What about the number of Prince Hall Masons?
Catholic, certainly, as the Roman Catholic Church forbids its members from joining the Masons, has since the 18th century, and created the Knights of Columbus so that Catholic men could do that stuff, too.
I live in a rural area, and while there have been catholics from the beginning, the K of C was only started here a few years ago. At that time I stopped going to church. I had been sitting in the same pew for 20+ years, and suddenly it was reserved for the KC guys. I have nothing against the guys who are my friends, but I resented the priest playing this game. He was trying to pump up membership in KC. Several of us stopped going, or switched churches, including 2 ushers.
The Masons of Ireland have their own grand lodge. So Maybe the Vatican isn’t always able to tell catholics how to live?
That goes without saying. Many modern Catholics don’t always obey the ban on artificial means of birth control either. As you observed, your lodge has Catholics in it. But officially, it’s prohibited, which probably does cause some Catholics not to join:
At least it’s not grounds for excommunication any more.
That’s the exact kind of flowy, ambiguous answer I don’t want, but always seem to get. What I want to know is more of the nitty-gritty.
Still disappointed that my question about whether the Masons learned about, y’know, actual stone working and geometry was ignored in that thread. I hoped there was still some vestigial kernel of the original trades organization. Some skill that was passed along.
With so nebulous of a mission statement of “making men better, sometimes charity” I’m not surprised that membership has been declining since the mid 60’s along with the idea of a social clubs in general.
I’m not quite sure of the meaning of this response, but I think it indicates that my statement was sharp, and it was worthy of a :smack: from me. (There should be an Internet rule that if something has the slightest chance of being read as snark, it will.)
I disagree (if The dread meant that), but even if he didn’t, he does point out where I should have been clearer. I wasn’t limiting Masons’ “intellectual force” in the context of this thread, but relative to that expended in other social settings by the people mentioned in my cite, and, as well, I believe, for lesser-known personages, ie, 99.99% of all of us. A lot of the best and brightest have been and are members of Masonic lodges which by design is not the setting nor sets the bar for scientific, political, economic, or musical talent to be seen, as I wrote, as “a force” with the Freemason imprimatur.
The Wiki on Mozart and the Masons (Mozart and Freemasonry - Wikipedia) seems to offer a good picture of how a particular Masonic lodge saw itself. A lodge which, it may be noted, had as its member the noted Catholics Mozart and Haydn.
Leo: You seem to know a bit about the Masons. What are the various levels of Masonic expertise called?
e.g. in karate they have “belts” ranging from “green belt” up through “black belt”. What do Masons call their corresponding concept?
Perhaps then you’ll understand The dread simoom’s wry reaction to your turn of phrase.
These statements are in contradiction with one another. You must be aware that many religions lack any concept that maps neatly with “a Supreme Architect/God-figure.” The fact that you claim not to care about religion and to be open to all religions while insisting on a particular, narrow form of belief betrays a vile, naive chauvinism, which is not excused by the existence of the occasional Buddhist or Pagan willing to recast their beliefs in your terms for the sake of conformity.
And as someone who likes social gatherings, group activities, hokey wisdom and shopworn rituals, but who happens to be an atheist, I find the implication that I am either incapable of being a good man or of being made better to be personally offensive.
Agreed.
But we are dealing with an organization whose formative tenets were laid down during the Dark Ages. So I cut them some slack for not yet having thrown off all their primitiveness.
Which is not to say that I’d want to be a member.
There was certainly an epic fail in the case of my brother-in-law. He’s a lifelong Mason, started out as an asshole, and has, in the course of his life (now in his late 70s), become a colossal asshole. Wife abuser: check. Child abuser: check. Racist fuckwad: double check. I’m sure this is outside the norm, as I know that they do some good things, but cripes, what a prick he is.
In the US, Shriners are allowed to drink at their functions. I do know they support some fine hospitals for children.
(My grandmother was a member of Eastern Star–my grandfather had been a Mason. I doubt she was into anything very occult.)
I know a fair amount about Mozart. 
Otherwise, nothing, except they use a caliper on a big monument on the road from DC to VA.
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Search me.
I still don’t any more, based on your meta level look at our little statement/answer/reply, where I just thought I might have been read as making a crack in general at Masons, which I wasn’t.
However, Chefguy’s BIL excepted, for one.
Aaah, sorry. It sounded like to me you knew at least a bit or had researched them.
Masons call their various ranks “degrees”. e.g. “Bob’s a 4th degree Mason.”
So The dread simoom was making a pun (or asserting you’d made a pun) with your “… the Masons at one time were socially and intellectually (to a degree) rather a potent …”
Like most jokes, all the punch falls out when it has to be explained.
To expand on this a bit, the Lodge has only three degrees: Entered Apprentice (1st Degree); Fellowcraft (2nd); and Master Mason (3rd). Additional degrees do exist but as a function of “appendant” organizations, such as the York Rite and The Scottish Rite. In the basic Masonic Lodge, however, there are but three degrees.
I most definitely did NOT see what I did there…
It was/is a good one, however.
ETA: I now see LSLGuy was trying to hint for me to get the joke (
e.g. in karate they have “belts” ranging from “green belt” up through “black belt”. What do Masons call their corresponding concept?").
Didn’t get that either. Horse, water, drink.