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Old 02-01-2016, 08:28 PM
River Hippie River Hippie is offline
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Republicans itching to use Hammer & Sickle logo against Sanders. Best response?

Let's say Sanders wins the nomination. I have heard that Republican groups have ads ready to go branding Sanders with the hammer and sickle logo. What would be his best response? My first inclination is for Bernie to give a detailed analysis of his interpretation of "Democratic Socialist" and why the American public should not be alarmed. Then I think, no way. The American public won't listen to a "detailed analysis", they want a sound bite.
How would he best answer?
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Old 02-01-2016, 08:29 PM
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Only one answer, only one thing trumps hammer and sickle: he has to go swastika.

Last edited by CarnalK; 02-01-2016 at 08:30 PM.
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Old 02-01-2016, 08:36 PM
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Only one answer, only one thing trumps hammer and sickle: he has to go swastika.
There's got to be some way to get the h&s and swastika respectively printed next to Bernie's and Donald's names on the ballot! Even if it takes an emergency session of Congress!
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Old 02-01-2016, 08:38 PM
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Embrace it.
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Old 02-01-2016, 08:47 PM
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Don't reject it; embrace it. Make an ad showing Sanders clobbering an effigy of Trump using agricultural tools.
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Old 02-01-2016, 08:58 PM
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Only one answer, only one thing trumps hammer and sickle: he has to go swastika.
It would go great with his rhetoric. Not too far off the mark...

"Let us wage a moral and political war against the Jews, on Wall Street and elsewhere, whose policies and greed are destroying the middle class of America."

"What kind of nation are we when we give tax breaks to Jews, but we can't take care of the elderly and the children."

"How do we say, why do you keep voting for people who are giving more tax breaks to Jews, who are going to send your jobs abroad, not going to let you form a union, not going to allow your kids to go to college? Why do you keep voting for these guys?"

"The votes elected officials make should be based on the best interests of the American people, not the fear of retribution when shadowy groups spend millions of dollars on negative advertisements."

"The Jews are apparently leaving America. They're giving up their citizenship. These great lovers of America who made their money in this country-when you ask them to pay their fair share of taxes they run abroad."

"The Jews pay an effective tax rate lower than nurses or truck drivers. That makes no sense at all. There has to be real tax reform, and the Jews will pay."

"The point is change can come about, but it only comes about when millions of people are actively involved in political struggle, the Jews may have the money, but we have the people."

"To be honest with you, I worry about Jewish ownership in media, where you have a handful of Jews largely controlling what we see, hear and read."

"Jews have enormous power over the Republican Party, enormous power over the Democratic Party."

"What Jews are doing is really not much different from what gangsters and loan sharks do who make predatory loans. While the Jews wear three-piece suits and don't break the knee caps of those who can't pay back, they still are destroying people's lives."
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Old 02-01-2016, 09:06 PM
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I haven't noticed his racist rhetoric. A self hating Jew, you say?
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Old 02-01-2016, 09:14 PM
Hank Beecher Hank Beecher is offline
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He may have dressed the arguments up a bit to keep scapegoat fresh and fashionable.
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Old 02-01-2016, 09:36 PM
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He may have dressed the arguments up a bit to keep scapegoat fresh and fashionable.
Or maybe you just so easily substituted "jews" for "money & banks" for a more obvious reason.
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Old 02-01-2016, 10:04 PM
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Or maybe you just so easily substituted "jews" for "money & banks" for a more obvious reason.
So those statements are acceptable when directed against the wealthy, but not against Jews?
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Old 02-01-2016, 10:45 PM
Qin Shi Huangdi Qin Shi Huangdi is offline
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So those statements are acceptable when directed against the wealthy, but not against Jews?
Yes.
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Old 02-01-2016, 10:51 PM
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Talk about all the popular programs that were deemed communist when they first came out and talk about how conservatives were wrong to oppose those programs then and are wrong to oppose programs now.

Medicare, medicaid, minimum wage, social security, child labor laws, etc.

Progressives have no view of history.

Last edited by Wesley Clark; 02-01-2016 at 10:52 PM.
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Old 02-02-2016, 03:19 AM
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He honeymooned in the Soviet Union. He's not "Democratic socialist" except to the extent that he needs to be to get elected. He also seemed to be a fan of Castro and the Sandinistas in the 80s.

Now I don't believe he's a communist, but his rather typical leftist cluelessness about horrible dictatorships when he was relatively younger is always useful fodder if you can get it.

Last edited by adaher; 02-02-2016 at 03:20 AM.
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Old 02-02-2016, 04:33 AM
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He's not "Democratic socialist" except to the extent that he needs to be to get elected.
Now I don't believe he's a communist
You seem confused, so he's not a democratic socialist and he's not a communist, then what is he? And Reagan's support for horrible right wing anti-communist dictatorships didn't seem to hurt his popularity much, oops, sorry that was when he was in office, not when he was young and foolish.
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Old 02-02-2016, 04:59 AM
FightMyIgnorance FightMyIgnorance is offline
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It would go great with his rhetoric. Not too far off the mark...

"Let us wage a moral and political war against the Jews, on Wall Street and elsewhere, whose policies and greed are destroying the middle class of America."

"What kind of nation are we when we give tax breaks to Jews, but we can't take care of the elderly and the children."

"How do we say, why do you keep voting for people who are giving more tax breaks to Jews, who are going to send your jobs abroad, not going to let you form a union, not going to allow your kids to go to college? Why do you keep voting for these guys?"

"The votes elected officials make should be based on the best interests of the American people, not the fear of retribution when shadowy groups spend millions of dollars on negative advertisements."

"The Jews are apparently leaving America. They're giving up their citizenship. These great lovers of America who made their money in this country-when you ask them to pay their fair share of taxes they run abroad."

"The Jews pay an effective tax rate lower than nurses or truck drivers. That makes no sense at all. There has to be real tax reform, and the Jews will pay."

"The point is change can come about, but it only comes about when millions of people are actively involved in political struggle, the Jews may have the money, but we have the people."

"To be honest with you, I worry about Jewish ownership in media, where you have a handful of Jews largely controlling what we see, hear and read."

"Jews have enormous power over the Republican Party, enormous power over the Democratic Party."

"What Jews are doing is really not much different from what gangsters and loan sharks do who make predatory loans. While the Jews wear three-piece suits and don't break the knee caps of those who can't pay back, they still are destroying people's lives."
It is my great displeasure to inform you that you haven't the slightest clue what you're talking about. Sanders is himself a Jew.

Please, do try to keep up, I know these facts do tend to change on a day by day basis.
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Old 02-02-2016, 08:56 AM
BrainGlutton BrainGlutton is offline
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You seem confused, so he's not a democratic socialist and he's not a communist, then what is he?
A social democrat. Something rather bland and middle-of-the-road by international standards.
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Old 02-02-2016, 09:26 AM
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Or maybe you just so easily substituted "jews" for "money & banks" for a more obvious reason.
Obviously he's trying to discredit Sanders as a candidate. I mean a person who would target an entire religion is clearly unfit to be President.
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Old 02-02-2016, 10:02 AM
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You seem confused, so he's not a democratic socialist and he's not a communist, then what is he? And Reagan's support for horrible right wing anti-communist dictatorships didn't seem to hurt his popularity much, oops, sorry that was when he was in office, not when he was young and foolish.
Reagan's support for right-wing dictatorships was based on national interest, support of allies. There was never a US interest in supporting our adversaries. "Well, you supported Pinochet and Marcos and Chung Hee Park!" just doesn't work as a comeback to supporting the Soviets and Castro.
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Old 02-02-2016, 10:04 AM
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A social democrat. Something rather bland and middle-of-the-road by international standards.
In reality, he's not really that either. He's a weird American version of a social democrat where the rich are expected to somehow pay for free stuff for everyone else. There's no social solidarity, the middle class is supposed to somehow get a free ride in all of this and is absolved of any responsibility whatsoever for lifting up the poor.

The middle class being broadly responsible for reducing wealth inequality is a key feature of European social democracy. Leaving that out makes it a totally different animal.

So let's just call him a left wing populist.
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Old 02-02-2016, 10:29 AM
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Reagan's support for right-wing dictatorships was based on national interest, support of allies. There was never a US interest in supporting our adversaries. "Well, you supported Pinochet and Marcos and Chung Hee Park!" just doesn't work as a comeback to supporting the Soviets and Castro.
Selling arms to a country that only a few years earlier had taken over our embassy and held our citizens hostage for over a year doesn't qualify as "supporting our adversaries"??
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Old 02-02-2016, 11:47 AM
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The middle class being broadly responsible for reducing wealth inequality is a key feature of European social democracy.
I've no idea how the figures stack up for either the EU or Sanders's proposals, but the key point here is a fair contribution for a fair share of whatever service(s) we're talking about: achieving buy-in by creating a service the middle classes - even the rich - use as much as the working class and underclass. Both sides of the equation are equally important.
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Old 02-02-2016, 11:55 AM
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He honeymooned in the Soviet Union.
Seriously, adaher?

It was a working vacation- the twelve-person delegation left the day after he and his wife got married. The city they visited? It was the sister city of the town he was mayor of at the time. He was working the entire time they were there. Hardly romantic, hardly a vacation.
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Old 02-02-2016, 12:07 PM
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Only one answer, only one thing trumps hammer and sickle: he has to go swastika.
Or just use the new Trump logo.
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Old 02-02-2016, 12:10 PM
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So those statements are acceptable when directed against the wealthy, but not against Jews?
As a wealthy secular Jew, I can say yes too.
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Old 02-02-2016, 12:20 PM
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He honeymooned in the Soviet Union. He's not "Democratic socialist" except to the extent that he needs to be to get elected. He also seemed to be a fan of Castro and the Sandinistas in the 80s.
He also went to Daniel Ortega's inauguration, as I recall.

He can't hide what he is.
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Old 02-02-2016, 12:41 PM
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He also went to Daniel Ortega's inauguration, as I recall.

He can't hide what he is.
And Jane Fonda went to North Vietnam, but that don't make her no Commie.
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Old 02-02-2016, 12:43 PM
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Selling arms to a country that only a few years earlier had taken over our embassy and held our citizens hostage for over a year doesn't qualify as "supporting our adversaries"??
Is there any Republican who supported the arms for hostages deal other than Reagan?
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Old 02-02-2016, 12:44 PM
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Seriously, adaher?

It was a working vacation- the twelve-person delegation left the day after he and his wife got married. The city they visited? It was the sister city of the town he was mayor of at the time. He was working the entire time they were there. Hardly romantic, hardly a vacation.
That's a reasonable defense. Which is the purpose of this thread.

My own view of Sanders is that he's a leftist activist who hasn't given quite enough thought to what that means. He's got his own views, and they are unique, so even his self labelling isn't quite fair to himself.
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Old 02-02-2016, 12:50 PM
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He honeymooned in the Soviet Union. He's not "Democratic socialist" except to the extent that he needs to be to get elected. He also seemed to be a fan of Castro and the Sandinistas in the 80s.

Now I don't believe he's a communist, but his rather typical leftist cluelessness about horrible dictatorships when he was relatively younger is always useful fodder if you can get it.
The 1950s called. They want The Red Scare back.

Seriously, there is no way that ANY Republican can criticize ANY Democrat on foreign policy. There was Bush's two disastrous, costly, and totally futile wars in the Middle East, Reagan invading Grenada and selling arms to Iran, Bush's "axis of evil", Trump's Muslim ban, we could be here all day talking about Republican foreign policy missteps.
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Old 02-02-2016, 12:53 PM
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That's a good comeback too, but it doesn't get you out of the moral dimension. Republicans can be criticized for too much moralization in foreign policy and not enough realism. Sanders also embraces a moralistic foreign policy, except he thinks our historic adversaries were right.

It's a far cry from Obama's foreign policy, which if anything has been coldly realist.
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Old 02-02-2016, 12:56 PM
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That's a reasonable defense. Which is the purpose of this thread.

My own view of Sanders is that he's a leftist activist who hasn't given quite enough thought to what that means. He's got his own views, and they are unique, so even his self labelling isn't quite fair to himself.
Yeah he's only been a lefty politician for 40 years. I doubt he has really got a handle on his own political views.

Last edited by CarnalK; 02-02-2016 at 12:57 PM.
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Old 02-02-2016, 12:58 PM
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They are unique to him, so he doesn't really have a handle on who his fellow travellers actually are. I'd say he owes more to Lafollette than Scandinavia.
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Old 02-02-2016, 12:59 PM
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That's a good comeback too, but it doesn't get you out of the moral dimension. Republicans can be criticized for too much moralization in foreign policy and not enough realism. Sanders also embraces a moralistic foreign policy, except he thinks our historic adversaries were right.
Are you planning to provide anything that even looks like a cite for your claim that "Sanders..thinks our historic adversaries were right"?
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Old 02-02-2016, 01:03 PM
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They are unique to him, so he doesn't really have a handle on who his fellow travellers actually are. I'd say he owes more to Lafollette than Scandinavia.
You know he's won and lost a lot of elections, right? I am sure he is quite aware of his fellow travelers.
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Old 02-02-2016, 01:07 PM
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He had kind words for Castro:

http://www.progressivestoday.com/ber...in-1985-video/
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Old 02-02-2016, 01:08 PM
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Are all the hit ads going to feature 30+ year old events?
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Old 02-02-2016, 01:09 PM
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You know he's won and lost a lot of elections, right? I am sure he is quite aware of his fellow travelers.
So he is a socialist as he says. Thank you.

You know we don't even need to exaggerate with the hammer and sickle. Just play video of him calling himself a socialist, observing that Soviet health care is cheaper, and that Castro's people don't rebel because he gave them education and health care.

I'd note that Clinton allies, as in 2008,. are doing a lot of testing of these messages for us on a smaller scale.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/...b00e2cd5e79e11
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Old 02-02-2016, 01:10 PM
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Are all the hit ads going to feature 30+ year old events?
When you're as old as he is, 30 years isn't youthful naivete. This is not John Kerry throwing his medals.
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Old 02-02-2016, 01:12 PM
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Caveats: A) I think this was a response to my request for a cite. B) I didn't watch the video, but I assume the quotes were the relevant parts.

This is one of those "Mussolini made the trains run on time" types of things. Willingness to admit Castro did some things well in Cuba is hardly the same as thinking our historic adversaries were right. IE, "Right about some things" < "Right."
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Old 02-02-2016, 01:15 PM
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When you're as old as he is, 30 years isn't youthful naivete. This is not John Kerry throwing his medals.
I didn't bring up youthful naivete. Most normal people evolve over that course of time. If all the hit ads feature videos of a 35 year old Sanders, people will notice how far back his haters are reaching. Most people favour opening up to Cuba, showing hit ads about Castro isn't going to help in the general much.

Last edited by CarnalK; 02-02-2016 at 01:18 PM.
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Old 02-02-2016, 01:18 PM
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And Jane Fonda went to North Vietnam, but that don't make her no Commie.
Does not matter. When the paint brush starts working that the label for him.

I find it somewhat interesting that defenders of Bernie do not want his early in life actions to besmirch his name now. Not like you would not use the equivalent to paint who you not like on the other side.

Sorry its a fair paint brush to use, and he has plenty in his past to fuel it.
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Old 02-02-2016, 01:19 PM
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Remember that I'm just telling you guys what Republicans(and to a lesser extent, Clinton allies) are going to be pulling out. I think the reason these attacks will be more effective than you think are:

1) Sanders calls himself a socialist. If he was running as a moderate Democrat, this would be Clinton-type stuff. But people will be inclined to interpret these things more negatively given Sanders' self-labelling.

2) Once the public gets a load of what Sanders' proposed tax rates are, they'll already be inclined to think of him as damn near Stalin. While Sanders is defending himself from "Hammer and Sickle" attacks, he also has to defend his tax plan, which for the middle class, mostly just substitutes taxes for health insurance premiums. He's going to need a lot of skill as a politician to navigate these waters.
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Old 02-02-2016, 01:24 PM
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Remember that I'm just telling you guys what Republicans(and to a lesser extent, Clinton allies) are going to be pulling out. I think the reason these attacks will be more effective than you think are:

1) Sanders calls himself a socialist. If he was running as a moderate Democrat, this would be Clinton-type stuff. But people will be inclined to interpret these things more negatively given Sanders' self-labelling.

2) Once the public gets a load of what Sanders' proposed tax rates are, they'll already be inclined to think of him as damn near Stalin. While Sanders is defending himself from "Hammer and Sickle" attacks, he also has to defend his tax plan, which for the middle class, mostly just substitutes taxes for health insurance premiums. He's going to need a lot of skill as a politician to navigate these waters.
Nice retreat from "Sanders..thinks our historic adversaries were right" to "Republicans are going to claim that Sanders thinks our historic adversaries were right." You went from an uncited and incorrect position to a prediction about the future that is likely correct, and you probably didn't even notice!
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Old 02-02-2016, 01:30 PM
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Nice retreat from "Sanders..thinks our historic adversaries were right" to "Republicans are going to claim that Sanders thinks our historic adversaries were right." You went from an uncited and incorrect position to a prediction about the future that is likely correct, and you probably didn't even notice!
In adaher's defence, he's a right wing activist who probably hasn't given quite enough thought into what that means.

Last edited by CarnalK; 02-02-2016 at 01:35 PM.
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Old 02-02-2016, 01:33 PM
Qin Shi Huangdi Qin Shi Huangdi is offline
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Run as a nationalist-going to the USSR is kid's stuff compared to the way Wall Street and the plutocracy has been shafting the working people of this country. Don't just say they are greedy or corrupt-say that the 1%ers are traitors whose primary loyalty is to Mammon not the flag.
  #46  
Old 02-02-2016, 01:39 PM
Qin Shi Huangdi Qin Shi Huangdi is offline
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That's a good comeback too, but it doesn't get you out of the moral dimension. Republicans can be criticized for too much moralization in foreign policy and not enough realism. Sanders also embraces a moralistic foreign policy, except he thinks our historic adversaries were right.

It's a far cry from Obama's foreign policy, which if anything has been coldly realist.
Sanders is pretty realist on foreign policy-he is no Ralph Nader who thinks the US should withdraw its military from all over the world but on the other hand he is extremely sceptical of regime change in the Middle East.
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Old 02-02-2016, 01:42 PM
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Run as a nationalist-going to the USSR is kid's stuff compared to the way Wall Street and the plutocracy has been shafting the working people of this country. Don't just say they are greedy or corrupt-say that the 1%ers are traitors whose primary loyalty is to Mammon not the flag.
Changing the subject is often criticized on the Dope, but it's brilliant political strategy. Clinton did it in his run. "Forget about my personal life, let's talk about the issues." It worked well, as it should have given the times.
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Old 02-02-2016, 02:31 PM
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Conservatives itching to use 80 year old Red Scare tactics on Bernie Sanders. Should work well on people voting from their death beds!
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Old 02-02-2016, 03:04 PM
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Talk about all the popular programs that were deemed communist when they first came out and talk about how conservatives were wrong to oppose those programs then and are wrong to oppose programs now.

Medicare, medicaid, minimum wage, social security, child labor laws, etc.

Progressives have no view of history.
Very clever -- you're suggesting that Sanders respond with an argument that "The American people are communists too; they just don't know it."

Powerful stuff.
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Old 02-02-2016, 03:18 PM
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"Mr. Trump. Tear. Down. That. Wall."
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