the third book never came out and the series is unfinished. Each book does stand alone to a point, but there’s no conclusion. If you can accept that, these books are highly recommended.

somewhat unconventional, but Clive Barker’s Weaveworld is as much fantasy/magic as it is horror, maybe more so. It is one of my all time favorite books and I’ve read it at least a half a dozen times.
Not strictly fantasy, The Cyberiad by Stansilaw Lem is a series of parables involving intelligent robots that seems to be patterned after Greek/Roman mythology. Very funny and different.

Eyes of the Dragon is one of my favorite Steven King books, and is a fantasy classic IMO.

I’d avoid anything by Dave Eddings, Terry Goodkind, and pretty much all of the Dungeons and Dragons and Forgotten Realms series (especially anything written by Ed Greenwood). It’s been ages since I’ve read The Dragonbone Chair, but Tad Williams also has a cyberpunk fantasy series called Otherland that is pretty good. People jacking into virtual reality and all sorts of crazy virtual worlds. It’s not perfect, but contains some really cool stuff.

I like the Paksennarion series by Elizabeth Moon; sometimes described as “a paladin done right”.

The Curse of Chalion by Lois McMaster Bujold and its sequels are excellent; the second book The Paladin of Souls being the best I think.

Nitpick: It’s my understand that they and most of his other works are in the same universe; it’s just that the apparent rules of magic change from world to world due to different fragments of the original “God” influencing each world.

As well, certain characters cross from world to world. It makes for some nice Easter eggs for those who pay close attention (or those who surf the web and find others who paid closer attention).

I recommend Lynn Flewelling’s The Tamír Triad (The Bone Doll’s Twin; Hidden Warrior;The Oracle’s Queen). The main character has the most disturbing/heartbreaking origin story of any fantasy series I’ve ever read, but despite being horrified, I read on and was rewarded for it.

Joe Abercrombie’s Best Served Cold.

An awesome book. It’s a stand alone, although The Heroes is sort of a sequel.

Thanks for the suggestions everybody.

To those taking exception with my criticism of Kvothe from The Kingkiller Chronicles, again, I loved the books and struggled to think of something for the “bad” category. I stand by my criticism that most of the characters lack depth, though I concede that Rothfuss does attempt to give Kvothe some flaws. He just doesn’t succeed quite as much as I’d like – most of the flaws are not flaws.

Apocalypso - Loved Eyes of the Dragon when I was a kid. It’s funny you recommend avoiding David Eddings, because I absolutely loved Belgariad when I was about 10 years old, and probably read through the whole series three times. Yes, I’ve read Tolkien.

Der Trihs - I read The Curse of Chalion during my current epic fantasy kick (see the OP), but I didn’t include it in my main list because it didn’t really feel like epic fantasy. It felt more like historical fiction with maybe two or three slightly magical moments thrown in. Don’t get me wrong: I enjoyed the hell out of it. It just didn’t feel like it fit on this list. I was halfway through it before I was informed of the parallels to Fifteenth Century Spain, and that just blew my mind.

Again thanks for the suggestions everyone. I’m interested to hear if people had similar experiences to mine with regard to the books in the OP.

So Jim Butcher is best known right now for The Dresden Files. It is a long series of mostly stand-alone novels. Not usually considered Epic Fantasy, more Urban Fantasy, but the power levels are higher than for typical Urban Fantasy. I have been liking them a lot and strongly recommend them, with the proviso that the first couple of books are the author’s first and it shows. They get better pretty quickly.

On the other hand. Butcher also has a series out called the **Codex Alera **series, which is a completed 6 book series. It is a little tighter than Dresden Files and has a much more consistent writing level throughout. It is also much more a traditional Epic Fantasy. I recommend that as well.

Rothfuss has given Kvothe plenty of flaws - but not necessarily the ones that he believes Kvothe has. I’d say that Kvothe’s failure to treat his love interest Denna like she has any agency says all sorts of bad things about him, but I’m not sure if the narrative will eventually back me up on that.

I just got done reading those Joe Abercrombie novels and damn. They were well written, but I felt like I needed to scrub my brain afterwards. It’s almost as if there’s some sort of competition among fantasy authors to see who can deconstruct and piss on the whole “knight in shining armor” thing the most and Abercrombie wants the prize. Everyone in authority is venal, corrupt, and ineffective, every effort at kindness backfires, everyone’s disfigured and in constant physical pain, and any effort to improve anything not only fails miserably but ends up making things even worse. I can understand trying to get a little bit of realism into fantasy, but it was way, way too far in the other direction of making everything squalid and horrible.

Been reading the Game of Thrones series for close to 15 years and I’ve avoided the TV version. It’s frustrating waiting several years for each book to come out and it’s clear his publishers aren’t whipping him into shape and cutting the page count down so they can actually print the things in paperback without them bursting at the seams.

It’s not very similar to Game of Thrones but I really recommend Robin Hobb’s Liveship Traders trilogy. It’s set upon sailing ships in a sort of pre-gun era in terms of technology- decent look at the society and class but without the ruthless murders of Song of Ice and Fire. Incredibly well thought out premise overall, not always the best writing but ten times less filler than George RR Martin. The ‘magic’ is handled very well, it’s like a blend of old fairy tale powers with medieval technology- I’m the kind of person who thinks the magic element in Game of Thrones is too strong but this is something I can really get behind. There’s around ten books set in the same or similar universe and I must get round to reading them.

**Avoid **the infamous Gardens of the Moon by Steven Erikson, the writing is so far up the authors arse and the gobbledy gook magic system is off the richter scale.