You can find a short description and drawing here It’s called a grenade sump rather than a grenade pit.
I don’t dispute that it happens, and maybe even fairly often. There are probably even guys who did it that weren’t even recognized as having done it. I am simply skeptical that there is training for it. At least anything beyond some kind of barracks bonding conversational things.
Joe: I’d throw myself on a grenade for you guys.
Guys: Right back at you, Joe.
I realize I’m strying too far into IMHO territory, but if anyone can find a cite about training to jump on grenades, I’d like to see it. I have certainly been wrong before, and that is an indisputable fact.
I am not and have never been a soldier, but I don’t think this is how grenades (at least WWII style ones) work.
Pulling the pin does squat for starting the fuse; all the pin does is keep the spoon from flying off. As long as your hand is wrapped around the spoon you could hold an unpinned grenade forever. However, once the spoon goes – and that only happens as you pitch the grenade – that’s when the race is on.
I was a grunt in the Army and believe it or not, subjects about throwing oneself on a grenade (among other strange and bizzare topics) makes the BS circuit in a unit-especially amonst the younger enlisted, ie: the ones who still think of the glory of combat. It was generally recognized amonst us that the most sure-fired way to get a MoH or DSC was to drop on a grenade. After a quick tour through the 1st Cav museum and seeing all of the MoH recipients it became clear to us that the only guys who survived jumping on a grenade was the one who threw his flak vest or helmet on it first.
That being said, no service instructs you to jump on a grenade. The proper way to react to a grenade is to hit the dirt, with your feet towards the grenade if possible, and pull your arms and hands under your body. The grenade blast will go up and out, thus you should only take a few, hopefully, minor schrapnel wounds.
Cooking grenades. US grenades generally have a 4 second fuse. If you are close to the enemy and there is a chance of the enemy throwing the grenade back AND you have the time, you are taught to release the arming lever (spoon) and count off 2 seconds before throwing. Otherwise, you arm the damn thing and throw it.
Ironic post
Hmmm … I’ve gotta believe the shielding properties of ballistic body armor (flak jackets) wouldn’t even come close to saving lives, in your scenario and in most cases.
While it might happen in the “luckiest” of cases, as a rule, I doubt it. Hand grenades have tremendous explosive power and propel shards of hardened steel at tremendous velocity. We’re not talking about stopping one round from a snub-nosed .38 or from a burst of semiautomatic gunfire in military settings. And when you consider that the ground/soil might even “shape” or concentrate the explosive charge outward–toward our hero in question–I think his survival in optimal conditions would be nil.
That should have been, “…vest and helmet on it first.”
There were 26 1st Cav MoH recipients in Vietnam, 6 of those were awarded specifically for jumping on a grenade to save their comrades. An additional 3 were awarded for shielding their comrades from sapper charges or mines. Another soldier had a grenade on his belt armed by an enemy round and couldn’t get it out of the pouch, so he charged the enemy instead of having the grenade detonate in his fighting position with his squad mates.
Of the 6 soldiers who dived on a grenade only one survived, SPC John P. Baca, and he was the only one to place his helmet on the grenade first. This portion of his citation says it best:
They may be trained to jump on the grenade as a last chance, but I doubt that they’re trained to jump unless they have exhausted all other options. I never served, but one of the primary rules in all of my first aid and water rescue classes was to take an incremental approach to maintain my personal safety (i.e., better one person die than two.)
FWIW, the closest thing to this that I’ve heard* to was a guy who tried to cook off a grenade during training. The instructor broke the guy’s jaw, picked up the grenade and threw it downrange before it went off.
*[sub]From a guy that I *doubt * would BS about it.[/sub]
A couple minor points:
- The blast effect from grenades is not as powerful as you seem to think. They cause casualties primarily from the fragments of metal thrown off by the explosion. The old fashioned “pineapple” grenade had its case formed that way because the designers thought it would cause more efficient fragmentation.
- The older “flak vests” were designed to protect the soldier from metal fragments (aka (incorrectly) shrapnel) and were neither intended nor exoected to protect the soldier from small arms fire. The newer ballistic armor that is based on kevlar and similar products is capable of protecting the soldier from small arms fire, especially when augmented with lexan/metal/ceramic trauma plates.
- Shell and grenade fragments are not nearly as penetrative as even a 9mm pistol round. They work more on a “shotgun” type of effect. That is the soldier, if he is within the shell/grenades effective radius gets hit with numerous fragments. The farther away he is from “ground zero” the fewer fragments strike him and the more slowly those fragments will be moving. Fragments are not nearly as ballistically efficient as a bullet and don’t retain velocity well.
One of my employees was a medic in Vietnam. I just asked him point-blank - “Did you received instructions to jump on a live grenade should one get lobbed at you?”
His answer: “Are you fucking nuts? Hell, no. We were instructed to hit the dirt and pray that we lived.”
Military folks are not trained to jump on grenades.
The love for one another that can only be brought about by shared combat trauma and survival may make normal people put the survival of their buddies above self-preservation at certain times. Fatalistic ideals may play into their decisions. I’m sure each case varies.
More ex-military chiming in (CDN).
In grenade training, I was taught that if I let go of the spoon in any fashion other than in the act of throwing the damn thing away from me, I would be removed from the range, and disciplinary action would be taken. ‘Cooking’ a grenade is not done. These things are not precision instruments.
Similarly, we were never taught to throw ourselves on a grenade. Should one drop in the pit from which we threw it, we were to remove ourselves from the pit posthaste. If we were in combat and a grenade happened to pop in on our position, Stop, Drop and Cover, baby.
I’m aware that several situations have arisen whereupon some soldiers have felt it necessary to sacrifice themselves for buddy. I do not dispute that, nor do I belittle it. It is one of the most selfless acts I could imagine someone taking. But for the most part, we were generally encouraged to remember that in wartime, the best way to win is to make sure you take the enemy out, not yourself.
what is the difference between covering a grenade with a helmet and your body versus just the helmet itself? wouldn’t the helmet be enough to take care of the shrapnel?
I’d guess that the helmet would just become more shrapnel, but maybe they’re tougher than I imagine.
I asked a coworker who just got out of the Army about this today and he said that military personnel are trained to throw themselves away from the grenade (with their helmet facing towards the blast, because if you put your feet towards it, and your chin straps on, the shockwave could screw pull your head off), but that if you see a grenade hit the ground directly in front of you, you literally only have about a second to do something before it goes off. He said that in such a situation, “your best bet is to hope some dumbass throws himself on the grenade.”
I’m certainly not going to dispute his word on the matter (he went into more detail about it, but I don’t have time to type everything he said), and I got to thinking about what could reasonably be thought to go through a person’s mind when a grenade plunks down in front of them. It’s highly likely that if you’re within inches of the thing, it doesn’t matter if you’re prone or not, you’re going to die, quite possibly a slow, agonizing death, whereas if you throw yourself ontop of the grenade, you’ll die almost instantly. Seems to me that the second choice is the lesser of two evils.
IIRC, in one episode of Band of Brothers (haven’t yet read the book), one of the members of Easy Company fell on a live grenade and lived.
Anyone who’s ever tossed a grenade can tell you–they have a pop to 'em that makes an M-80 sound like bubble gum. Your chest & innards rattle more viciously than they do at any rock concert. And if you’re not familiar with explosives, they are just terrifying little things. I never did get used to them. Drill Instructor at the grenade range was just about the hardest-assed, most serious mo-fo I ever ran into at Basic. Evidently he didn’t care much for the things either–and they are as nasty as they are loud. Basically, if you didn’t do the grenade toss just right, you got the idea hed jump on the grenade alright–and use YOU as the cushion.
I guess my point is, I find it hard to believe that there are too many people who could regard a cooking grenade at their feet and maintain any sense of decorum. i would expect reactions to occur pretty much randomly between freeze, freeze & drop the chalupa, jump away from the grenade, jump on the grenade, grab a helmet-cover the grenade & hop on top…just whatever occurs to the person. One thing you’ll *never *hear of: two guys smacking their heads together in an attempt to cover the same grenade.
It’s the “broke jaw” part that would set off my BS alarm.
Peace,
mangeorge
December, 1961, Ft Carson CO. , US Army Basic Training. Hand Grenade day.
Yak, Yak, Yak…
Then to the range.
Walk in or a slight down step into a chest high pit ( more or less open on the back side ) with a narrow trench ( 6-8” ) about 4 feet deep across the front.
Side stabilized with wood boards.
We were handed one old W.W.II style pineapple grenade and would throw at tires out in front of us. Then the second W.W.II style and then one slick new style grenade that was supposed to have segmented wire wrapped inside and was better and more powerful.
That one we had to pull the pin and hold for about 14 years
( maybe 15 seconds but I really felt it was in the years category ) before we were allowed to let the lever come off and had to say the word, “ONE” before throwing it. ( they did not trust the older ones to even count to “ONE” with )
We all managed to do that except one guy who got so nervous that while holding it with the pin out, dropped it. I was standing behind that pit at a distance and saw the instructor with one hand start sweeping the GI backwards, with one foot kick the grenade into the pit and himself fall away with the young soldier. The thing went off just like it was supposed to and no one was hurt as the blast went up and other than the fear and the concussion, nothing was done to anyone.
Well, the soldiers ass was hurting a bit later after the Instructor got through with him but he really did not land on him as hard as you might think because the value of the lesson to the whole platoon was beyond measure.