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#1
06-12-2001, 01:38 PM
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In a world where there are so many options as to religion and spiritualty, there seems to be a lot of tolerance for each person's beliefs. Everyone is "entitled to their own opinions" and "has a right to worship how they will". Why, then, despite all the religions and spiritual groups, is Christianity still looked down upon and even hated? Each of these religeous groups has their fair share of self-righteous preachers and hypocrites, so that can not be the reason. And even so, aren't they just "practicing their right to their chosen lifestyle"? Is this unjustice, my imagination, or Biblical prophecy coming true?
__________________
The man who first threw an insult instead of a stone, was the founder of civilization. - Sigmund Freud Nothing worse could happen to one than to be completely understood. -Carl Gustav Jung If you know me so well then tell me which hand I use. -Tori Amos 
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#3
06-12-2001, 01:59 PM
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I have to second andros's motion, SPM. Can you provide examples of hatred of Christianity in mainstream America without resorting to Urban Legends? And remember that actual religious persecution is something on the order of cross-burning and making people wear yellow stars, not something you heard on the bus or the Constitutional separation of church and state.
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#4
06-12-2001, 01:59 PM
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I've met a few people who've had problems with Judaism.
I've also met a few people - some of them Jews - who've had serious issues with Islam. Tell me - have you tried being a Buddhist in China? A Pagan in sudan? A Hindu in Afganistan? Are you even aware that there's a world outside your predominantly Christian country?
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#6
06-12-2001, 02:12 PM
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Examples:
1. Ask a christain highschool student who openly displays their religion for examples. 2. Do you feel that Buddhists, Krishnas, Hindus, Occultists, Spiritualists, Islamics, and New Age (etc) are overtly mocked for their beliefs as much as Christianity? 3. Do you honestly feel that Christianity is accepted as any other religion? I stated in my post that I may be wrong-that it may not be put down more than other belief systems, but it seems to be at times. Re-read my question before you answer, please. I am coming at this from an unbiased point of veiw.
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#7
06-12-2001, 02:13 PM
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Nope...don't see it. At least not in this country. I wouldn't want to be Christian in Saudi Arabia, or China, or back in the Soviet Union under Stalin, but being Christian in 21st century America wouldn't be so bad. I mean, according to the CIA world factbook, 84% of the population is Christian (56% Protestant, 28% Catholic), every American president has been, at least nominally, Christian, Christian holidays are publicly celebrated, and so on. So, I guess I'll ask the scourge of Great Debates.
Cite?
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#8
06-12-2001, 02:19 PM
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"Do you honestly feel that Christianity is accepted as any other religion?"
—Ummm, the laws in the U.S. are largely based on Christian principles. Every U.S. president (and vice president) has been a Christian. Just about every city has Christian TV networks and radio stations. I'd pretty much say it's an "accepted" religion in the U.S. Now, on the other hand, try being an open atheist (not on the SDMB, that is) and see how far you'll get . . .
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#10
06-12-2001, 02:48 PM
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Quote:
which shows, that of the 1,411 incidents of hate crimes with Religios bias reported, Anti-Jewish accounted for 1,109, Anti Islamic were 32, anti atheism/agnosticism etc was another 4, leaving a total of 84 anti Christian (lumping Catholics and Protestants together, much to their dismay, I'm sure), and 151 "other", and 31 "multi" So, perhaps your premise is flawed?
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#11
06-12-2001, 02:55 PM
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When the Dahli Lama spoke to the Minnesota legislator, one legislator called the religion a cult, and invalid and the Dahli Lama's address inappropriate. Most people though he was a kook, but Buddhism was certainly "overtly mocked" and the legislator did have his supporters.
Wiccans (Pagans, New Agers, but specifically Wiccans) have had their right to practice their religion with in the military challanged. Mainstream politicians have question whether their religion is one, and have questioned its right to First Amendment protection. Shirley McLaine is regularly mocked for her spirituality. When we discovered Nancy Regan was consulting an astrologer, or that Hillary Clinton was discussing her issues with Eleanor Roosevelt, those women and those practices were mocked. (And Hillary wasn't even holding seances, she was just asking WWED.) When the Oklahoma City bombing first occurred, we suspected, guess what, Islamic Fundies. Ask Christian high school students who are anything other than Christian if they are mocked for their beliefs - yes. Especially in the wake of Columbine, Goths (who are often Pagan) were subjected to ridicule and worse. Christianity in this country is accepted far more than any other religion - honestly and without a doubt. For one, most people are Christians, implying some sort of acceptance of the belief system.
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#12
06-12-2001, 03:27 PM
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This, on a day when the Supreme Court re-affirmed the right of Christian groups to meet for organized worship in facilities open to the public. Quote:
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#13
06-12-2001, 04:03 PM
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#14
06-12-2001, 05:11 PM
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You're quite right Solarphallusman, Christianity is probably the most hated religion in America. I don't want to imply that all members of other religions are tolerant and enlightened, but they are less politically powerful. Yes, Christians are hated because they:
1. Use their political power to attempt to foist their beliefs on the rest of society. 2. Actively try to restrict the rights of person's whose life choices don't match theirs. 3. Obnoxiously attempt to recruit others to their beliefs and heap abuse and contempt on anyone who refuses. 4. Do all of the above while pretending that they are discriminated against. So yes, a lot of people hate Christians. Whose fault is that? Are Christians discriminated against in American society? H Hardly.
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#15
06-12-2001, 05:13 PM
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Quote:
I did hear about a Jewish kid getting picked on for his Star of David though... Quote:
Quote:
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#16
06-12-2001, 05:20 PM
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Here in li'l old Pottstown, PA, pop. about 20,000, the phone book lists some 150 Christian churches of various denominations; these appear to be popular and function without any interference from the authorities, or from any groups in opposition to Christianity. I cannot recall any pogroms being carried out against Christians anywhere in the USA in my 47 years, so frankly, I have no idea what you are going on about. Could you perhaps restate your OP so that we know what it is you are getting at?
__________________
I love you, El_Kabong
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#17
06-12-2001, 05:52 PM
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SPM, this must be what you're referring to, right?
***TPCN - The Pagan Cable Network*** PROGRAM LISTINGS 12 noon: Midday News with Beowulf and Owlheart Special feature: "The Pushers in Your Neighborhood" - Sidewalk evangelists are no longer just an inner city problem. How to protect you and your family. 1:00 pm: The Pandora Starshine Show (daytime talk) Today: Militant, Abortion-Clinic Bombing, Snake-Handling, Flesh-Mortifying, Doomsday-Preaching, Gay-Bashing, Pagan-Hating Christian Cult teens, and the parents who fear for their lives. 2:00 pm: Edge of the Millenium (daytime drama) Morgana is held prisoner by a pair of psychotic Jehovahs Witnesses; Merlin's Pagan Publishing is in danger of a hostile takeover by Christian Coloring Books; Detective Brigit McCool comes another step closer to tracking down the renegade priest cult, Sons of the Apocalypse. 3:00 pm: Coyote Brubeck (daytime talk) Today: Mixed marriages. Wiccans married to lapsed Catholics duke it out with their in-laws. 4:00 pm: After School Special: "Return of the Witch-Burners" (movie) The teens of Rowan Grove save the town from a new Inquisition 5:30 pm: My Mother The Icon (comedy) When Freddys' mother is reincarnated as a statue of the Virgin Mary, he has to explain to his covens' High Priest why there is a Catholic Shrine in the TV room. (Pilot Episode). 6:00 pm: Buffy the Baptist Slayer (drama) On the eve of the Junior Prom, Buffy's best friend is abducted by the Born-Agains, intent on converting her to the minions of the Undead. 7:00 pm: Barbara, the Teenage Catholic (comedy) Laughs ensue when Barbara has to answer to accusations of cheating on her Math finals when, in answer to a prayer, Jesus slips into the classroom and does her entire test for her, giving her a perfect score. 7:30 pm: All in the Coven (comedy) The Banquo household is turned upside down when that lovable pagan bigot, Acheron, seethes like a cauldron after Eden welcomes the new Presbyterians next door and invites them over for dinner. 8:00 pm: The X-tian Files (drama) When the residents of a small remote village begin crucifying themselves with nail-guns, agents Cinnabar and Patchouli suspect a cabal of spirit-filled Baptists casting evil prayers upon the townspeople. 9:00 pm: Movie: The Denomination (Horror) Four young girls dabble in Christianity, with predictably horrific results. (Not recommended for children) ******************************************************** For those of you who are humor-impaired, this is a joke! 
__________________
Better a bleeding heart than none at all!
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#18
06-12-2001, 06:50 PM
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No discussion like this would be complete without the obligatory LIOACA link post.
ObLIOACA: Life in our Anti-Christian America There!
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#19
06-12-2001, 07:10 PM
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If I wasn't feeling so warm and cuddly I might suggest that the ferocity of the response to the OP counts as a self-fulfilling cite. It might not. If you responded to the OP in anger, though, for whatever reason, you have had an experience that should prove interesting to the honest. Speaking as a Christian I should mention that it is hard to stand up for what you believe in, because that almost always involves doing it against those who disagree, often violently. It doesn't make any difference whether you are part of a religion that can be handily perceived as part of the establishment... all that matters is the spiritual situation around you, and those who respond. You can't start a cite-driven debate about spiritual matters: I mean, I try to do it all the time and fail, because it simply doesn't work that way! I have been persecuted, stigmatised, and abused for my beliefs in my university: and I'm in the faculty of Divinity. SPM was asking, really, in his guts, if he was the only one who felt persecuted as a Christian. He is not. Neither is true Christianity something, or true persecution, something that can be measured.
SPM for what it's worth I know exactly where you're coming from and you may as well get used to it. It's just you, me, and everybody else.
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#20
06-12-2001, 07:20 PM
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Let's see, instead of actual data, facts, cites, newsreports to support the premise of the OP, Ross believes that it's the tone of the responses that demonstrates the validity? wow.
I haven't seen any OP in GD that started off with unsupported speculation that didn't get repeated attempts from other posters asking for 'cite?' or evidence? Why? well, golly gees. if we can't see what the OP is talking about, how are we to formulate a response? Can't answer for anyone else, but my post was not done in anger, was, IMHO, polite in tone, just pointed out that available data didn't support their premise.
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#21
06-12-2001, 07:29 PM
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Brother Ross, could you provide:
Examples of hatred of Christianity please? And then examples of mainstream hatred of Christianity please? And go ahead and demonstrate that Christianity is more hated than other religions while you're at it. Thanks.
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#22
06-12-2001, 07:48 PM
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Quote:
Quote:
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#24
06-12-2001, 09:02 PM
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#25
06-12-2001, 09:10 PM
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Christianity is a symptom.
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#26
06-12-2001, 09:34 PM
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Hey, where has FriendofGod been lately?
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#28
06-12-2001, 10:36 PM
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Oooh. Simultanious FoG posts. Scary.
Quote:
But it doesn't sound like SPM was asking if he was alone in feeling persecuted, he was asking aren't I more persecuted than anyone else. He was the one trying to measure it. Oh, Freyr, very very funny .
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#29
06-12-2001, 11:11 PM
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If I may direct your attention to this thread, in which I (and many others) took FOG to task for his similar persecution complex and his inconceivable belief that Christians have more trouble openly expressing their beliefs in this country than Wiccans and atheists.
Dr. J
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#30
06-13-2001, 12:31 AM
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While we're all waiting for SPM to give some evidence of Christianity as a "most persecuted religion," how about we review this article, about the atheist college professor who's harassed by a town full of Christians...?
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#31
06-13-2001, 11:40 AM
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Quote:
And by the way, why the quotation marks in the phrases above? They strike me as odd, as though you wanted to make sure we knew that they were not your own words? Why would that be?
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#32
06-13-2001, 04:14 PM
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Non-religious people in the USA probably DO hate Christianity more than any other religion... but that's only logical, if you think about it.
Christianity, in its many forms, is the predominant religion of the United States. Sure, there are people of many religions here, but it's fairly easy to ignore or avoid them, if you're so inclined. For the sake of argument, imagine you're an atheist (or, if you ARE an atheist, pretend you're you). Now, you may find ALL religions ridiculous, or even offensive. But WHAT religion are you most likely to be confronted with? What religion makes its presence known most often? What religion has the most people trying to recruit you? I'd say it stands to reason that, in the United States at least, it would be Christianity! There aren't nearly so many Jews, Buddhists, Hindus or Moslems out there, after all; they don't do as much proselytizing; they aren't as omnipresent in the media (in December, the TV is CONSTANTLY reminding you of the birth of Jesus- on the other hand, Ramadan and Yom Kippur barely attract ANY media attention). So, while you, the atheist may dislike those religions in the abstract, you have has fewer direct, personal reasons to resent them. IF, on the other hand, our imaginary atheist moved to Israel, India, or Saudi Arabia, he might find there's a religion he hates even more than Christianity.
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#33
06-13-2001, 05:16 PM
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anecdote alert, anecdote alert
Quote:
). My most persistant problem is not witnessing/recruitment. It's these fine folk blocking my garage every sunday/wednesday.I will say though I've never had to get one towed. If it happens I mention it to the pastors of the various church and it gone in a few minutes.
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#34
06-13-2001, 05:25 PM
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Quote:
Tied into that, in response to #2, I don't think practicioners of other religions are mocked for their beliefs as often as Christians. Because Christianity is the dominant religion in the US, people have more opportunity to examine and find fault with it. For example, I've heard people complain about "the hypocrisy of Christians" but I've never heard anyone complain about Hindu or Buddhist hypocrisy on a large scale. It's much easier to mock ideas or beliefs with which one is familiar. For the majority of Americans, this would be Christianity. For example, as a stand-up comedy fan, I've seen dozens of routines poking fun at Catholics, Baptists and, to a much lesser extent, Judaism. I've yet to see a Muslim comic poking fun at an imam or a Wiccan comic telling a funny story about an athame mix-up. There is more support for people who mock Christianity than for those who mock other religions. If I overheard someone say,"Christians are all a bunch of lying cowards" I would assume he or she had bad experiences with Christians in the past, or were trying to look rebellious. If I heard someone say the same thing about Jews or Muslims I would think of them as bigots.
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#35
06-13-2001, 06:24 PM
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I think someone mentioned this above, but one thing that I would like to point out is that Christians as a rule are a missionary group. They actively pursue new recruits and attempt to get people to join their group.
Now, I know this is a small sample, but here in San Jose, I work with Hindus, Jews, Christians, and Buddhists. In the past it has come out that I am an Atheist. As you can guess the Hindu/Buddhist/Jewish people all shrugged it off and said that everyone has their own path to enlightenment. The Christians, however, still try to convince me that I am going to hell to this day. I think, as stated above, that the superior number of Christians in this country and the fact that they pursue new recruits (sometimes aggresively) makes the backlash against them even stonger. But no stronger than somebody trying to sell me an overpriced stereo. And certainly not any sort of hatred, I would consider it more of an annoyance. I would suggest to the PUSHY (not all) Christians out there, religion is a buyer's market. If your product can't sell itself, don't bother me with your bad sales pitch. Tony
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#36
06-13-2001, 06:49 PM
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Ballybay has a good point, and I think perhaps many Christians interpret the fun-poking as real persecution. Relatively few people alive in the US today have a good idea of what real religious persecution is like, native-born Christians least of all. Christians are very used to being the ones on top in this country, and anything that seems to threaten that is interpreted as persecution. And the fact is that Christians are not held as respectfully in high regard as they once were, and they miss that. In the first half of this century, you would not have heard the jokes and bitter opinions you hear now--at least not as publicly.
As a member of a Christian denomination that once suffered real persecution in this country, I can tell you that many of us have kind of a different attitude. "Hey, only half of the country dislikes us! We're doing great!" 
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#37
06-13-2001, 08:05 PM
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Christianity being hated? I'm going to assume that you are referring to Christians in America. I think you're a bit misinformed about the condition of Christians in the US relative to their condidion in other parts of the world. I'm sorry if sometimes it's *uncomfortable* to be a Christian here, or that you might decide to stand up for a particular belief that's not popular, but too bad. Now, Christians in Sudan; they are hated. As are many people of different religions who reside in countries where their religion is not the dominant one (which has been pointed out in other posts on this subject). Maybe you are talking about how many beliefs that are traditionally Christian, such as abortion and homosexuality being immoral, and were traditionally the beliefs of the majority of the US, are becoming less acceptable. However, I don't think you can claim those as being the result of Christianity being hated, because those are the traditional beliefs of other world religions as well.
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#38
06-13-2001, 11:09 PM
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A few more thoughts:
It depends on which part of the country you live in. When I lived in Berkeley (and for that matter, the rest of the Bay Area), I was unusual for being religious. There was a definite, open attitude from a real majority of people that Christian = crazy evil fundie bigot. People felt quite comfortable expressing their opinions of Christians in a way that they would never do about other groups. This, of course, is a manifestation of the majority-rule of Christians, but you see my point. So someone from an area like that may feel more disliked, esp. if they moved in from the Bible Belt or similar. Christians, esp. the evangelical Protestants that claim persecution, perceive some things to be persecution that most others would not perceive to be so. The escalation in divorce, changes in media entertainment depictions of Christians (contrast with those old Bing Crosby as priest movies), loosening of strict morals in TV shows, glamorization of crime, sex, and other behaviors, etc. are all perceived as overt anti-Christian persecution by some. I think this relates to my point above about Christians being used to being on top in this country.
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#39
06-14-2001, 12:07 AM
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Quote:
Along with the previously-cited idea that Christianity in America is more likely to be attacked because it is the dominant religion here, there's also the issue of confrontation. Unlike Judiasm, Hinduism, or Buddhism, Christians of all varieties often seem gung-ho about shoving their religion down other people's throats. At least that's how it seems to me -- I don't recall reading any news accounts of Jews or Buddhists pushing for "a moment of silence" at school football games, for instance. And the recent lawsuit (and Supreme Court decision) about allowing religious groups to gather at elementary schools and recruit impressional youngsters wasn't brought up by Islamic fundamentalists or Shinto priests, hmmm? (Or, as Monty Python's Flying Circus once put it, "Why should us atheists have to listen to that sectarian turmoil? ... The Mohmedans don't come 'round here wavin' bells at us! We don't get Buddhists playing bagpipes in our bathroom! Or Hindus harmonizing in the hall! The Shintus don't come here shattering sheet glass in the shithouse, shouting slogans--"
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#40
06-14-2001, 02:05 AM
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There was a tradition at the McGill Daily (student newspaper at McGill univeristy in Montreal [all volunteer]) of the outgoing editorial board being allowed to put out a comedy issue of the newspaper near the end of the spring semester. One year we did a tabloid mock-up with a screaming 72pt headline "Easter Cancelled: Body Found". The story beneath talking about the Pope consoling a weeping multitude in front of St. Peter's after an Israeli archeologist announces he has discovered the body.
The Catholic, United, Anglican and Presbyterian chaplains all told us at the paper that they had enjoyed the joke. The evangelicals said we were being anti-Christian. It's not so much that I hate certain Christian sects (I am, afterall, an equal opportunity atheist - I don't believe in Thor either) as that I lament their pitiful lack of perspective.
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#43
06-14-2001, 10:59 AM
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I have to agree with part this discussion. The amount of "persecution" really is reliant on where in the world the religion is being practiced. This is something that i noticed where i grew up; Christains were being actively pestered for thir beliefs. I found this to be more than other religions, really felt for them, and thus I wondered if this was a constant everywhere. As I do not live everywhere, it is impossible for me to gage this behavior in other areas of the world.
For those of you who posted in a civil manner, I thank you. I was not stating a fact when I began this post, but a question as to how people perceive religion. It was not a personal attack on anyone, nor ignorance. Isn't that why we ask questions? To battle ignorance? For those of you who did not post in a civil manner: Learn how to debate as would a mature adult. Don't make it personal if the question at hand is not a personal attack.
__________________
The man who first threw an insult instead of a stone, was the founder of civilization. - Sigmund Freud Nothing worse could happen to one than to be completely understood. -Carl Gustav Jung If you know me so well then tell me which hand I use. -Tori Amos
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#44
06-14-2001, 01:02 PM
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Quote:
You said: Quote:
I cannot discuss the issue until you support those assertions. Thanks.
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#45
06-14-2001, 01:15 PM
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yes. I made that statement in my initial posting, where I also said that it seemed to me that Christianity received alot of persecution (or whatever you want to call it. I know not all teasing and so forth is not persecution). Since then, I have agreed that religion acceptance varries every where. Then, my opinion having changed, the statement now applies to all religions: that we need wide spread acceptance if this is what the world preaches. ok?
__________________
The man who first threw an insult instead of a stone, was the founder of civilization. - Sigmund Freud Nothing worse could happen to one than to be completely understood. -Carl Gustav Jung If you know me so well then tell me which hand I use. -Tori Amos
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#46
06-14-2001, 01:28 PM
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Quote:
Other points: 1. Much of what is called "persecution" in America of any religious belief is actually "you can't do everything you want to do". We have had long debates on this board where it has been posited, for example, that barring a local town's long-standing tradition of crosses, etc., at Christmas time is "persecution". It is not. Persecution would be when a private citizen is not allowed to display that cross. 2. Overt displays of religion in this country have become frowned upon. To a large extent this is overreaction to the often agressive prostelyzation practiced by many religious groups. However, disagreement, even if (verbally) violent isn't persecution. The person overtly displaying their religion is making a statement. The person may think that that statement cannot be rationally disagreed with, because it is self-evidently right. Not true. I find it self-evident that abortion rights shouldn't be infringed, but I'm not shocked or surprised when someone violently disagrees with me. Sua
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#47
06-14-2001, 01:48 PM
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Quote:
Therefore, the fundamentalists have no interest in tolerance of other religions. Quite the contrary- if they want people to go to heaven (which they do), it behooves them to ensure that other people do not follow other religions. Therefore, those other religions must be shut down, removed from society, and any who does not follow fundamentalist Christianity must be pestered and petitioned and even persecuted until they finally see the light and convert. So the problem with "live and let live" is that while many other religions are willing to do so, fundamentalist Christianity is not. Therefore, the hostility one encounters when speaking of Christianity tends to be that of a pre-emptive strike: if you proclaim yourself a strong Christian, and I admit my atheism, you will attempt to convert me by any means necessary, based upon the fact that 4 out of every five "strong Christians" try to do such. This is not persecution, not in any way, shape, or form. This is annoyance, and perhaps a bit of lashing out by a minority which has no recognizable power (name a *single* avowed athiest Congressman. Or Governor. Or Senator). Were the Muslims as intent and ever present in attempting to convert us, we'd probably lash out at them as well. However, generally the only people to take issue with people being atheist (or etc.) are fundamentalist Christians.
__________________
Fighting ignorance since 1999. Unfortunately, ignorance fights back.
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#48
06-14-2001, 05:32 PM
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SPM wrote:
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#49
06-15-2001, 09:16 PM
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Freyr wrote:
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#50
06-15-2001, 10:51 PM
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SuaSponte wrote:
Even if you do not belong to a religious that preaches prostelyzation and/or that other religions are evil, one belongs to a religion because one thinks that religion is the correct one. At the very least, that implies that adherents of other religions (or of none) are in error. Not necessarily. I practice Wicca because I believe it's right for me, not because it's right, period. Some religions do imply that other faiths are wrong or that their's is superior, but not all. Christianity isn't right for me, but it's well suited for others. Buddhism works well for another set of people. YMMV To betenoir & tracer... thanks! I got that off the 'Net, from one of the Pagan mailing list. Author unknown, but it is damn funny!
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