ID a Skull

[chickendoc]

A coworker of mine found a skull that is about 2 1/2 inches wide and 3 to 4 inches long. It has this bony looking spur of bone that is about 1 1/2 inches long with tiny teeth and it has a groove on the inside. It seems to be pointing to the back of the throat and is attached right behind the jaw. We have no idea what this critter is. Do any of you have any ideas? Thanks for your help.

[tomndebb]

Can you run that by again? It sounds rather odd that the bony spur is attached at the back of the jaw and is pointing back down the throat (away from the skull). Also, is there only one attached to one jaw? Or are there two, one attached to each jaw? Or does it actually extend from the back of the skull (as in a spine)?

[Revtim]

Do you know anyone with a digital camera? Borrow it and put some shots up somewhere like http://www.webshots.com , which is still free last time I looked.

[Waverly]

A picture would help greatly. Also, you have really only given the size and a description of this ‘spur’. What would be really helpful is a description of the teeth and eye sockets. Is the skull intact? Do you also have the mandible? There is normally a bone that runs from the back of the palate to rear of the braincase as a sort of bridge. If the back of the skull were missing or damaged, it may appear as spur with a single attachment.

[Ike Witt]

Pictures are needed for sure. Not just one, but several from different angles. Eyes, teeth and the underside will all be helpful. Also, you should include something for scale, place the skull next to a ruler, or failing that, a $1 bill works.

[Arnold Winkelried]

In what part of the world did you find this school? If it wasn't in Africa then we can rule out elephant.

Could it be a hyrax? Does the skull look like this ?

[tomndebb]

Just based on size and a location in Texas, it could be an armadillo or a(n o)possum.

[Colibri]

Heck, from the description it could be a fish.

We need either a much more detailed description or a photo.

[chickendoc]

Hey guys:

I just looked at the skull again and its in pretty bad shape. The spur does definitely have teeth on it and it is attached at the base of the skull close to the hinge joint of the jaw. This thing is straight like a toothpick (with serrated teeth). The spur is pointing dorsally. I looked at the mandible and it is smooth with no teeth. The skull looks kinda flat. I think that it may be a rattle snake. If it was it must have been a big one. I'm not sure about the eye sockets as the skull is chewed up, but they appear to be on the top of the skull. I really wouldn't have been that intrigued with the thing if it hadn't had had that spur with teeth pointing down the throat. I'll try and locate a digital camera and post a photo. Thanks for your help. I'm sorry that I couldn't be more descriptive.

[chickendoc]

No, its not a Hyax. I didn't find any teeth other than those on the spur. The majority of the maxillary portion of the skull seems to be missing, but we have a mandible and it is smooth. The skull was found in a backyard in central Texas. Thanks for you help.

[nineiron]

I believe it's poor Yorick.
I knew him, Horatio.

[Waverly]

I believe any snake skull will have a characteristic split lower jaw, if you have the mandible and it is in one piece, it is likely not a snake. Besides, given your dimensions, only a constrictor would have a skull quite that size.

[chickendoc]

I just noticed something else. Where the two halves of the mandible meet; the fissure connects like overlapping fingers. While, the mandible is in two halves I think that its pretty much one piece. I kinda looks like a zig-zag seam looking at it from the top. The joint where the mandible meets the skull comes to several sharp points. Versus a mammal where the mandible meets as a ball and socket joint. The sharp points aren't due to breakage. Rattlesnakes do get pretty big in Texas, but you're probably right. I don't think they get this big. I hope anyway. Ha! I'll try to take a picture or two, but there really isn't much left of this skull. There isn't a whole lot to see. Thanks

[chickendoc]

I have pictures published at http://community.webshots.com/user/farnell101. I hope that these help. Thanks.

[cher3]

That almost looks like some sort of fish to me.

[Darwin's Finch]

I'm still looking, but I can tell you that ain't no snake skull....

[Colibri]

It's definitely a fish of some sort. I'm trying to get a better look but the page is loading slow for me.

[Duck Duck Goose]

Me, too. That lower jaw says "Hi, I'm designed to wolf something down whole, like a frog", so I'd say largemouth bass or catfish. Where did your friend find it?

[Colibri]

The "spur" with the teeth on it is a spine from one of the fins. The supposed lower jaw I think could be a pectoral girdle.

[Darwin's Finch]

That's what I was thinking...in that last picture (e), it looks more like some sort of a sternal plate or something. It certainly does not appear to be a mandible.

[Terminus Est]

My WAG is that it's some sort of manta or sting ray. No luck so far in finding confirmation on the net.

[Darwin's Finch]

Originally posted by Terminus Est
My WAG is that it's some sort of manta or sting ray. No luck so far in finding confirmation on the net.

Mantas and rays are largely cartilaginous, like sharks.

[Darwin's Finch]

I mean "mantas and other rays", of course....

[Terminus Est]

Originally posted by Darwin's Finch
Mantas and rays are largely cartilaginous, like sharks.

Yes. It's kind of hard to tell on the web whether that's bone or calcified cartilage.

If that supposed mandible is actually a pectoral girdle of some sort, then it's probably not a fish.

[Colibri]

My SWAG at this point is catfish. Certainly the roof of the skull is like that of certain catfish, as is the fin spine. I'm not so sure about the pectoral girdle.

Terminus Est, that's definitely bone. And some fish have pectoral girdles.

[Terminus Est]

Oh, I agree that it's probably bone. But upon seeing the pictures, the word "manta" just popped into my head. Hence my extremely-WAG.

[chickendoc]

I made a few more pics of the "spur". The skull is really lite. I can believe the fish observation, but are those little "teeth" supposed to the the start of the fin? Negatory on the manta ray or shark hypothesis. This is central Texas we're talking about. Thank you all for your help.

[Colibri]

Fish skeleton

The elements of the skeleton you seem to have are the braincase (mostly), pectoral girdle, plus one of the pelvic spines.

[Darwin's Finch]

I agree with the catfish skull. See here for a both a ventral and dorsal view of a catfish skull.

[Darwin's Finch]

Note that my above link is for an Australian catfish; I'm not implying that's what I think this is. It's just the best on-line pic of a catfish skull I've been able to find thus far....

[Colibri]

Catfish typically have single sharp spines at the leading edge of the dorsal fin and each pectoral fin. Both Channel and Flathead Catfish occur in Texas and could be big enough to have a skull of the size you found.

[chickendoc]

Thanks for your help. It definitely looks like the catfish skull listed on the net. I was hoping it was something a little more sexier. Maybe an escaped man/dog eating anaconda for instance. Oh well, maybe next time. Thanks

[mmmiiikkkeee]

It's definately part of a fish skull; most likely a catfish. The spur would be one the the fin spines, probably a pectoral fin... though I'm not sure; the groove probly being where the fin or ray tissue was held in. You have different peices of the skeleton. The lower jaw looking bit would be the pelvic girdle. You see how it's meshed together down the center, has quite a broad flat bottom, and is very thin and fragile looking alone the front edge. The back be is pointy with some thin cartilage that looks dried and curled, which is a problem when drying fish bones. A lower jaw will usually be more robust, have a hinge, and be more of a frame with tissue covering the bottom of the mouth; this is more of a thin plate, which would be found closer to the fishes throat than head.
The only part of the head you have is the neurocranium; the part that houses the brain and top strip down the "forehead and nose". The two tabs near the front would be the mesethmoid, the wings coming down and out the back the sphenotics, and I can sort of make out the basioccipitals and parasphenoids at the back too. These bones are all fused together on this part of the skull, while the superficial face bones like the maxilla, dentary, opercular and orbital bones all come apart easily once decomposition starts being only held together with cartilage.
There is I think the first vertebrae still stuck on the back, which is common too (I have prepared fish skulls for university). The skull being found in a backyard would explain why it was in peices, and only those more solid/substancial peices being left - no teeth found 'cause those bones carrying them got scattered somewhere else... not that catfish teeth would be much to look at.

[chickendoc]

Thank you all for your help. Lots of good info.

[Colibri]

Originally posted by mmmiiikkkeee
The lower jaw looking bit would be the pelvic girdle.

Good post, mmmiiikkkeee, but one nitpick: It's a pectoral girdle, not a pelvic. In catfish in particular the pectoral would be associated with the head. I don't think catfish have such a robust pelvic girdle, and anyway their pelvic fins are well behind the head.

[mmmiiikkkeee]

Ahh yes... we don't have channel catfish up here so I've never sliced one open - and catfish overall come in so many different shapes. Some of the more advanced fish have the pectorals up more on the sides of the body, while the pelvic fins are pushed right up almost under their heads; that is where you find really robust pelvic girdles (cottids are a good example).