I started this thread to address some comments made by FriendofGod in the now-hopelessly-hijacked “A Movie That Might Change Your Life” thread. I’d like to continue that part of the discussion here.
FoG had been going on about how much persecution Christians face in our society. I presented a hypothetical, which I will sum up rather than repeat: a Christian, an atheist, and a Wiccan all work in identical offices, are very open and expressive about their particular faiths, have all sorts of statements of their faith posted around their cubicle, etc. Which of these people is going to face more “persecution”?
FoG answered:
Uh, yes. So did a lot of other people. Since the rest of that page was rendered unviewable by FoG’s SmutCatcher ISP, here are some of the responses.
ITR Champion said:
Ben said:
None other than Satan said:
I had yet to personally respond, partially because Neurology is killing me and partially because these guys made my point well. Suffice it to say that I, too, was floored by FoG’s bizarre perception of reality.
That’s why I started this thread–I would like to give FoG (and others who agree with him) the chance to respond. What, exactly, makes you think that Christians face such persecution in our society? Since 80% of the people in the country claim to be Christians, who is doing the persecuting?
I hope this can turn into a pretty good debate, and that we can leave the other thread for discussion of Battlefield Earth 2001.
Just to let you know that you exactly copied the typo in ITR Champion’s post that got the page blacked out by FoG’s ISP in the first place, so he’s not going to be able to see this page, either.
Truly it all depends on your work eviroment. In “america” is too big an area. Also it depends on the job. I doubt a scientist would comment on atheism but he would probably comment on a fundy christan or a wiccan. So you made too general a statement.
On the one side, we have the atheists, Wiccans, Muslims, Jews, Agnostics et al, going through their day to day tasks. They (often) hide or at least fail to broadcast their beliefs because of news stories like the one referenced, statements like the ones quoted from our Presidents etc. They see statues, banners, store fronts etc. proclaiming in loud letters, the wonders of Christianity, they live in a country where major Christian holidays are also governmental holidays. If they wish a day off for pursuit of their religious celebration, it would rarely be understood by the supervisor without an explanation (Day of Atonement? whats’ that?). At work, and in casual conversations with acquaintences, they will often either not make any reference to their religion or are beset by questions that may or may not be entirely polite (“why d’yall wear your head covered up like that?”) And when they fail to broadcast their beliefs, the nearby Christian will be unaware of the offensive nature of the remark “so, where are you spending Christmas?”
Clearly (at least to me) this qualfies for the term ‘persecuted’ or at the very least “not generally accepted”.
On the other hand, we have the Christians, whose major religious holidays are also governmental ones, and most people at least know of the holidays. Their places of worship are highly visible and there are many of them. There are bookstores devoted to their religion, there are other businesses that proudly proclaim to be “Christian”. The Christian is also accustomed to talking about not only their personal life, but their religious life as well, in that conversations at work, and around the neighborhood will often make references to their church and activities.
however, and this is where I can see people like FoG’s point, while they are clearly in the majority by numbers and in positions of power, they are more likely to have their faith personally challenged by virtue of the probability they’re more likely to be open about it
Hence, the feeling of being persecuted. Doesn’t make it empirically true, of course. So, the Christian in that they proclaim their faith loudly and expect it to be accepted reacts strongly when challenged about it, feeling persecuted, since they don’t experience day to day examples of true religious persecution, feel as if they are.
There are some other Bible verses which also touch on this theme in one manner or another (Matthew 5:9-13, Matthew 24:8-10, Luke 21:11-13, John 15:19-21, 1 Corinthians 4:11-13, 2 Corinthians 4:8-10 and 1 Thessalonians 3:3-5, amongst others) as well.
Is it very surprising that Christians who opt to believe in the inerrency of the Bible to go so far as to believe in things such as Creationism wouldn’t follow 2 Timothy 3:12 to the letter as well?
And if you are enevitably going to be persecuted just for believing, even if the persecution is not really there, you get to scream about how the ACLU is actually the Anti-Christ Lawyer Union, or about how the media is controlled by evil secular humanists who want nothing more to do that the biding of Satan (the real one), or how the everything was delivered to Satan’s quivering hands the moment the “atheists” outlawed prayer in schools?
In a nutshell: The Bible says it, they believe it. It says they’re gonna be persecuted, so persecuted they’ll be. And no amount of reason will get them to see it any other way, for the same reason that no amount of reason will get the likes of Phelps or Hovind to open their eyes either.
(Oh wait… Does that mean I just persecuted Phelps and Hovind? :shrugs:)
Persecuting Phelps is a humanitarian act on the level of the Berlin Airlift and Schindler’s List. There ought to be charities whose sole purpose is to file nuisance lawsuits claiming that the Westboro Baptist Church has 2" less clearance between building and property line than zoning laws allow. There ought to be a division within that charity whose sole purpose is to walk around the property with signs on two-by-fours that say “this is the same kind of board that was used by Rev. Phelps to beat his children and wife”. There ought to be city officials in Topeka whose sole authority is to check the man’s grandchildren for signs of child abuse. :mad:
I think that the problem is that many Christians have a double standard about what it means to be “expressive” of Christianity versus other religions. For many Christians, if you say that a Wiccan is being “expressive” of their religion, they’ll imagine a pentagram in their office. If you say that a Christian is being “expressive”, they’ll imagine that the Christian is constantly talking about their religion, celebrating Christian holidays publicly, and regularly proselytizing. Thus, by their definitions, Christians that are “expressive” are persecuted more than Wiccans that are “expressive”. The reason these people see more persecution of Christians than persecution of non-Christians is because they have a much higher threshold of what Christians should be able to do without persecution. To these people, Christians should have full access to whatever school resources they want, and denying this is persecution. But the same people see nothing wrong with suspending students for wearing pentagrams.
Nah, NPO network of qualified, skilled, people who will go apply for jobs at places to confirm certain ethnic and or religious backgrounds are discriminated against.
I think christianity is the leading cause of stupidity in the world… or at least in America (islam is the leading cause of stupidity in the middle east, etc). How can any christian in america can honestly say, without their tongue poking a bloody hole in their cheek, that christians are more persecuted than atheists?
I’ve noticed christians using this “we’re being persecuted” bullshit a lot lately - especially in the midst of the John “Let’s Make Contraception Illegal” Ashcroft confirmation hearings. Basically, it revolves around the fact that a "good "christian’s #1 duty (especially those evangelical creeps) in life is to “spread the word” (otherwise known as forcing their beliefs upon others). When they are told that they can’t use government funds (such as public schools, taxpayer money, etc.) to do so, they feel that their “freedom of religion” is being violated.
It would be funny if it weren’t so disturbing. They whine, “Not being allowed to force ‘the Truth’ on everyone is a violation of our freedom of religion.” Umm no. That’s like Ted Bundy saying that legally not being allowed to murder you, chop you up into a billion pieces, and masturbate on the flesh-chunks is a violation of his “right to the pursuit of happiness.”
Satan pretty much summed of everything else I would say in reply to this, so I won’t repeat his eloquent words. I am of the humble opinion that “Friend of god” is an idiot. Also, since FoG does not worship my printer (the one True Center of the Universe, Creator of all Things) he will burn in hell for eternity.
Thanks for starting this thread, although I think it’s too late for the other one to be restored … but it doesn’t matter too much since the movie is gone from theatres now.
Let me say this at the outset: American Christians as a whole cannot truly say they are being “persecuted” in the most literal sense of the word. True persecution is getting thrown in jail, being martyred, having your right removed, etc.
Those who live in oppressed countries know what real persecution is all about. As one example that comes to mind, a Malaysian girl I knew in college in the mid-80s gave her life to Christ and her family rejected her. I’ve read a story about a Muslim who became a Christian who was disowned by his family. And the underground church in China continues to flourish despite literal 1st century style persecution.
So having said that, I have to use the word “persecution” as it applies to me and other American Christians with a grain of salt. But Christians are routinely harassed for their beliefs, and sometimes more than just harassed.
Now that I think about it, it happened to me from 1993 - 94. In the job I worked in at that time (in downtown Atlanta) I worked with about 9 other people, and all but two of them were downright hateful of my beliefs, including my boss. My boss blatantly attacked me for my beliefs even though I was one of the hardest workers in the office.
As one example, I told my boss on the day I was hired that I was willing to work overtime at any time except for Wednesday nights or Sunday mornings, at which time I would be attending a Bible study at my church, or Sun AM church. Well, she acted fine with it on that day, and that’s about as long as it lasted. I routinely worked harder than anyone in the office and she gave me good reviews on my performance, but she relentlessly harassed me about working a little later on Wednesday nights.
I gave her no excuse. I would come in 1 1/2 hours early on Thursday morning and finish anything that was not done by the time I left Wednesday. This didn’t satisfy her one bit. She didn’t care. I remember one time she outright gave me an ultimatum: work Wednesday night or suffer the consequences. There was no reason I had to work that night, she just wanted me to (this wasn’t a hospital or anything by the way). Needless to say I chose to leave anyway, and thankfully she backed down. Again, I left her no excuse because I always got my work done.
This last incident I mentioned caused me to come very close to filing religious harassment charges, but thanfully as I was thinking along those lines I got a new boss who kind of straightened the situation out. The whole ordeal lasted about a year. I’ll be honest, I truly believe the Lord had me go through it on purpose. I learned a lot about dealing with harsh and difficult people, and I can now tell friends who have a bad boss that I can relate to them.
Didn’t mean for that to go so long, but I thought you’d like to see just one real life example. Now truthfully, that’s one year out of 35 I’ve had on this earth. I’m not saying it happens all the time, but it does happen.
In fact, ah, this message board is a prime example. The hatred and scorn shown toward Christianity here is rather brazen. I’m not saying everyone is that way. There are people here who know how to have an adult conversation and disagree agreeably. But there are many who are just cruel.
I mentioned on the other thread a guy who was told he could not read his own Bible during lunch hour. There are countless other such cases I’ve read about over the years, and no, unfortunately I don’t have anything in front of me to pass on. There is an organization called the ACLJ that hears and documents cases about these things all year. I will try to find their website and post a link.
As for 80% of our country claiming to be Christian: that’s what people claim. You can claim to be anything. There are many people who believe they are saved and are not. The Bible makes that perfectly plain. In fact, some of the people who dish out the most scorn on true Christianity are those who think they are Christians but are not!
How do you know the difference? One of the indications that someone is in this tragic category is the “Christian” who says, “Well I can sin as much as I want and God will just forgive me”. This person is just looking for an excuse to sin. Can you see how someone in this category wouldn’t appreciate someone messing up his comfy doctrine?
wring said:
Interesting point. I guess we set ourselves up for target practice huh? I guess it just goes with the territory. In fact …
Satan said:
Okay, Satan and others, let me give you an insight into how Christians think. We are human beings just like you. We wish people would listen to what we have to say and just accept us and love us as we are, just like you. So when we get “saved”, we start sharing it with people and start living for Christ. As time goes on, we begin to encounter the Americanized watered-down version of persecution. We begin to take it personally.
Then, lo and behold, we are having our daily devotionals one day, and stumble across the verse you mentioned, and it’s an incredible comfort to us. Here is an even more tender passage from Jesus, in John 15:18-25 …
I know that was long but the point is this … if it didnt really happen, Christians would read these passages and go, ‘huh? That’s never happened to me’, and we’d have to figure out what Jesus really meant. But at it is, we can all relate to these passages and know exactly what he meant.
Can I have a cite that shows, for example, that Wiccan’s get to have a group-led prayer at public school school when they are “expressive” and the Christians do not?
If you are claiming that Christians claim persecution when it isn’t there and in fact it does happen to all religions in certain forms (thanks to SOCAS in many instances) but that the Christians simply CALL it persecution when it is NOT, then I agree.
If you are saying that Christians are treated worse in general society (or by the regulations proscribed by the SOCAS) than other religions, I would like some kind of cite, thanks.
Ah, I should have gone to the ACLJ web site a long time ago. Here are links to just a handful of articles about cases they’ve taken in the past year or so. If you browse their website you’ll find many many more (the first link is simply a list of Christian rights in the workplace).
I still remember when the ACLJ was first formed, about 10+ years ago. These types of things were happening with alarming frequency and there was no Christian legal arm to stand up to it. The ACLJ is one of the organizations that sprang up out of a need to tackle this problem. Check out the whole website, you guys might find it interesting.
I’m new here, and I’m a Christian. However (with apologies to fellow-believers), I fail to see how any person in their right mind can conclude that Christians are persecuted in this country.
Persecution of Christians occurs in Islamic countries (e.g., Indonesia). It used to occur in the USSR, and may (probably does) still happen in China and North Korea. Persecution is when you aren’t allowed to have a place of worship; when you aren’t allowed to own a copy of the holy writings of your religion; when you lose your job and are sent to prison, while your kids are kicked out of public school because of your religious beliefs (not for “witnessing”; just for being suspected or accused); when you are beaten or tortured for your faith; or even crucified for your faith, as several Anglicans were in the Sudan a few years ago.
When I see evidence that any of the above is happening in the U.S., then I’ll believe there’s persecution here. Until then, don’t give me that nonsense, please.
If you want someone else’s opinion (other than mine) of what constitutes persecution, try Foxe’s Book of Martyrs. For something more recent, try to get hold of a copy of Rosalind Goforth’s How I Know God Answers Prayer (out of print for many years), which includes a description of being caught in China during the Boxer Rebellion. Or how about Through Gates of Splendor (can’t remember the author; try http://www.abe.com ), which describes the missionaries killed by Amazonian tribes c.1950. When you can give me the name of someone in the U.S. who has died for their faith (and not a la the Davidians or Jim Jones’s hapless followers), then you can tell me there’s persecution here. IF you’re still able, and not too afraid to speak out, that is. Of course, I don’t expect to still be around . . .
IMHO, this is the Laodicean Age of Christianity.
What frightens me, as a Christian, is the fact that Christians STILL have it (nearly) all our way in this country. How are we supposed to be good Christians without persecution? (cf. text cited by Satan)
Murkin Xians are so far from persecuted, in their nice homes with the Lexus or BMW in the garage, that they confuse losing the traditional right to impose their beliefs on others with persecution. God, please help them to wake up!
I don’t consider this “percecution,” and I wouldn’t say it begins to answer toe call of institutionalized persecution which is the main issue here.
Many families kick children who turn out to be gay or lesbian to the curb. Many families kick kids to the curb when they start taking drugs. Some families kick their kids to the curb if they do a lot of things which might displease them.
I call that (usually) lousy parenting. Whether my son Johnny turns to Christ or to Esprix, I will love my child all the same.
But if I didn’t, it wouldn’t be persecution.
**
Well, at a recent job interview in the retail sector, I told them I couldn’t work Sundays. (Don’t get excited… It ws because of FOOTBALL, though I do plan on going back to church now that the NFL is done.) I didn’t get the job.
I didn’t care much - I’m making more on unemployment and retail blows. And they never asked me about why I needed Sundays off. It could have been church…
So I was not persecuted. I was just unable to perform the job at the hours/days they needed the help.
If you could only work from midnight to sunrise because you were a full-time student or something, are you being persecuted because a store might not be open 24 hours a day and cannot use you?
**
In the real world, this is not called “persecution.” This is called an asshole boss. Please put in “asshole boss” in a search engine here in The Pit and see how many people have had them.
**
Yeah, it’s called “not having an asshole boss.”
If Christians were really persecuted, every boss would be like that. That’s what makes persecution, not a few assholes.
Case in point, FoG: You know that many people have done assholish things in the name of Jesus. People have killed in His name, you know, and I’ve seen you come out and decry them as wrong on these pages.
Yet, even they did not “persecute” anyone, per se. Sure, I would say that they are assholes. I mean, stalking and killing abortion doctors sucks! But I wouldn’t say abortionists are “persectued.” I would say that one asshole did an unfortunate thing.
Would you say that ALL Christians are going to slay abortionists? If not, where is the persecution?
**
I would like a citation of someone here telling either Polycarp or RTFirefly, two Christians here of long standing, that they were hated becausxe they were Christian.
Hell, if you take out the occassional idiotic generalization towards all Christians which some people on the other side do, nobody has shown scorn to YOU because you;re a Christian. That would be an ad hominem attack, after all.
They show you scorn because you rarely can back up a point, you are guilty of circular reason, and if I had a dollar for every time you said something which was flat-out WRONG and proven as such (and you very rarely, if ever, admit to being wrong), I’d be wealthy.
The people here attacked some idiot Islamic poster six months ago or so when they started screaming abot how the Koran showed that evolution was false. Look it up in the searchj engine if you doubt me.
And how many threads are there where practitioners of New Age mumbo-jumbo get tons of derision?
Once again, you are wrong. How ironic that you would use this forum as a way to make a point about how maligned Christians are when, in fact, it couldn’t be farther from the truth.
This board does not like idiots.
Some idiots happen to be Christian.
**
If Christians were persecuted, Bibles would be outlawed.
If you don’t see the difference, once again, between “asshole boss” and “persecution,” you really haven’t been paying attention.
**
So what is your definition of a Christian? Someone who lives up to YOUR standards or Gods?
You are in no place to question the salvation of any man, and I believe attempting to do so is a sin.
You can’t even prove that only Christians are saved, let alone out stipulations on it.
**
Funny, but I never met anyone who said that. Sounds like some anti-Catholic BS from a Chick tract more than real life.
Besides, even if we were to assume that you were right, that so many people who call themselves Christians are really not, PLEASE SHOW ME SPECIFIC CASES OF PEOPLE WHO CALL THEMSELVES CHRISTIANS PERSECUTING OTHER PEOPLE WHO CALL THEMSELVES CHRISTIANS?
I anxiously await this one…
**
There is nothing to take personally.
Your boldest claim on the other thread wwas that sex on TV is a form of persecution. And in spite of the fact that everyone showed you that this was not the case at all, you still refuse to believe the evidence right in front of your face.
Why?
Because you HAVE to believe in some kind of persecution! The Bible says so, so it must be true!
Come on, I don’t need you to show me how Christians feel My brother is a youth minister. My sister married a minister. I know moire about comparative religions that you will ever forget (namely because I actually see other religions as valid ways to learn about other people, and you see them as roads to hell and temptations from Satan), and I absolutely REFUSE to have someone tell me about a religion when they have shown to be ignorant of it.
Happened. There is no denying that Christians were persecuted.
If we’re talking history, there is also no denying that Christians have done there share of persecuting. You might wanna look up about the Crusades and the Salem Witch Trials some time. Here’s a hint: Wiccans didn’t burn Protestants at the stakes.
And let’s not even speak of what you did to God’s Chosen People throughout history…
I would even give you persecution in other countries today, as long as you give me that this same persecution happens to people of all faiths in many of those countries as well, making it RELIGIOUS persecution, not specifically Christian.
But if the best you can do is point out asshole bosses and this board, you’ve got it pretty damn good.
Quit cheapening God by being so willfully ignorant in His name.
When Orrin Hatch was running for president, MSNBC, I believe, published a poll that said that 3% would not vote for a Jew, 17% would not vote for a Mormon, and 41% percent would not vote for an atheist. (I’m sorry I don’t have the link). I recall that Orrin Hatch, in my very own neighborhood park stumping for president, cited this poll to invoke persecution feelings among the sympathetic Mormon audience. Of course, he and they were overwhelmingly among those who would not vote for an atheist, yet they wallowed in the self-pity just the same.
By the way, in arguing with Christians on an exmormon board, I saw a thread on the idea of Christian persecution one day by several who proclaimed as proof that Christians were severely persecuted in Sudan. I think the Pat and Jerry shows are fanning the flames of this victimology.
A list of “rights,” which doesn’t show me about persecution. I do wonder what the ACLU would think of it, because if they did agree that these were “rights in the workplace,” they would fight for them if infringed upon.
A couple of gays - one dying of AIDS, is told that they cannot sue the Christian nurse who told them (in some way) that their homosexuality was a sin. It’s a good thing I wasn’t one of the gays. I would have probably wanted to kill her rather than sue her. Typical Christian “compassion.”
I also like in this reprint of the original AP Story, which has her suing the state (her employers) for $100,000 to make up for two weeks of pay. Man, they sure are paying nurses well these days… Or do you think she was trying to get a little more? That’s not very Christian of her…
And no, I don’t think a couple of gays being told they can’t sue an idiot is an example of “persecution.” If anything, the court is showing the exact opposite by saying the suit had no merit.
But if you want to think that a victory by a money-grubber Christian in court shoes that Christians are persecuted, so be it.
Well, I wouldn’t want a state worker giving out religious tracts on the job, personally. For some reason, the court said that she could. Maybe she’s not a state worker, I can;t tell from the article. Even if it’s a private business, I don’t like it and think that a company can tell employees what is appropriate and what is not.
So if the court said that the Christian was okay (even though I have my own personal issues with this), where is the persecution? Are court victories persecution in your world?
Either way, I would like to see the outcome of this case. A pending case doesn’t much show anything, let alone persecution…
Funny… The story you posted says that the good doctor has no problem teaching evolution in spite of his religious beliefs. I find that very true, as most Christians have no problem reconciling religion and evolution, but it wouldn’t make sense for a school board to relieve him of this if he wasn’t letting the religion get in the way of the science!
I found Time Magazine had a view somewhat less charitable than your website:
He was fired for not doing his job and trying to replace religious dogma with scientific fact. Buh bye, prof. So long, cite’s credibility.
Of course, Time Magazine is no doubt biased…
Why yes. A judge telling a New York school district that SOCAS does not cover something that they did not allow is CARTAINLY en example of persecution against Christianity.
So how is it that a judge telling a Christian organization that they can have their concert at a school facility persecution? You won, and the dreaded “separation of Church and State” was powerless to stop the victory.
This evidence of persecution is amusing…
Gee, a case about student prayer. I won’t even look any farther atthis one… Either the school is being too stringent about something that is titally within the rights of a Christian student, and the board will win the case, or the school is doing something which infringes on the rights of the non-Christian (or non-religious) students, in which case they will be told to stop.
This is not persecution. This is a government institution (public school) which is not in a theocracy which has rules to abide by, rules that apply to every faith, not just Christianity.
Another court victory over a state agency probably scared to death that displaying a Bible would be a SOCAS issue even though it’s not, all because of Christians constantly challenging that authority to begin with (prayer in schools, for example).
In summary: If the courts of this great nation upholding certain religious freedoms, while at the same time stomping down some thing which apply to all faiths, not just Christianity, once again I;d have to say you don’t know what persecution is.
May the Giant Wombat in the Sky forgive me, but I’m actually going to get involved in this thread…
First off, and I say this as a highly skeptical agnostic lawyer, I would have loved to see FriendofGod walk through my hypothetical door when your former employer treated you in such a manner. Laws against religious discrimination are in place to prevent and/or punish such problems because they should not happen regardless of the employee’s belief system. Shoot, I bet even the ACLU would have loved to have such a case. (Well, it’s kind of a small employer for devoting major resources, but you get my drift.)
Please do not dismiss knee-jerk reactions as cruelty. There is a big difference between a person who posts a dismissive comment and a person who posts an insulting or cruel comment. I have seen quite a lot of the former, and darned few of the latter. I think the mere fact that so many posters, Christian and atheist alike, are interested in what you have to say says a whole lot about the open-mindedness and tolerance of this board.
As for your cites, I greatly appreciate the fact that you provided them. However, I am less than convinced that they demonstrate persecution of Christians. Link #1 provides no evidence of persecution. Links #2-4 describe cases of government employees proselytizing to their clients/students. Surely, you would not argue that Beelzebub should be able to use a position of government authority to browbeat a captive audience into carving swatikas on their foreheads? Fine, then Jesus ought not to either.
Link #5 (and lest anyone be confused, a “Supreme Court” in NY is merely a trial court) describes an equal-access violation that I again suspect nearly everyone here would disagree with. Sadly, the link provides no facts whatsoever to describe the case, but I’ll be generous and take the ACLJ’s word for it.
Link #6 is a bloody joke. Although it alleges that this is merely an affirmance of a student’s right to “voluntary prayer,” it gives no details whatsoever to back up that assertion. Santa Fe School District was argued as a “voluntary, student-led prayer” case, which was utter nonsense. (Source: Cover story of the November 2000 issue of Texas Monthly, which describes in excruciating detail the harassment suffered by Catholic, Mormon, non-fundamentalist Christian, and atheist students at Santa Fe High.) But if you look at the actual case, you will see that even the school district conceded that “under Supreme Court precedent, it may not prescribe prayer or allow state employees to lead, participate in or otherwise endorse prayer of any type during curricular or extracurricular events.” (Citing a case from where I went to high school! Even as a 15-year-old breath mint, I knew those f***ers were breaking the law by leading blatantly Christian prayers at pep rallies!) The court had no problem with the part of the district court’s injunction that prohibited the district itself (through its employees) from leading or encouraging prayer. So much for DeKalb’s attempt to establish religion in its schools.
Link #7 involves an idiotic closure of a public forum that prevented a private citizen’s display of the Bible. Again, I bet nobody here would dispute the right of that citizen to do so. This is, after all, a public forum, and we’re actively asking you to post.
Nevertheless, I do find it passing strange that I’m condemning a couple of your examples of persecution of Christians, while you haven’t condemned any examples of persecution of non-Christians. So much for true tolerance, eh?
http://www.aclj.org/news/NR_990813.asp
Public worker witnesses to gay couple for whom she is supposed to be providing state services. Couple sues. Case is dismissed. Worker’s lawyer claims she was harrassed for her beliefs.
Looks to me as though the gay couple might have been on the prod, or, there was simply not enough evidence in a he-said-she-said trial to prove that she really did get in their faces.
http://www.aclj.org/news/NR_990113.asp
Employee moonlights by proselytizing on state time, then whines and sues when she is legitimately disciplined. (If she really thought she needed to witness to the victim, she should have arranged to come back after hours.)
http://www.aclj.org/news/NR_990601.asp
Teacher takes pay from state to teach science, then tries to insert religion into the course. Complains of mistreatment when he is justifiably barred from that practice. (Despite his claims that he would not teach Creationism, all of the alleged “disagreements” regarding evolution are taken from anti-scientific Creationist sources and include no scientific material.)
http://www.aclj.org/news/nr_010119.asp
Christian organization legitimately gets a bad policy about the use of public property by private groups overturned.
(Of course, the bad policy probably had a lot more to do with frightened bureaucrats not understanding how to allow public use of facilities rather than an actual anti-Christian bias–which was not anti-Christian since it would have barred any similar use by Jewish, Islamic, Wiccan, or other groups.)
http://www.aclj.org/news/nr_001020.asp
Court strikes down a permanent injunction that too broadly prohibited strictly voluntary prayer at non-academic school-related functions, although it is noted that when the plea for relief from the injunction was filed, the school district and its defenders did not deny that the events leading up to the injunction had included illegal imposition of school-authority imposed public prayers.
In other words, in an attempt to correct an abuse by Christians of the separation of church and state, one lower court overstepped its bounds and was corrected by the Supreme Court.
Hardly persecution of Christians.
http://www.aclj.org/news/NR_001010b.asp
Georgia library system is found to have illegally discriminated against a man who wished to provide free New Testaments in a display for community news distribution, even though other religious-oriented material had been accepted.
Seems fairly clear that the library system was following an illegal practice. Of course, no indication is given as to why the NT was rejected. It could as easily have been the standard bureaucratic overreaction to seeing a bible in a public place as actual attempts to suppress Christian thought–particularly unlikely in rural Georgia.
So out of six cases, we find one bureacratic overreaction, one probable bureaucratic overreaction, one judicial overreaction to an actual Christian-led crime, one teacher deliberately refusing to perform the job for which he was hired, and two cases where a zealous Christian social worker tried mixing religion and work, in one of which her victims may have overreacted (although we did not get to hear their side of the story).
I have no time to give your two rather detailed responses justice tonight, but I would like to point one thing out. Did you miss this at the very beginning of my post? (Emphasis added)
And then this …
In other words … I am not calling it “persecution”, but your whole case it seems is to prove that what happens to Christians in the US is not “persecution”. I agreed with you, right at the beginning of my post.
Oh, and regarding my comments on this board: take a look at “A Movie That Will Change Your Life” page 5 in which I’m blatantly accused of a string of intentional lies, among other things. That wasn’t by far the worst I’ve seen. But having said that, MOST of the people here are at least reasonably polite.
I guess it just goes with the territory. In fact …