John Kerry's War Record

pulykamell · February 19, 2004, 11:07pm

Sorry for making the question so broad, but an email containing the following questions about John Kerry’s war record found itself in my Inbox the other day, and I’m having a difficult time proving or disproving its contents. Anybody wanna have a go at some of the points? Is this just complete partisan BS, or is there a kernel of truth in here.

Chefguy · February 19, 2004, 11:16pm

Since the article provides not a shred of proof and a whole boatload of bullcrap and seems to be populated with people who just can’t get over 1968, it would seem to relegate this thread to IMHO. How can anyone respond to innuendo?

Reeder · February 20, 2004, 12:01am

Just another right wing hack.

http://www.ninamay.com/

wolf_meister · February 20, 2004, 12:09am

I realize this reply does not belong in GQ but heck I can’t resist defending someone who REALLY served in a REAL overseas war.

The fact is John Kerry was on active duty in Vietnam during the Vietnam War.
What was the right-wing “darling” George “Dubya” Bush doing in Texas ???
I don’t even want to quibble about if he served his full Nat’l Guard duty or not. The fact is he knew joining the Guard (at that point in time) almost assured you of avoiding Vietnam. Also, how did he avoid that long waiting list ahead of him and manage to get into the Guard in the first place?

Chefguy · February 20, 2004, 12:14am

When I clicked on your link, my browser crashed! She must have some serious juju.

Beagle · February 20, 2004, 1:08am

Generally speaking, political types in the know are afraid of Edwards. Kerry will self-destruct. There are a half dozen Kerry scandals in waiting – for the media to tire of the National Guard “issue.” The Republicans are just keeping their powder dry and lurking until they can see the whites of his eyes.

cmkeller · February 20, 2004, 1:33am

wolf_meister:

Actually, this week’s Newsweek says that’s not true:

It honestly seems like he wasn’t trying to avoid Vietnam per se, but he wanted to go as a flyer like his father, and the Air National Guard seemed the best track to that. I’m not saying it was necessarily right of him to do, but from all indications, it doesn’t seem he was being cowardly or shirking.

Family connections - no one seems to be denying that.

mangeorge · February 20, 2004, 1:33am

I think the conservatives (the ones I know) are very dissapointed that Dean dropped out, and are scared shitless that Bush will probably have to face Kerry (and possibly Edwards) in Novenber.
If there was anything of importance, including this, they would be riding it for all it was worth. pulykamell’s link is The Media.
Peace,
mangeorge

ShibbOleth · February 20, 2004, 1:40am

I thought this might be addressing some glurge I got recently. It’s different and frankly much more mean spirited. Anyone want to take a swipe at this (nothing in Snopes on it yet)?

Subject: Not a Patriot

White House wannabe Sen. John Forbes Kerry regularly mentions his Vietnam War combat experience, during which he received three Purple Hearts, the Silver Star and Bronze Star.
However, the Massachusetts Democrat doesn’t like to talk much about how he received the awards or the time after he returned home when he was rubbing shoulders with Hanoi Jane Fonda as a much-celebrated organizer for Vietnam Veterans Against the War (VVAW), one of America’s most radical pro-communist groups.
About this photograph <outbind://2/ker_vc_flg.htm>
Sen. Kerry, the “noble statesman” and “highly decorated Vietnam vet” of today, is a far cry from Kerry, the radical, hippie-like leader of Vietnam Veterans Against the War (VVAW) in the early 1970s.
Soon after Kerry, as a Navy Lieutenant (junior grade) commanding a Swift boat in Vietnam, was awarded the Silver Star, he used a loop hole in Navy regulations to leave Vietnam and his crew before completing his tour of duty.
After returing home, he quit the Navy early and changed the color of his politics to become a leader of VVAW. Kerry wasted no time organizing opposition in the United States against the efforts of his former buddies still ducking communist bullets back in Vietnam.
Kerry participated in the so-called Winter Soldier Investigation where his fellow protesters accused his fellow GIs of war crimes.
Kerry’s betrayal of American prisoners of war, his blatant disrespect for the families of our missing in action, Vietnam veterans, the military, his support for communist Vietnam and his waffling over the issue of use of force in Iraq proves he is a self promoting Chameleon Senator who cannot be relied on to protect the best interests of the United States.
Although Kerry voted to support military intervention in Iraq he is now claiming that he only approved the threat of force by the United States.
The Constitution for the United States of America declares: “The President shall be Commander-in-Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the militia of the several States when called into the actual service of the United States; he may require the opinion, in writing, of the principal officer in each of the executive departments, upon any subject relating to the duties of their respective offices, and he shall have power to grant reprieves and pardons for offenses against the United States, except in cases of impeachment.”
Read the following and decide for yourself if you trust this man to be our Commander-in-Chief.
Young John Forbes Kerry grew up well connected in the upper-class due to his Forbes and Winthrop roots.
Kerry is said to have idolized John F Kennedy, with whom he and his family socialized.
Kerry, who often alluded to having the same initials as President Kennedy, is pictured on the left sailing with President Kennedy.
John F. Kerry, on a yacht standing directly behind President John F. Kennedy.
Kerry (right) with President Kennedy (seated) 1962
Kerry graduated from Yale University in 1966.
Like John F. Kennedy (who served on a World War II patrol boat, PT 109), Kerry sought to do the same. He enlisted in the Navy and became an officer.
After training, Kerry volunteered for Vietnam. He served a relatively uneventful six months, far removed from combat, from December 1967 to June 1968, in the electrical department aboard the USS Gridley, a guided-missile frigate that supported aircraft carriers in the Gulf of Tonkin.
His ship returned to its Long Beach, Calif., port on June 6, 1968. Five months later, Kerry went back to Vietnam, securing an assignment as “swift boat” skipper.
Kerry commanded his first swift boat, No. 44, from December 1968 through January 1969. He received no medals while serving on this craft.

While in command of Swift Boat 44, Kerry and crew operated without prudence in a Free Fire Zone, carelessly firing at targets of opportunity racking up a number of enemy kills and some civilians. His body count included-- a woman, her baby, a 12 year-old boy, an elderly man and several South Vietnamese soldiers.
“It is one of those terrible things, and I’ll never forget, ever, the sight of that child,” Kerry later said about the dead baby. "But there was nothing that anybody could have done about it. It was the only instance of that happening.

Kerry said he was appalled that the Navy’s ‘‘free fire zone’’ policy in Vietnam put civilians at such high risk.
Kerry experienced his first intense combat action on Dec. 2, 1968. He was slightly wounded on his arm, earning his first Purple Heart.
In late January 1969, Kerry joined a five-man crew on swift boat No. 94 completing 18 missions over 48 days, almost all of them in the Mekong Delta.
Kerry earned his second Purple Heart after sustaining a minor shrapnel wound in his left thigh on Feb. 20, 1969.

It goes on more than that, but I thought it was getting long enough already. I’m particularly curious about the part about the woman, baby, boy and the old man as part of his “kills”.

UncleBill · February 20, 2004, 2:02am

As most things like this, there is a thread of truth, surrounded by a lot of opinion. In the action for which Kerry was awarded the Silver Star, he (and others) were in several days, if not weeks, of heavy stuff. He did chase down and shoot a wounded Vietnamese with a rocket launcher, who had run behind a hut after being hit. This was after be beached his boat, in violation of protocol. The bow of the boat was high, and pointed at the action, so the twin .50’s could not be brought to bear on this action at first, and the man was hit first with fire from a crewman on the front (pointy end) of the boat.

The Boston Globe says:

This exhausting and harrowing week was only the beginning for Kerry. On Feb. 28, 1969, Kerry’s boat received word that a swift boat was being ambushed. As Kerry raced to the scene, his boat became another target, as a Viet Cong B-40 rocket blast shattered a window. Kerry could have ordered his crew to hit the enemy and run. But the skipper had a more aggressive reaction in mind. Beach the boat, Kerry ordered, and the craft’s bow was quickly rammed upon the shoreline. Out of the bush appeared a teenager in a loin cloth, clutching a grenade launcher.

An enemy was just feet away, holding a weapon with enough firepower to blow up the boat. Kerry’s forward gunner, Belodeau, shot and clipped the Viet Cong in the leg. Then Belodeau’s gun jammed, according to other crewmates (Belodeau died in 1997). Medeiros tried to fire at the Viet Cong, but he couldn’t get a shot off.

In an interview, Kerry added a chilling detail.

“This guy could have dispatched us in a second, but for … I’ll never be able to explain, we were literally face to face, he with his B-40 rocket and us in our boat, and he didn’t pull the trigger. I would not be here today talking to you if he had,” Kerry recalled. “And Tommy clipped him, and he started going [down.] I thought it was over.”

Instead, the guerrilla got up and started running. “We’ve got to get him, make sure he doesn’t get behind the hut, and then we’re in trouble,” Kerry recalled.

So Kerry shot and killed the guerrilla. “I don’t have a second’s question about that, nor does anybody who was with me,” he said. “He was running away with a live B-40, and, I thought, poised to turn around and fire it.” Asked whether that meant Kerry shot the guerrilla in the back, Kerry said, “No, absolutely not. He was hurt, other guys were shooting from back, side, back. There is no, there is not a scintilla of question in any person’s mind who was there [that] this guy was dangerous, he was a combatant, he had an armed weapon.”

<snip>

When Kerry returned to his base, his commanding officer, George Elliott, raised an issue with Kerry: the fine line between whether the action merited a medal or a court-martial.

“When [Kerry] came back from the well-publicized action where he beached his boat in middle of ambush and chased a VC around a hootch and ended his life, when [Kerry] came back and I heard his debrief, I said, `John, I don’t know whether you should be court-martialed or given a medal, court-martialed for leaving your ship, your post,”’ Elliott recalled in an interview.

“But I ended up writing it up for a Silver Star, which is well deserved, and I have no regrets or second thoughts at all about that,” Elliott said. A Silver Star, which the Navy said is its fifth-highest medal, commends distinctive gallantry in action.

If this post looks familiar, I c&p’ed it from a post I made in a thread last week.

On preview, I see ShibbOleth’s text

He DID receive awards for actions performed during this time, but awards takle a lot of time, and are often given to the recipient months or years after the action. This may be a factually true, yet very misleading statement.

wolf_meister · February 20, 2004, 3:07am

cmkeller
I still say he was “dodging” so to speak.
If he really wanted to be a pilot in Vietnam, I’m sure joining the Air Force would have ensured him a first class ticket to Vietnam. Heck, that’s what John McCain did. (and did he learn the horrors of Vietnam).

UncleBill · February 20, 2004, 3:11am

John McCain joined the Navy, not the Air Force.

Fear_Itself · February 20, 2004, 4:53am

Bush’s National Guard application contradicts that, in that he specifically indicated he did not want to volunteer for overseas duty.

bibliophage · February 20, 2004, 6:14am

You’re absolutely right. Your reply did not belong in GQ. If you value your posting privileges you will keep political debate out of this forum. This thread is for verifiable facts about John Kerry, not your opinions about George Bush.

bibliophage
moderator GQ

schplebordnik · February 20, 2004, 6:34am

More accurately, John McCain was already in the Navy for a long time before the war even started. He graduated from Annapolis in 1958.

And getting a direct pilot slot in the Air Force has always been difficult.

wolf_meister · February 20, 2004, 8:45am

Geez, where’s the “smack the head” icon been lately?
Of course John McCain was in the Navy. (smacking my head) Recently I saw a film clip in which he had to jump out of his plane when a fire occurred on the deck of an aircraft carrier.

Mr.Moto · February 20, 2004, 2:35pm

I have it on good authority that John Kerry has an excellent “War” record.

It’s called “Spill the Wine” and features Eric Burdon on lead vocals.

leenmi · February 20, 2004, 4:06pm

Nice spin. No volunteering for overseas duty meant he was not volunteering to be based overseas. It doesn’t cover deployments.

Military members fill out “dream sheets” that list where they would prefer to be assigned. You can list specific installations, regions or countries. The “dream sheet” is a way of asking the military to consider your preference when you come up for assignment. It’s not a guarantee and you frequently don’t get your requests.

But there is a difference between being assigned to a base and being deployed to an excersice, engagement or temporary duty.

So, Bush was saying he would prefer not to be assigned overseas for his permanent station.

The dream sheet preferences do not keep you out of war, deployments or temporary duty. And when military members fill in the dream sheets, they know this.

YPOD · February 20, 2004, 5:17pm

I don’t have the cite, but I remember reading how Bush’s family connections (his father) did help him. It was not because he was a Congressman, but because Bush Sr. was a naval aviator - in fact, I think at one time Bush Sr may have been the youngest aviator (pilot) in the Navy in World War II. I don’t know if it helped get him into the National Guard, but according to the source, it made it a done deal for the aviation program.

plnnr · February 20, 2004, 6:04pm

Here’s a Washington Post article concerning not only Bush’s enlistment in the Guard, but other aspects of his life, as well. It is from a series the Post produced during the 2000 election, and there’s a link to a series of articles about Al Gore as well. I suspect that a similar series may be written regarding Kerry.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/campaigns/wh2000/stories/bush072899.htm

All of the men have similar experiences - sons of prominent families faced with the possibility of particpation in a war that was probably the defining event of their generation.