Hypocricy of Christianity in regard to stem cells

[Acco40]

This is my first Pit rant. I hope it burns hot.

One of my highly-devout-Jesus-fish co-workers was soooo happy to hear the other day that her hero conservative "Dubya" had banned further research on stem cells.

Now, it doesn't sit well with me that the religious right who believe in fairy tales are potentially deciding the fate of MY life by retarding the speed of research which may eventually save my life. That bugs me.

What bugs me more is the way that said co-worker can fluff off any question she receives about stem cell research in particular.

Me: "You know, in fertility clinics they sometimes fail and death to clumps of cells ensues. Are you against fertility clinics?"
Her: "No."
Me: "So, you AREN'T against the death of these cell clumps, but you ARE against the research done on them? Am I hearing you correctly?"
Her: "Yes. Stem-cell research is just... wrong."
Me: "So why is it wrong? You know, when you were a baby, they injected you with booster shots developed from research on aborted fetuses... is that wrong? Are you against booster shots for babies?"
Her: "Of course not... [getting uncomfortable now] You know Acco, everyone has their opinions. I have the right to mine."

Someone on this board has a sig that reads something like this: Everyone is entitled to an informed opinion. I love that because it is so right-on.

I busted that out, and she sauntered off, miffed. Since then, our friendliness factor has suffered, but you know what? Fuck it. I can safely say that my tolerance for fundies is dead and rotting in the Hell that they so faithfully believe in.

How can she so easily let the church do her thinking for her on an issue of such importance? Is she a mentally lifeless, slobbering idiot? Does she question her beliefs ever? Can the church ever be wrong? Apparently not.

Is there any room upstairs for mental processes in that head so packed full of rigid religious nonsense? WTF!

These are the types of people who rule America. We are fuckin' doomed.

[Saint Zero]

It must be so wonderful to note that after bludgeoning your ex-friend with badly formed arguements, you have the wisdom and understanding to immediately lump all "Fundamentalist Christians" into the same bucket.

I don't blame her for ignoring you. I'll do the same from now on, I think.

[magdalene]

Acco40, truly you have a dizzying intellect. Those back issues of Time magazine you read in the doctor's waiting room plus your wicked debating style and super-enhanced self-awareness make you a formidable opponent.

People who oppose stem-cell research fear the slippery slope. They can see the possible benefits for people with degenerative diseases. They understand that "stem cells" are a by-product of fertility clinics and abortions that are already taking place. But they fear commercialization of the process, increasing market demand for stem cells to the point where people are creating embryos (either in a lab or the old fashioned way) for the sole purpose of research and treating diseases.

So, to recap:

Supporting fertility clinics does not equal supporting stem cell research.

Supporting childhood vaccines does not equal supporting stem stell research. Your friend was a baby and unable to make decisions for herself when she received her booster shots. I admit that I was not aware that vaccines were developed through research on aborted fetuses (anything is possible). I'd be interested in seeing a cite for that.

Ambivalence about the ethics of stem cell research does not make one a fundamentalist Christian, or anything else that you can label.

Your logic is poor, your arguments faulty, and your arrogance is amusing.

[Acco40]

Acco40, truly you have a dizzying intellect. Those back issues of Time magazine you read in the doctor's waiting room plus your wicked debating style and super-enhanced self-awareness make you a formidable opponent.

Thanks for the cross-eyed compliment. I'll take it.

But they fear commercialization of the process, increasing market demand for stem cells to the point where people are creating embryos (either in a lab or the old fashioned way) for the sole purpose of research and treating diseases.

Oh, and thereby possibly saving lives of people who are already here. What a travesty.

Commercialization of the process will happen no matter what... eventually. Without public research dollars though, it will make it easier for private biotech companies to gain a stranglehold on the treatments - and the costs.

Originally posted by Saint Zero:
It must be so wonderful to note that after bludgeoning your ex-friend with badly formed arguements, you have the wisdom and understanding to immediately lump all "Fundamentalist Christians" into the same bucket.

Well, I gotta do what I can, those Fundies are a slippery bunch.

I don't blame her for ignoring you. I'll do the same from now on, I think.

I'm heartbroken. Who are you again?

[Saint Zero]

Originally posted by Acco40
I'm heartbroken. Who are you again?

I'm more of a person than you can hope to be, little one. Go play elsewhere.

[Waverly]

My understanding of the Bush decision is that he merely limited federal funding to 60 existing lines of cells. He didn’t ‘ban’ any research. I think it’s valid science, but deserves the public’s scrutiny. Under no circumstance should trade in embryos become a commercial endeavor. I’m confident that if the existing lines of cells prove insufficient while scientific gains are being made, the decision will be re-evaluated at that time. Bush’s limits are a bit stringent, but research will continue.

I don’t enjoy being set upon by holy rollers, but your description of the discussion makes you look like the aggressor. I’d also advise against letting friendships suffer because of differences in religion or politics. Discussion is one thing, but in the end people are allowed their opinions. I’ve argued with many creationists, and when the vast majority of them departed no more enlightened than when they arrived, I shook their hands and wished them well.

[Enderw24]

He's the Patron Saint of nothingness. Don't you read sigs?

Oh and since this is the pit...I'll throw all logic to the wind and ignore every well reasoned counter argument or degrade it with my pithy retorts.

Ignore a part of what you believe for a moment and take a look at what magdalene is saying. Imagine that an embryo isn't just a lump of cells but an actual human life. I know this isn't what you believe, but pretend it is because many many people in this nation do believe it. They're not all fundementalists and some of them are
*gasp* pro-choice.
Magdalene is saying that one line of arguments is that we'd be creating lives just to kill them. You say "but we'd be saving lives," true...at the cost of lives. So if you consider an embryo to be a life form, or a potential life form, how many of those must you create and kill to justify saving someone else's life?
Should we kill 200,000 embryos in the hopes of creating a vaccine? Well fine then. Let's round up 200,000 homeless and experiment on them. After all, we're saving lives here. Can't put a price on that.

Now you can sweep it all under the rug by saying "but *I* don't believe they're alive." Fine then. Wonderful. And that invalidates their opinion how?

[andros]

Everyone is entitled to an informed opinion

[/quote]I can safely say that my tolerance for fundies is dead and rotting in the Hell that they so faithfully believe in. [/quote]

Errrr . . . doesn't an informed opinion require an open mind?

[Acco40]

Originally posted by Enderw24:
Imagine that an embryo isn't just a lump of cells but an actual human life.

One of the major points for stem cell research is that the embryonic stage represents "the beginnings of human life", as Bush said... not actual human life. Any? biologist will admit that these cell clusters aren't alive.

Originally posted by Waverly:
[Bush] didn’t ‘ban’ any research.

Yes, but by stopping federal funding for future endeavors, he might as well have.

I don’t enjoy being set upon by holy rollers, but your description of the discussion makes you look like the aggressor.

Yes. I tend to get fired up about subjects which I feel strongly about... and I doubtlessly was the aggressor in that situation.

I’d also advise against letting friendships suffer because of differences in religion or politics.

I have since apologized to the co-worker in question for my ahem, insistance, and things are smoothed over. However I feel no less passionate about the validity of the pro-stem cell argument.

Originally posted by me:
Well, I gotta do what I can, those Fundies are a slippery bunch.

Just to clarify: this was written with the intent to indicate that all religious fundamentalists are against stem-cell research, and if they are pro stem-cell research, then they are not truly fundamental.

If I was mistaken in this assumption, I apologize fully.

[JeffB]

Originally posted by Acco40
One of the major points for stem cell research is that the embryonic stage represents "the beginnings of human life", as Bush said... not actual human life. Any? biologist will admit that these cell clusters aren't alive.

I think you'd be hard pressed to find a biologist who would claim that those cells are not alive.

Originally posted by Waverly:
[Bush] didn’t ‘ban’ any research.

Yes, but by stopping federal funding for future endeavors, he might as well have.[/quote]

Your OP stated specifically that Bush "had banned further research on stem cells," a claim that is clearly false. All Bush did was limit (not ban) federal funding at the present time. Federally funded research will continue, and there is no limit on non-federally funded research. (This is not like proposed legislation to make human cloning illegal.)

Originally posted by me:
Well, I gotta do what I can, those Fundies are a slippery bunch.

Just to clarify: this was written with the intent to indicate that all religious fundamentalists are against stem-cell research, and if they are pro stem-cell research, then they are not truly fundamental.

If I was mistaken in this assumption, I apologize fully. [/quote]

So you have unilaterally defined "fundamentalist Christian" to require opposition to stem-cell research? On what basis? Fundamentalism has nothing whatsoever to do with stem-cell research. The prime characteristic of Fundamentalism is belief in a literal interpretation of the Bible. The Bible doesn't mention stem-cell research anywhere.

For the record, I think Bush's decision was okay, though I wish he had gone further and allowed funding for stem-cell research on existing embryos.

[Mahaloth]

Boy, I bet this thread didn't go the way Acco40 hoped it would. Well, I've been there and I thought I'd drop by and give some advice.

People here at the SDMB don't mind when people are wrong, we mind when people have a lethal combination of arrogance, close-mindedness, and impatience. You, my friend, had all three of these things in aces. Now everyone makes mistakes and the best thing is to simply walk away.

You see, your understanding is not as full as you want everyone to think it is. You have simply gathered the evidence required to support your predetermined position. One key to making a good argument is to not diminish the other person by accusing them of believing in "fairy-tales" or grouping all fundies together based of your limited experience with a handful.

I would not assume that just because someon believes in Jesus and is against Stem-Cell research that he/she has never "questoined their beliefs" or that they believe the "church is never wrong". You provided no proof that this individual has been a blind-faith believer their entire life. I'd be impressed if you had any proof of that.

Of course, when Saint Zero critiqued your comments and said they would ignore you, you said, "I'm heartbroken. Who are you again?" This is more sad than it is aggravating. Do you see how negative and arrogant that sounds? It diminishes the value of the person and makes it appear as if you are a king or dictator before whom we should all bow.

Not only that, but you didn't respond to the critique. Saint said that you shouldn't lump everyone together. You simply said, "Well, I gotta do what I can, those Fundies are a slippery bunch." Sounds like you are at war with these people. Why did you group all fundies together? Because they are slippery? Huh?

It all sounds like a lot of bottled up rage. Of course, you could just dismiss me as well. It's your choice.

[Dr. Lao]

Most fundamentalists I have talked to are against abortion, stem cell research, and in vitro fertilization. That seems consistant enough for me. So, there you go.

[musicguy]

Acco40,

I'm with you every step of the way. Apparently Bush announced today that he will veto any attempts to expand this research. This just goes to show that he is only willing to do as little as possible, and is really only concerned with how this will affect the 2004 election, as is the case with every decision he makes.

I, for one, don't understand why the religious folk should even have a say in anything related to science. In the first place, this is a government decision, wouldn't separation of church and state apply? Also, since when has anyone who is religious been known to have an open mind towards anything scientific? The idea that they want a say in making a scientific decision is downright scary. I don't ask an 8 yr old for tax advice and I don't ask a christian for scientific input. Blind faith has no place in the scientific community and I'm tired of it. If anything, doesn't using these cells give them a purpose instead of just something to be discarded? That seems to be morally a better way to go. We can throw them away or use them to help develop cures for some of the awful diseases that ruin peoples lives. I bet if Bush had a spinal injury, he would have a different opinion.

[andros]

Also, since when has anyone who is religious been known to have an open mind towards anything scientific?

Riiiight. I forgot that no scientists are religious. Silly me.

Dumbass.

[Lemur866]

musicguy, have you even bothered to pay attention? Do you even bother to think, or is this just the random twitchings of spinal cord reflexes that made you post? Do you understand that the constitution doesn't bar religious people from participating in the politcal process but rather the reverse?

[Waverly]

Dr. Lao:

Most fundamentalists I have talked to...

This is a true statement. However, you should recognize that you say most and not all, and that this sampling is limited to those that you personally have talked to. I still don’t think it’s fair tactics to make sweeping generalizations based on this information.

Musicguy:

since when has anyone who is religious been known to have an open mind towards anything scientific

OMG. Please don’t associate scientists with such generalizations.

...idea that they want a say in making a scientific decision is downright scary

It’s not solely a scientific decision, and in a democracy people get a say.

Once again, I believe it is valid science and should be pursued, but if we are going to discuss it you need to treat the other side fairly. You would never accept similar generalizations and over simplifications coming from a dreaded ‘fundy’.

[Sauron]

Originally posted by musicguy
Also, since when has anyone who is religious been known to have an open mind towards anything scientific?

Please allow me to introduce myself. I'm a man of wealth and taste.

However, I'm relatively quiet. Comes from introspection and overall shyness. That's probably why you didn't think of me immediately before posting that rather inflammatory statement above.

To prove my willingness to view the scientific method with an open mind, despite my admitted Christian beliefs, I would be receptive to a study to determine the logistics (or at least to ascertain if the possibility even exists) of removing your cranium (and that of Acco40) from your respective rectums.

[musicguy]

Musicguy:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
since when has anyone who is religious been known to have an open mind towards anything scientific
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Waverly: OMG. Please don’t associate scientists with such generalizations.

I was generalizing christians. They completely disregard science in the area of evolution, rather choosing to believe in a fairy tale. Their credibility was shot long before I made my accusation.



musicguy quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
...idea that they want a say in making a scientific decision is downright scary
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Waverly wrote: It’s not solely a scientific decision, and in a democracy people get a say.

People get a say in the sense that they choose who will be their leaders. Of course, since our leader wasn't chosen by the people, but rather the supreme court, I guess our voices weren't heard in that regard either. That will be fixed in 2004. I also maintain that in matters of science, scientists should be listened to much more than someone who believes in myths. It's wonderful to say that this is a democracy and we all have a say but we didn't vote for this, Bush chose it. That doesn't sound very democratic to me. He knows what the right choice was but instead chose to do as little as possible, so as to not piss of the precious few that voted for him. His choice was not scientific but political and we could use a hell of a lot less of that type of decision making.

[Lemur866]

Musicguy, I guess I was right when I said you don't pay attention. So I'm going to post in all caps, bolded:

MANY CHRISTIANS BELIEVE IN EVOLUTION.
MANY CHRISTIANS ARE PRO-CHOICE.
MANY CHRISTIANS ARE SCIENTISTS.

Perhaps that will gently push you to consider the possibility that you suffer from craniorectal inversion.

[Waverly]

I was generalizing christians. They completely disregard science in the area of evolution, rather choosing to believe in a fairy tale. Their credibility was shot long before I made my accusation

This is a joke, correct? If not you should run. Run fast and far before the next person sees this. Don’t you wish the edit option was enabled? I’m no longer what one could consider catholic, but my father is, and he has a fine scientific mind. Care to insult my family again? I assure you I am not always nice.

[musicguy]

Sauron,

I would like to see you try. Leave it to a christian to suggest a violent means to and end. Do you shoot abortion doctors as well? A man of wealth, taste, and dementia. What a combination!

Although, if your experiment were to be carried out on you and myself, I'll bet my brain would be larger. That's probably just because mine gets more use.

[Sauron]

Originally posted by musicguy
I was generalizing christians. They completely disregard science in the area of evolution, rather choosing to believe in a fairy tale. Their credibility was shot long before I made my accusation.

Well, at least we won't have to waste any money on that potentially groundbreaking cranium/rectum experiment. Thanks for letting us know that before we proceeded further.

[magdalene]

Musicguy:

Here on the SDMB we poke holes in the arguments of all kinds of people who have bad arguments - some of them are fundamentalist Christians, some of them are guys who spend too much time thinking about penises. We do this by coming up with better and more logical arguments, not by spreading puerile religious prejudices.

[Sauron]

Originally posted by musicguy
Although, if your experiment were to be carried out on you and myself, I'll bet my brain would be larger. That's probably just because mine gets more use.

Or you could be hydrocephalic. Not accusing, just pointing out optional hypotheses. Scientists often do this, you know.

[Lemur866]

Hmmmmm. Seems we have another situation where musicguy simply cannot be bothered to pay attention to what people write. When Sauron posted about how we should study whether musicguy's craniorectal inversion could possibly someday be cured, musicguy inexplicably assumed it was some sort of violent threat.

Bizarre.

[ultrafilter]

Originally posted by musicguy
Sauron,

I would like to see you try. Leave it to a christian to suggest a violent means to and end. Do you shoot abortion doctors as well? A man of wealth, taste, and dementia. What a combination!

Although, if your experiment were to be carried out on you and myself, I'll bet my brain would be larger. That's probably just because mine gets more use.

As a non-Christian, I would like to advise you to shut the hell up. You don't know what you're talking about, and your statements are on a level with any racist glurge I've ever heard.

Let me repeat: I am not a Christian. Yet I know, from talking to people, as well as reading here, that many Christians believe in evolution, many Christians are pro-choice, many Christians are scientists, and many Christians are more open-minded than you. I know that I'm repeating what somebody else said; I also know that it didn't sink in last time. I'm hoping repetition will work.

[andros]

musicguy, I think I get your joke.

It's all very subtle and ironic. No wonder everyone else here missed it. You are brilliant and incisive.



Well, either that or you're a complete fucking idiot wasting time before your high school classes start up again.

One of the two.

[Crunchy Frog]

Originally posted by musicguy
I was generalizing christians. They completely disregard science in the area of evolution, rather choosing to believe in a fairy tale. Their credibility was shot long before I made my accusation.

Hello, musicguy. I am a Christian. However I am also human, so please bear with me as I call you an asshole.

Stop this stupid over-generalizitaion. Because first off, the story of creation is not limited to the Christians. It was the Jews' idea first. Some (note I said some, not all) Christians tend to be more vocal about it. "Christian" is not one religion. We do not all think alike. I disagree vehemently with Mormons, Fundies, and much of Catholic doctrine along with many other denominations. I do not go to any specific church because I don't think any one denomination has gotten it right yet. I don't think I've got it quite right either, but it works for me.

I believe the earth is billions of years old. I believe life evolved on this planet. I believe homosexuality is not evil. I am pro-choice. I believe in sex education in the schools. I believe the Bible is a book, and as such open to a wide variety of interpretation since all other books I've read use metaphor and symbolism to get their points across and not meant to be taken literally.

I cannot stand the close-minded attitude that some Christians have to science, nor can I stand the contempt some scientists have for Christians. You don't have to agree, but you don't have to belittle us either. You have the same distgusting self-righteous attitude you accuse the Christians of. You choose to believe in evolution the same as they choose to believe in creation. Guess what, maybe you're both wrong, did that ever occur to you? Probably not, because you are so secure in your absolute knowledge of your scientific righteousness that the possiblity of being wrong is inconceivable. Sound familiar? Maybe like the Fundies who are so filled of thier own self-righteousness that they put bumper stickers on their cars that say "In Case of Rapture This Car will be Unmanned."

And Acco40. In regards to the subject line alone: Hypocricy of Christianity in regard to stem cells. What?! Christians can be hypocritical at times? What a fucking news flash! Why, that would make them, what, human, I guess, huh? And as such subject to human flaws, such as not being correct 100% of the time, maybe even being misguided from time to time. Wow, I never realized that! Yes, many Christians can be hypocritical, many bad things have been done in the name of religion, many "Christians" are not people I would want as role models for my kids.

But don't get all holier-than-thou yourself and condemn the whole for the acts of the few with whom you've interacted.

[musicguy]

Boy, don't insult a christian, they get violent. I'm sure your god is very proud of you.

And Waverly, yes, it is very evident that you are not always nice. Are you ever?

Lemurr: (or is that lemming)

you say "many christians believe in evolution" ???

You are kidding, right?

[wring]

Originally posted by musicguy
you say "many christians believe in evolution" ???

You are kidding, right?

I doubt that Lemurr is kidding, and furthermore, I suppose, also they are correct.

What you seem to be assuming is that anyone who identifies themselves as a Christian, must also suscribe to 100% of what you presume to be the ideology of the 'fundementalist'. Given the number of different sects of Christianity, that's a pretty broad assumption to make. Hell, even under the classifications of (say) Lutheran, there are ideological differences.

Whenever one makes an attempt to define all of the beliefs of any particular individual based on their self identification with a group, there are problems.

See also: Republican/Democrate; Liberal/Conservative etc.

[Crunchy Frog]

Originally posted by musicguy
Boy, don't insult a christian, they get violent. I'm sure your god is very proud of you.

And where exactly did anyone get violent? I see no instances of anyone threatening harm to you here.

However, your behavior is showing us not to contridict anyone who isn't religious because they'll just ignore your comments without bothering to listen.

(Of course I know that's not entirely true. Just the assholes, which is an affliction beyond race, color, creed, sexual preference, or religious belief.)

you say "many christians believe in evolution" ???

You are kidding, right?

More evidence that you are just talking out of your ass and are not bothering to read anything that's been said to you. You are as close-minded as the people you rail against.

[andros]

Why is it only the total fucking idiots who insist on calling me a Christian?

[musicguy]

Crunchy Frog,

So, Christianity isn't one religion? Hmm, interesting concept. And did you ever consider that I stated I was generalizing? I know there are exceptions. I would venture to say though that most true Christians would think that you follow a very different religion than they do. I didn't realize that you were able to make your own rules up as you go. You believe in evolution, homosexuality is fine, the bible is just a book, and people who don't agree with your unique views are assholes. That sounds like a great religion. Where do I sign up?

Now, could any one of you explain how a Christian can believe in evolution. This is a new concept to me. You do or don't believe in the bible? Or are you just making it up as you go. This is fascinating

[andros]

Sigh.

Not all Christians are Biblical literalists, musicguy.

[manhattan]

Wow. And I thought it was only a few fundies who subscribed to that whole "Catholics aren't Christian" crap.

Or were you wholly unaware, mg, that Catholics believe in evolution.

[musicguy]

To all of you,

I think you have a right to believe anything you want, about me, about religion, about stem cell research. But as a gay male, I have been ridiculed and persecuted all of my life because of who I am, not what I believe but what I am. That is a generalization. And as a male with Parkinsons disease, I am offended when peoples religious beliefs interfere with scientific research that may someday provide a cure for me. They don't take a minute to walk in my shoes or try to envision what it must be like. They make blanket statements that this research is wrong without ever thinking about the people this decision affects. You are all so quick to judge. I hope that you and your families lead very healthy lives and are never placed in this situation. I've been called every name in the book here, some of it justified. I knew I would get a reaction. But I don't think any of you are assholes and I think you have all made your points quite elequently. I am mad at "religion" folks, and at the people who follow it blindly, without ever wondering if they are hurting people in the process. Do I think all Christians are bad people? Absolutely not. I personally like the morals that it attempts to convey for the most part. I think that some Christians do a lot of good in this world. But I can still criticize the hippocracy, especially when it affects my life.

[manhattan]

So you're willing to distort facts and misrepresent your own position in pursuit of an agenda.

That makes you worse than any fundy, since you know better.

Shame on you.

[Nocturne]

Christians can believe in evolution because many of them think that the Biblical creation story is not to be taken literally, that the "days" that God created the earth were not necessarily 24-hour days, there were just named "days" to distinguish them as separate periods.

I can't believe that you in all your brilliance couldn't do a search and FIND THIS OUT.

God bless you all the same.

[Waverly]

And Waverly, yes, it is very evident that you are not always nice. Are you ever?

Sometimes. I actually am not aware of giving any member of this forum more than a good-natured poke, yourself included. Don’t you find it odd that although I’m not religious, in favor of stem cell research, pro-choice, and a scientist that I have no common ground with you? You’ve made some fundamental errors, including but not limited to:

• -attacking people instead of ideas
  -not differentiating between the dozens of Christian religions and not stating exactly what tenets they hold that you find so odious.
  -making sweeping generalization based on little fact
  -failing to digest what others are telling you to the point of rudeness

I would much rather carry on a sane discussion with an intelligent fundamentalist than with someone who so blindly injures so many groups (including scientist, by giving others an example of how closed minded they can be).

In short (and I know you need a summary) you have taken a deep draught from the flagon of ignorance, in fact you have swallowed the worm.

[Crunchy Frog]

BTW - Acco and musicguy, you two may want to read this thread. It was aimed at Teenage Newbies, and although I don't know how old the two of you are, it seems to qualify as being necessary reading in this case.

Especially important for you to learn are the phrases:

-Knowing a few intelligent-sounding words like "plethora" does not immediately make you intelligent. Intelligent posting is what makes you intelligent. Hell, I know what plethora means.

-"La la la I can't hear you" is not a valid argument...

Learn it and live it. Or just shut up already.
Pick one, would ya?

And musicguy - do have have a comprehension problem? I know you were generalizing, but if I made the same sort of negative sweeping generalizations of blacks or gays or women, I'd be flamed and torn to shreds so quickly that... well I don't know, but pretty fucking quickly.

I've already stated that I do not belong to any specific denomination. To me, being a Christian is not about going to church every Sunday and taking the Bible literally, especially a book as old and as translated so many times. To me, being a Christian is trusting that Christ died for my sins (which I do) and behaving in a way that reflects my ideals. Christ himself in the Bible encouraged people to worship their own way. I am not a part of any organized religion, so you cannot "sign up."

Now, could any one of you explain how a Christian can believe in evolution. This is a new concept to me. You do or don't believe in the bible? Or are you just making it up as you go. This is fascinating.

The basic tenents of Christianity (as I see it, I am in no way speaking for all Christians) is that you love you neighbor and love your God. Everything else falls under those two catagories. Stealing is out because that hurts your neighbor, same with lying, killing, etc. Worshipping other God and the like is out because that hurts your God.

I believe in the Bible, just not in a literal interpretation of the Bible (which I've also already stated, but you seem to have trouble keeping up). The Bibe only says God created everything, it doesn't go into detail how it was done. This leaves things wide open to interpretaion to me. And since no where in the Bible does it say "Thou shalt not believe in scientific discoveries" I feel I'm free to think for myself in that matter. So, as you can see, by believing in Christ, I consider myself a Christian, yet by understanding science, I can believe in evolution. The two do not need to be mutually exclusive.

As I said, I am not a member of any organized religion, so in a way, yes, I make it up myself. I try to be a good Christian in my behavior, not by my presence in a church or surrounding myself with like-minded individuals. However I am human and thus subject to human frailties and emotions such as anger and jealousy. When I've behaved poorly, I can admit to being wrong and admit to it and apologize in hopes of being forgiven, just as I would forgive someone who wronged me.

I think there is no one right religion, and I doubt my own ideas are the best or right ones, but they work best for me. My religion doesn't have a name. It is not legally recognized. It is not organized (hell, it's mine, I can't even organize my sock drawer).

I think the way I feel about religion can be best explained my the examples of two of my favorite films - Monty Pyhton and The Life of Brian - where the central theme of the film is to think for yourself, do not blindly follow someone else's beliefs; and Dogma - where it is stated that beliefs are dangerous, and one should have an idea. It's easier to change an idea than a belief.

You believe in evolution, homosexuality is fine, the bible is just a book, and people who don't agree with your unique views are assholes.

And here you're putting words into my mouth. I never said anyone who disagrees is an asholes, just you. And you're not an asshole for your beliefs, but for the way you are presenting yourself.

Let me quote myself with some added italics and bolding for emphasis, "Just the assholes, which is an affliction beyond race, color, creed, sexual preference, or religious belief."

If you don't believe in God, fine don't. It's no skin off my nose. I don't think everyone has to agree with what I believe. I don't hold others' beliefs in contempt. What makes you an asshole is not your lack of religious faith, but your contempt for a vast group of people based on your limited interaction and knowledge of a group of people as a whole.

[Crunchy Frog]

I posted my last post before seeing this, so I'd like to respond, without calling musicguy an asshole this time.

Originally posted by musicguy
But as a gay male, I have been ridiculed and persecuted all of my life because of who I am, not what I believe but what I am. That is a generalization.

Then you should have known better than to generalize all Christians. For the record, I had a gay uncle who died of AIDS back in the early 90s. My final split from organized religion (I'd already been drifting, but this was the final straw) came about as a result when I realized some people thought he brought his death on himself just for being gay.

They make blanket statements that this research is wrong without ever thinking about the people this decision affects.

Check out this other thread where we make fun of religious people being sheep. Unfortunately, many times people can't be bothered to think for themselves. It's unfortunate, but that's the world we live in.

I am mad at "religion" folks, and at the people who follow it blindly, without ever wondering if they are hurting people in the process.

And I was only hoping you saw a disctinction bewteen them and other Christians. With this out of the way, hopefully we can put aside the earlier disagreements.

But I can still criticize the hippocracy, especially when it affects my life.

No problem when it's there, but as has been pointed out earlier, the hypocracy here is a little fuzzy, see Enderw24's post above.

Sorry about the asshole thing.

[Waverly]

musicguy: Clearly you have not had it easy. I wish you well with your health issues. Still, you should realize that this doesn’t give you the right to mount the attacks you did. Do I even need to point out the similarity between the treatment of gays you mentioned and the unfair generalization of all Christians? Hopefully not.

[andros]

Sorry about the asshole thing.

Did anyone else just think Blazing Saddles?

[Captain Amazing]

Originally posted by musicguy
Also, since when has anyone who is religious been known to have an open mind towards anything scientific?

Well, Copernicus, and Isaac Newton, and Gregor Mendel, and Moses Maimonides, and Roger Bacon, and William of Occam, and al’Khwarizmi, and all those Babylonian priest-astronomers who charted the rising and setting of stars, and...well, I could go on, but I don't see the point.

[Guinastasia]

Originally posted by musicguy
Musicguy:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
since when has anyone who is religious been known to have an open mind towards anything scientific
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Waverly: OMG. Please don’t associate scientists with such generalizations.

I was generalizing christians. They completely disregard science in the area of evolution, rather choosing to believe in a fairy tale. Their credibility was shot long before I made my accusation.

Obviously you have yet to meet Polycarp.

And obviously you've NEVER heard of Gregor Mendel, you ignorant peabrain.

[Guinastasia]

I think there is no one right religion, and I doubt my own ideas are the best or right ones, but they work best for me. My religion doesn't have a name. It is not legally recognized. It is not organized (hell, it's mine, I can't even organize my sock drawer).

Goddammit, Crunchy, you stole MY religion!!!

Originally posted by musicguy
Boy, don't insult a christian, they get violent. I'm sure your god is very proud of you.

And Waverly, yes, it is very evident that you are not always nice. Are you ever?

Lemurr: (or is that lemming)

you say "many christians believe in evolution" ???

You are kidding, right?

Crunchy just told you he is a Christian and he believes in evolution. What part did you not understand? SOME Christians, the Catholics in particular, believe that the Bible is a set of stories teaching us EXAMPLES. I swear to God, the first person who TOLD us not everything in the Bible was 100 percent accurate was a NUN. That's right. A nun. She told us Adam and Eve was a story, because we really don't know about the first man and woman. Maybe some of us believe that GOD caused evolution. Hell, maybe we were all dropped off by a mutant race of Moon Monkeys? Who the fuck cares?

AND YOU are making blanket statements about what-30 percent of the population? Oh yes...that's REALLY using your brain.

BTW, what is this 'hippocracy' and how does it affect your life? Isn't that a state run by hippos?




Good LORD....we are really knocking down these straw men, aren't we folks?

Wanna place bets on how long this guy lasts around here?

[Enderw24]

I remember the Jewish History class I took in college. The professor, who was a rabbi, started talking about the pre-history of man, begining 50,000 years ago.
I was confused. I was befuddled. I was perplexed and bewildered. *I* knew that we were around back then, but this guy was a rabbi. He's not supposed to believe that, is he? We were created almost 5762 years ago through a few snaps of God's fingers.
So I asked him after class. And he shrugged his shoulders and basically told me "why should I start lying to teach this class? We're trying to learn Jewish history here. The bible is a tool in getting that history, but it's not the truth, merely a group of moralistic lessons to learn."

The bible doesn't have to be The Bible. You can Believe without really believing. You can even not believe at all, but still understand.

Or you can say, to hell with it all, it's all a bunch of fairy tales and anything even remotely associated with it is more looney than Bugs Bunny. I, as an open minded individual, refuse to listen to you because you're close minded. I can support my hipocracy because my penis is a good inch longer than yours.

If you get nothing else from this rambling post, please at least understand this: when the people that support your side start arguing against you because they're embarrassed to be even be associated with your total lack of a coherent thought, you've pretty much lost the argument.

[panzermanpanzerman]

Geez...

It's so rare to see a thread where closed-minded, pea-brained, ignorant, foaming-at-the-mouth religious bigotry is called what it is.

I'm so proud of you guys! Proud to call myself a doper. <sniff, sniff>


Acco40, musicguy: it's clearly time you deeply examined your own prejudices and the blinders with which they have burdened you.

Perhaps when you aren't so quick to label others you won't be so easily labeled yourself.

[Munch]

Originally posted by musicguy
I've been called every name in the book, some of it justified.

I bet two of those names were "moron" and "ignoramus".

[iampunha]

Originally posted by Saint Zero
It must be so wonderful to note that after bludgeoning your ex-friend with badly formed arguements, you have the wisdom and understanding to immediately lump all "Fundamentalist Christians" into the same bucket.

It goes beyond even that, SZ. Acco's thread title said nothing about Fundamentalists. He said "Hypocricy of Christianity."

Evidently all Christians are this woman he talked to.

Oh, and a big Clue to musicguy: there are quite a few Christians on this board who believe in evolution. You're currently reading a post from one of them.