#1  
Old 08-07-2005, 11:37 AM
wissdok wissdok is offline
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Some Facts of Lucid Dreaming

Link to column: How do you have lucid dreams?

I have been lucid dreaming for 25 years now. For those interested because it sounds fun or a blessing to get rid of nightmares.....let me tell you it will become a curse!!!! But a few quick facts.

To start lucid dreaming one only needs to remind themselves that they will be dreaming tonight. So when you lay down in bed, just keep reminding yourself that a dream in coming. Stay focused. One you get to sleep and a dream starts something normal happens that is out of place......you see someone who is dead, you can fly, Frankenstein's monster is after you, etc. If you have remembered that you would be dreaming these type odd events will allow you to realize you are in a dream. Once you realize you are dreaming you are then free to change any and all things around you.
This ability to change a dream is its own curse. When i first started it was so much fun. I could always draw a gun from by pocket when something was chasing me. If I was in a yard of snakes I would grow wings and fly away. Soon I got the girl every night. I was Luke Skywalker one night, Captain Kirk the next. I single handedly stormed the beaches of Normandy and killed Hitler. In 25 years I have done everything I could imagine.
But lost in my dreams was anything that the dreams would have shown me. If dreams have some purpose, I haven't benefited from it in a quarter century. When I started I never got a goodnight's sleep because I spent the whole night "rewriting" my dreams. The dream would try to "right" itself to fix what i had changed, so I had to "rewrite" more. Over the years the "dreams" have given up fighting back so now I have ultimate power...which brings ultimate boredom. I have tried for years to restrain from changing anything, but alas I can't stop.
So now 25 years later, I wish I could have just one normal dream. I would love a good nightmare. How great it would be to be surprised in a unscripped dream.

So to the Teeming Millions I ask....Would you really want to live in an Amusement Park, or watch only your favor television show for the rest of your life? I would think either would get boring. And that is the same my friends, if you can control your dreams. You won't live happily ever after.

Last edited by C K Dexter Haven; 08-07-2005 at 06:53 PM. Reason: Added link to column -- CKDH
  #2  
Old 08-07-2005, 02:51 PM
Washoe Washoe is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wissdok
Would you really want to live in an Amusement Park, or watch only your favor television show for the rest of your life?
Well, since the holodeck isn’t slated to be invented for another four hundred years or so, I’d really like to give it a shot. I’ll let you know if I run into any problems, but the only ones that I can foresee right now would be financial. If indeed I am successful in achieving a threesome with Sandra Bullock and Ashley Judd, I’m going to have a hell of a time ever getting my ass out of bed.
  #3  
Old 08-07-2005, 05:03 PM
Mathochist Mathochist is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wissdok
This ability to change a dream is its own curse.

25 years later, I wish I could have just one normal dream.
Not to say you're wrong or anything (I'm one of those who isn't even sure he does dream every night, for all I remember), but this is the first complaint I've ever heard in dozens or hundreds of accounts. Of course, by its very nature we can't prove whether or not you're making this up, but if you aren't why hasn't anyone else complained about the same effect?

Or maybe you're just not very good even after 25 years and everyone else can turn it off when they don't want to use it.
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Old 08-07-2005, 06:18 PM
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Hm. Maybe there's a market for repentant lucid dreamers.

Illucid dreaming?
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Old 08-07-2005, 06:55 PM
C K Dexter Haven C K Dexter Haven is offline
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Welcome to the Straight Dope Message Boards, wissdok, we're glad to have you with us.

When you start a thread, it's helpful to other readers if you provide a link to the column. Yes, sure, it's on the front page today, but in a few days it will vanish into the murky past. So, to help keep us all more or less together and to save searching time, we prefer to have a link to the column in the first post of the thread.

No big deal, you'll know for next time. I've edited the link into your post (Moderator's privileges).

And, as I say, welcome!
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Old 08-07-2005, 07:20 PM
Leviosaurus Leviosaurus is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathochist
Not to say you're wrong or anything (I'm one of those who isn't even sure he does dream every night, for all I remember), but this is the first complaint I've ever heard in dozens or hundreds of accounts. Of course, by its very nature we can't prove whether or not you're making this up, but if you aren't why hasn't anyone else complained about the same effect?
Well, it is similar to what I mentioned in my post on the subject. Lucid dreaming, for me, became too much work and not enough self introspection. I never took it to the extreme wissdok did, but I can understand where he's coming from.
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Old 08-07-2005, 11:05 PM
Askance Askance is offline
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That was the first thing I thought of when I'd finished reading the article - how can you sure LD is not bad for you? As Wissdok says, that means you're not having your natural dreams, which can't be good for you if dreaming has a purpose.
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Old 08-08-2005, 12:25 AM
souroranges souroranges is offline
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Originally Posted by Washoe
If indeed I am successful in achieving a threesome with Sandra Bullock and Ashley Judd, I’m going to have a hell of a time ever getting my ass out of bed.
I think you're confused, Washoe... That's not a lucid dream; that's a liquid dream.
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Old 08-08-2005, 01:45 AM
wissdok wissdok is offline
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To start, I'm sorry I didn't link the original column. I will do better next time.


Mathochist
Quote:
Or maybe you're just not very good even after 25 years and everyone else can turn it off when they don't want to use it.

I can't really tell how good I am at Lucid Dreaming because I don't know a standard to measure it by. I can tell you that I have limitations but they are not in control but acceptablity. I have the power to create or change anything in a dream but I must not do too much at one time or it will throw me out of the dream. If I ever had a need for a gun (for example) I could create one in my pocket, but not already in my hand. I can go anywhere by opening a door or create whatever I want in the very next room. As that was my original goal I don't see how anyone can have much more. But as I originally posted, it may have been fun the first couple of years but now it has lost its luster.

I have had thousand of dreams seen I first started controlling them. As each night went by I learned to change more and more. It may have started as "lets see what I can do," but in time it becomes "let me change it to make in more interesting." As the saying goes, "Absolute power corrupts Absolutely." In Leviosarus posts he stated it is a lot of work to lucid dream. It is not just to "write" your dreams but to fight your subconscious who wants "rewrite". I haven't talked deeply on this subject with others but over the years my subconscious doesn't put up as much of a fight as it once did.

As for "no" other complaints, I think you have not been looking Mathochist. Lucid Dreaming has been explained as a way to fight nightmares, address trauma, or to just have fun. The problems of playing with your dreams has been discussed all along, but by individuals not publishers or universities. When I was in college a psychology class textbook had a whole chapter on the benefits of lucid dreaming. When I gave my same comments to my Professor that I made here, I found that while he pushed the idea made in the book, neither he nor the three other Pyschology Professors had ever had a Lucid Dream.

And to point out that there are false experts on the subject who don't know enough to talk, is the ordeal they tell people to do to start Lucid Dreaming.
The way I started was the way everyone I have ever meet started..... reminding themselves that they will be dreaming. I can promise you that if you remind yourselve each night before you go to sleep that a dream is coming, you will have a lucid dream. There are no big processes you must follow, no need in any fancy books. If these people are so knowledgeable, then why do they teach the hard way?

To each, his own. But I will say once more, when your night dreams become just another daydream....what good are they?
  #10  
Old 08-08-2005, 10:22 AM
Piku Piku is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wissdok
Link to column: How do you have lucid dreams?

I have been lucid dreaming for 25 years now. For those interested because it sounds fun or a blessing to get rid of nightmares.....let me tell you it will become a curse!!!! But a few quick facts.

To start lucid dreaming one only needs to remind themselves that they will be dreaming tonight. So when you lay down in bed, just keep reminding yourself that a dream in coming. Stay focused. One you get to sleep and a dream starts something normal happens that is out of place......you see someone who is dead, you can fly, Frankenstein's monster is after you, etc. If you have remembered that you would be dreaming these type odd events will allow you to realize you are in a dream. Once you realize you are dreaming you are then free to change any and all things around you.
This ability to change a dream is its own curse. When i first started it was so much fun. I could always draw a gun from by pocket when something was chasing me. If I was in a yard of snakes I would grow wings and fly away. Soon I got the girl every night. I was Luke Skywalker one night, Captain Kirk the next. I single handedly stormed the beaches of Normandy and killed Hitler. In 25 years I have done everything I could imagine.
But lost in my dreams was anything that the dreams would have shown me. If dreams have some purpose, I haven't benefited from it in a quarter century. When I started I never got a goodnight's sleep because I spent the whole night "rewriting" my dreams. The dream would try to "right" itself to fix what i had changed, so I had to "rewrite" more. Over the years the "dreams" have given up fighting back so now I have ultimate power...which brings ultimate boredom. I have tried for years to restrain from changing anything, but alas I can't stop.
So now 25 years later, I wish I could have just one normal dream. I would love a good nightmare. How great it would be to be surprised in a unscripped dream.

So to the Teeming Millions I ask....Would you really want to live in an Amusement Park, or watch only your favor television show for the rest of your life? I would think either would get boring. And that is the same my friends, if you can control your dreams. You won't live happily ever after.
Actually, this doesn't sound like lucid dreaming to me. I believe one psychologist studying
dreams called this 'dreaming within a dream'. You can actually dream that you have
control over your dream, when in fact you don't. A truly lucid dream does not 'try to right itself''. Secondly, lucid dreams do not inhibit sleep. As far as losing your ability to learn
from your dreams by trying to understand what you dream, no one person or group has yet
*proven* that dreams are a result of intillegent process, and not just a side effect of brain
patterns. Telling people to avoid lucid dreams is like telling a dog not to lick it's ass.
The dog is going to lick it's ass, it's going to enjoy it, and it's probably going to do it again.
  #11  
Old 08-08-2005, 10:25 AM
Piku Piku is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wissdok
To start, I'm sorry I didn't link the original column. I will do better next time.


Mathochist
Quote:
Or maybe you're just not very good even after 25 years and everyone else can turn it off when they don't want to use it.

I can't really tell how good I am at Lucid Dreaming because I don't know a standard to measure it by. I can tell you that I have limitations but they are not in control but acceptablity. I have the power to create or change anything in a dream but I must not do too much at one time or it will throw me out of the dream. If I ever had a need for a gun (for example) I could create one in my pocket, but not already in my hand. I can go anywhere by opening a door or create whatever I want in the very next room. As that was my original goal I don't see how anyone can have much more. But as I originally posted, it may have been fun the first couple of years but now it has lost its luster.

I have had thousand of dreams seen I first started controlling them. As each night went by I learned to change more and more. It may have started as "lets see what I can do," but in time it becomes "let me change it to make in more interesting." As the saying goes, "Absolute power corrupts Absolutely." In Leviosarus posts he stated it is a lot of work to lucid dream. It is not just to "write" your dreams but to fight your subconscious who wants "rewrite". I haven't talked deeply on this subject with others but over the years my subconscious doesn't put up as much of a fight as it once did.

As for "no" other complaints, I think you have not been looking Mathochist. Lucid Dreaming has been explained as a way to fight nightmares, address trauma, or to just have fun. The problems of playing with your dreams has been discussed all along, but by individuals not publishers or universities. When I was in college a psychology class textbook had a whole chapter on the benefits of lucid dreaming. When I gave my same comments to my Professor that I made here, I found that while he pushed the idea made in the book, neither he nor the three other Pyschology Professors had ever had a Lucid Dream.

And to point out that there are false experts on the subject who don't know enough to talk, is the ordeal they tell people to do to start Lucid Dreaming.
The way I started was the way everyone I have ever meet started..... reminding themselves that they will be dreaming. I can promise you that if you remind yourselve each night before you go to sleep that a dream is coming, you will have a lucid dream. There are no big processes you must follow, no need in any fancy books. If these people are so knowledgeable, then why do they teach the hard way?

To each, his own. But I will say once more, when your night dreams become just another daydream....what good are they?

Actually, the fact that one can just 'remind oneself that they are going to dream tonight'
will not produce lucid dreams in most. As I said in my previous reply, I doubt very highly
that you are producing a true lucid dreaming state from how you describe your dreams.
Such a small percentage of the population will ever have a truely lucid dream, and only
the tinyest amounts have them regularly. I cannot remember the exact amounts quoted in
one of the books I read, however, needless to say, it was less than 5% on both accounts.
With that in mind, telling people that they simply must remember to lucid dream tonight,
won't do jack
  #12  
Old 08-08-2005, 11:32 AM
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Raza Raza is offline
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I have had lucid dreams but never knew they had a fancy name!

I was inspired by the movie Dreamscape (1984) and though an adult at the time (still am, despite my wife's comments) I did occasionally have discomforting dreams. While the movie was largely fantasy, it did inspire me to try to control my dreams...to remind myself that *I* was in charge of the dream.

Subsequently I was able to control, at least to a satisfactory degree, dreams that I had. I generally only tried to intervene when the dream was distressing, but I could also add some input into enjoyable dreams.

As the article briefly mentioned, I too assumed that my ability to manipulate the dreams was due to being "on the edge" of unconciousness and semi-conciousness. After all, there have been numerous times were I have awaken after a dream, then returned to sleep and re-entered the dream, and this seemed none too different.

And while I've not discussed this heavily with others, I would certainly agree that not everyone would be able to have lucid dreams, or at least it would take a lot of therapy. Though I'm not sure it requires a belief in mysticism, I do think you need a creative mind.
  #13  
Old 08-08-2005, 11:35 AM
Mathochist Mathochist is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wissdok
Mathochist
Quote:
Or maybe you're just not very good even after 25 years and everyone else can turn it off when they don't want to use it.
Here's another fact about SDMB, wissdok: many of us have a sense of humor that makes the Sahara look like a rain forest.

Quote:
As for "no" other complaints, I think you have not been looking Mathochist.
I've seen quite a few anecdotes over the years, but no, I haven't been particularly looking. However, what you go on to say does not support your point. If you mean by this quote to say that there are many other complainants, show me a citation. Show me a study collecting these negative anecdotes.
  #14  
Old 08-08-2005, 12:18 PM
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I "trained" myself to lucid dream, starting around fourth grade. I don't remember exactly how I did it, but it involved a heck of a lot of effort, balancing between breaking the "Fourth Wall" (so I can control the dream) and playing by the rules (so I don't inadvertantly wake myself up).

However, when I started getting really depressed, I started having very vivid nightmares of me dying in various painful ways. At that point I regarded this as a Very Bad Thing and tried to turn them off without much success, but nowadays I find it to be a useful psychological barometor. ("Hm, I'm having the Lead-Legged Chase Sequence* again. Am I about to miss a deadline or something?")

Particularly encouraging are dreams where I'm finally starting to fight back--and actually win on some occasions.

*Dream involving me being chased by a number of bad guys who are trying to kill/and or maim me, but I can't get away from them. My legs feel like lead, I can't use my usual dream powers of flight or invisibility very well, and it's basically much suckiness.
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Old 08-08-2005, 02:45 PM
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As an ex-cop, my recurring dream involves trying to shoot various bad guys but the trigger is incredibly difficult to pull, like it requires 100-pounds of force.

Oddly, in one dream I simply pulled my finger from my pocket and made a "kiddie-style" gun with my hand and shot the bad guy dead. Real guns don't work in my dreams, but improvised ones do.
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Old 08-08-2005, 02:50 PM
wissdok wissdok is offline
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Piku
Quote:
Actually, the fact that one can just 'remind oneself that they are going to dream tonight'
will not produce lucid dreams in most. As I said in my previous reply, I doubt very highly
that you are producing a true lucid dreaming state from how you describe your dreams.
Such a small percentage of the population will ever have a truely lucid dream, and only
the tinyest amounts have them regularly. I cannot remember the exact amounts quoted in
one of the books I read, however, needless to say, it was less than 5% on both accounts.
With that in mind, telling people that they simply must remember to lucid dream tonight,
won't do jack


I would have to beg to differ with you on this. I have never personally meet anyone that lucid dreams that had to go through some major routine to start lucid dreaming. But the difference in me and others is I NOT trying to sell Self-Help books. Nor am I some academic professor claiming this is part of a scientific process. All you need to know in Lucid Dreaming is the knowledge that you are dreaming. Once you know you are dreaming you can disbelieve the stuff around you and design the dream as you like it. The fact that you know you are in a dream allows you to lucid dream but doesn't force you to do so. So your statement of 5% I can't really argue with, because I don't know. Lucid Dreams and dreams in general are not a common conversation item that I use in day-to-day life. But having said that, I think I am more than qualified in explaining what goes on in Lucid Dreams.

I don't as you say, "dream within a dream." I am fully aware of the dream and my own limitations to avoid waking up. The stuggle that I had/have and others have is you can't design everything in a dream or you won't have time fully dream. I can't speak for others but most of my dreams are short not epic length.The more detail I add to a dream the more difficult it becomes. I have to focus all my effort. If I chose to micromanage every aspect of my dreams it would be over before I was done. What good is changing a dream if you don't get to live out the dream?
I hate to draw Hollywood into this discussion but the John Candy movie"Delirious"is very similiar to what I am talking about. Maybe others don't have as much problems as I had in the early days, but I didn't always get what I wanted. A gun in my pocket would be a derringer not a 44 magnum. A car in driveway would be a Dodge Dart not a Corvette. Over time that problem has faded, but that is a common problem with my lucid friends.

As for my friend Machochist, I didn't mean to offend you. My point is that if I am at the level I claim, do you really think I continue lucid dreaming out of desire or is it just a reflex? Its just natural now to start fixing anything that is unpleasant. As for research on "complaints" for lucid dreaming...I will try to find some, but I will say again "lucid dreaming" is the "in-thing" right now. WaldenBooks devotes whole row to "Lucid dreaming", dream analysis, and any other dream related topic. Colleges teach classes on this stuff now. Does it not sound like Repressed Memory all over again?
  #17  
Old 08-08-2005, 08:25 PM
Leviosaurus Leviosaurus is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wissdok
Once you know you are dreaming you can disbelieve the stuff around you and design the dream as you like it. The fact that you know you are in a dream allows you to lucid dream but doesn't force you to do so...

...I don't as you say, "dream within a dream." I am fully aware of the dream and my own limitations to avoid waking up. The stuggle that I had/have and others have is you can't design everything in a dream or you won't have time fully dream. I can't speak for others but most of my dreams are short not epic length.The more detail I add to a dream the more difficult it becomes. I have to focus all my effort. If I chose to micromanage every aspect of my dreams it would be over before I was done.
My experiences match exactly what wissdok is saying, including the limitations.

In one of my first lucid dreams, I was being victimized by a bully. I remember shouting at him "I'm not going to listen to you anymore because this is my dream and I can do as I damn well please, and I'm going to fly away now." And I did. He chased after me along the ground for a while, until I made a lake appear, and he got stuck on the shoreline, cursing me out. See how this experience maps directly to wissdok's:
- I realized I was dreaming
- I was immediately able to change my environment
- I didn't have full control (i.e., I couldn't delete the bully.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Piku
Actually, this doesn't sound like lucid dreaming to me. I believe one psychologist studying dreams called this 'dreaming within a dream'. You can actually dream that you have control over your dream, when in fact you don't...

...Such a small percentage of the population will ever have a truely lucid dream, and only the tinyest amounts have them regularly.
I think the real problem here is that there will never be a concrete way to define, test or measure Lucid Dreaming. It is an entirely subjective experience. For what it's worth, I disagree with the psychologist you paraphrased. What he's describing doesn't fit my experiences at all.

To your comment that lucid dreaming doesn't effect physical rest, I direct you to the first post I linked to. Yes, after lucid dreaming I would feel physically rested, but not mentally rested. I can't explain it clearly, as words fail, but it's similar to the mental state I am in after running several miles, where I still feel lots of physical energy, but I am mentally less alert. I believe there are probably people who can lucid dream all night every night and still be mentaly alert, just as there are those who can run a marathon and then do advanced calculus for the rest of the day. My guess is that those sort of people represent a very small portion of the population.

But, as I say, this is all subjective and guesswork. You're going to have to take our word for it that wissdok and I have lucid dreams.
  #18  
Old 08-09-2005, 02:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raza
And while I've not discussed this heavily with others, I would certainly agree that not everyone would be able to have lucid dreams, or at least it would take a lot of therapy. Though I'm not sure it requires a belief in mysticism, I do think you need a creative mind.
Well, I would hypothesize that basically anybody is capable of manipulating their dreams.

But this is an empirical matter.

Separately, the OP suggested that wissdok maintained an iron-grip control of his dreams, at least to me. Later elaboration suggests that this is not the case.

wissok:
---- But I will say once more, when your night dreams become just another daydream....what good are they?

1a. For me, they are not another daydream. They are an -err- night-dream: my "lucidity" comes in when I respond to them or sometimes try to set up a simple scenario.

1b. I still have complicated dreams on occasion though.

1c. ...and my memory of my dreams is pretty sketchy.

1d. Besides, if you remember that you're dreaming within your dream, couldn't you just make a decision to see what happens?

2. What good are they? They're recreation. Maybe they might help people who have chronic nightmares (PTSD?)

3. If somebody wanted to take an expensive course in Lucid dreaming though, I would advise against it. It's not that amazing. Personally, I wouldn't even call it a hobby.
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Old 08-09-2005, 02:44 PM
wissdok wissdok is offline
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In the last few days I have spent more time thinking about my dreams than I normally do. As I tried to state before "lucid Dreaming" has become a New Age Phenomenon. If you do a Google search you will find 100s of websites that sell something to start/help/explore lucid dream.It wasn't my point to question lucid dreaming but to just point out what these websites don't, it may not all be "good" stuff. My original point was there can be too much of a good thing. It was a lot more fun when there was a challenge in my dreams.After being questioned earlier I found this, which my help some people.

http://www.spiritwatch.ca/LL%208(2)%...CKE082.W50.htm

Let me explain again that once you start play with lucid dreaming you will naturally find the tendency to see how much you can get away with. As time goes on you will assume more control. The problem is what do you do when you have develop complete control? I don't think my critics realize how boring that can get. And the idea of "switching" control of isn't as easy as it seems. If you lucid dream enough you will realize you are dreaming almost as soon as they start. Once you know you are dreaming you can't help but start changing things when you encount unpleasantable things. I would relate this to flinching when someone swings at you in real life. Its a simple reflex. Another more abstract example is... Can "Superman" restrain from using his power when he sees a disaster happens? You have the power, why not us it?

A earlier writer question if I realy had ulimate power in my dreams.There are limits, but thing are only obstacles that can easily be worked around. From conversations with others I believe that this is a standard feature with all Lucid Dreamers. Generally for me it is limited only in things that would kick me out of the dream. It seems that people don't understand that no matter how much power you obtain you will have limits because it is a dream. The two major limits
(that are common)are time and avoiding things that might wake you up. The first...Time...is a precious commodity in a dream. As I stated before, I, like most people, don't have "epic-long" dreams.Controlling a dream takes time from the dream. So, more you micromanage less time you have to interact with the dream. The second...Not waking up, I believe is more tailored to each person. I personally avoid supernatural events because they often wake me up. A friend with far less experience is right the opposite, he is kicked out only when the dream slows down. Both these things are something you learn and can be easily overcome.

People also don't realize that unless you plan to control everything, your normal subconscious will design some or all of you dream.Remember more you control... less time you have to dream. As I already said...Time in a dream is a precious commodity. Your subconscious is alway designing anyway. When someone wants to be in the mountains, they just think mountains and the mind takes over. Could be the Alps or the Rockies. So when you want a sports car, you may get Jaguar or a Ford Escort Sp (or anything in between.) As you gain more experience the outcome will be normally closer to the former, but with more experience it won't matter anyway. The point I am trying to make is that this isn't a limit to allow your subconscious to design some, its just more productive. A example of working around your subconscious is a old feature I had in many dreams. I have a phobia of snakes, and lucky for me my subconscious love to throw those in. A recurring
plot in my earlier dreams was to be in a house surrounded by a yard of snakes. I could easily just "wish" them away but there is always a fear that I either didn't destroy them all or that they would reappear later. Plus that wouldn't have been much fun. Here are a couple of creative way I handle this event.
1) The easiest...I flow over them.
2) I went to a closet and got knee-high pair of boots.
3) I brought down a thick snowfall.
4) I replaced the grass with concrete.
5) I summoned a pack of wild dogs to eat the snakes.
6) I used my everyday household universal transporter to "beem" me pass the snakes.

The point here is that the subconscious "rewrite" is common and something you learn to work around. I don't consider it a "limit", just something that you learn to live with to keep the dream from bogging down. With more experience, I have to "work-around" rarely now. On the same note, the last item "transporter" I use often now. As time is very important in a dream, travel needs to be short. Also avoiding needless events and encounters is critical. I uses my transporter, my friend flies,and other may use something else.

As for avoiding waking up, I originally used supernatural events as a trigger that I was dreaming. Too much supernatural stuff would cause me to "overload" and wake me up. Because of that I learned to avoid the "superman" complex and try to keep things somewhat realistic. I believe each person is different. With more experience I now normally pickup on the drab color as a trigger for lucidity, and now start 50% of dreams lucid, so this "overload" problem is less common. This again isn't a limit because I, like most experienced lucid dreamers, find a comfort
zone for dreaming. You adjust to what you mind will allow.

The point I would like to end with is that daydreams are never as fun as true dreams. If you truly master lucid dreaming the result will be nothing more than a daydream. No emotional element, no surprise element, and no challenge element. Please believe me, when you have a "perfect" dream everynight.. what do you measure it against? I don't say lucid dreaming is a waste, just it isn't all good things. When you get to the point that lucidity is second nature, its not going to be a switch to turn off.

Some highlights/milestones of a few of my dreams:
I had a recurring nightmare as a child of an axe murder killing me. Maybe I watched to many Halloweens, Friday the 13th, The Shining...etc. I had the same dream annually for several years. After the first, I knew how the dream would play out but was helpless to do anything about it. It was having this dream in mind that encouraged me to take a friends advice and try to "produce a gun" or "try to fly." But sadly that dream never came back naturally. I later created
a dream based on the memory of that dream, but by designing it, I lost the emotional element.

I decide one night to dream of being married to my favorite ex-girlfriend. The dream started in a nice restaurant and after a short conversation the waitness brought the food. As my "wife" reached for the food I noticed she had no fingers. Her reason for having no fingers was that she believed that you should lose a finger if you commit a sin. {Religion played a part in our breakup}I don't know if it was that she had sinned 10 times or the fact that hand-holding would be uncomfortable, but I end the dream. I re-entered, at the same restaurant, similiar
conversation and then..bam... her 6 kids from a former "unknown" relationship showed up. To add to the problem, she announce that she was pregnant with a seventh.I ended the dream and re-entered once more. This time everything is going great, she is 10 times pretty than I remembered. Everything was going great, until she said that she had to meet a client for a date....aka she is a callgirl. I could have "fixed" any of these dreams but spending all my time tweaking the dreams would have taken from the pleasure I was expecting from the dream.

For fun, me and I my friends try to test the power of dreams. A friend would draw a card from a deck and that night I was suppose to guess it by revisiting the event in my dream. Each day the deck was resuffled and a new card drawn to keep the odds at 1 in 52. I was 0-10. They also hid an item in the house and I was suppose to find it by searching the house in a dream. It was found it on the third try. Because of the size of the house, I believe it was more deductive reasoning, than any act of psychic ability.

I have tried to add more color. In a mixed group of friends a few years ago we discussed dreams and color. All four girls said they dream in color, which 5 of 6 guys said that they don't. I tried later to add color but I always would get thrown out of the dreams. My current girlfriend claims technocolor and panavision, to my, at best, M*A*S*H drag coloring and tunnel vision.

While I would love to keep writing on this subject, I think I have bored the Teeming Millions enough.

Thank You,
Sweet Dreams
Wissdok
  #20  
Old 08-25-2005, 05:00 AM
yohan go yohan go is offline
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Do you mind if I write a novel based on your expirience?
  #21  
Old 08-25-2005, 12:41 PM
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CarnalK CarnalK is online now
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wissdok, I have heard of this a couple of times before. (ever hang out at the LD4all forum?) Being a more go with the flow guy I never really try to be a super magician in my LDs, just subtle pushes usually.

If you are actually looking for tips to make the dream experience surprising again why not try the reverse of LD inducing techniques. During the day practice cultivating an attitude of non-interference to your scenery and take paths that are presented to you. Do some completely form free day-dreaming.

To be a little critical:
Quote:
This ability to change a dream is its own curse. When i first started it was so much fun. I could always draw a gun from by pocket when something was chasing me. If I was in a yard of snakes I would grow wings and fly away. Soon I got the girl every night. I was Luke Skywalker one night, Captain Kirk the next. I single handedly stormed the beaches of Normandy and killed Hitler. In 25 years I have done everything I could imagine.
it doesn't sound like you've taken much initiative to keep your dreams interesting. All you seem to be doing is controlling mundane dreams. Have you lived a dream as an animal? Watch a long sequence from 3rd person? Do a meditation sitting? Don't think "amusement park" think "I control the universe"
  #22  
Old 08-25-2005, 01:15 PM
wissdok wissdok is offline
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originally posted Yohan Go
Do you mind if I write a novel based on your experience?

That would be wonderful, as I would need a ghost writer. Sorry to all... that my earilier post was way too long, full of grammar errors, and violated every rule of the English language. I am from the south, where the fact I can sometimes read, write, and type makes me a Rhodes scholar. My real excuse is that I normally write when I am on the job, and often, my idiot supervisor makes me do something called "work." When will these employers realize that all work and no play makes Jack a dull boy?

Sorry again for my poor writing style.
  #23  
Old 08-30-2005, 03:29 PM
yohan go yohan go is offline
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Thanks wissdok. I'll let you know how it turns out. I think it is interesting material for a short novel and it sure does rip through my imagination. But it won't be originaly in english as it is not my first spoken language. E-mail in profile or just bump this thread in six months or so.
  #24  
Old 08-30-2005, 05:57 PM
SlowMindThinking SlowMindThinking is offline
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I don't dream lucidly often, but I have been doing it a long time, as I mentioned in another thread. I don't know who is closer to unique, but I don't have wissdok's problems.

Perhaps it is because do not tend to have nightmares, so I haven't ever exercised so much control. I can only think of a few instances off-hand. If the nightmare was something happening to me, I either switched to the third person, so that it wasn't me in the scary situation, or took over the role of another person in the dream. If it was something happening to a loved one, I often deliberately exited the dream. (For me, this can be hard. I've even woken up unable to move.)

Perhaps it is because I don't often try to control my dreams. Pleasurable dreams are just that, pleasurable, so why change them? (If Ashleyy Judd is there, and I wanted Sandra Bullock, she'd probably be there already!) Again, I don't have many scary dreams, so I generally only take control to make my dreams more interesting, and occassionally less nonsensical. (Yeah, right, Ashley Judd and Sandra Bullock just jumped me out of the blue. Let's apply some set up here...)
  #25  
Old 08-31-2005, 09:52 AM
Foaming Cleanser Foaming Cleanser is offline
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I've had a few lucid dreams, among them finding myself speaking with my dead father, and this has flipped the lucidity switch. I know in my dream that the words spoken by him are not his but mine, so I wake up — no fun at 3 a.m.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wissdock
<snip>I noticed she had no fingers. Her reason for having no fingers was that she believed that you should lose a finger if you commit a sin.

<snip>but I end the dream. I re-entered, at the same restaurant, similiar
conversation and then..bam... her 6 kids from a former "unknown" relationship showed up.

<snip>This time everything is going great, she is 10 times pretty than I remembered. Everything was going great, until she said that she had to meet a client for a date....aka she is a callgirl.
This reads like a script to the movie The Butterfly Effect; despite all efforts, you cannot make it right. After 25 years of such failures, perhaps you have even less control than you acknowledge. Complete lucidity would prevent the magic altogether, as it did in the dreams I had of my father. This could hint as to how to diminish or end the lucid dreams, so there is hope.

It also suggests that since the lucidity is far less than perfect, you may have dreams without it. There is no way you could know. Are there no mornings when you wake up with no thought of the night's dreams?
Quote:
Originally Posted by SlowMindThinkingI've even woken up unable to move.
Do you know why that happens and how to break out of it with less effort?
  #26  
Old 09-04-2005, 08:20 PM
SlowMindThinking SlowMindThinking is offline
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No, but I've read that it is not uncommon when woken up from deep sleep.
  #27  
Old 09-06-2005, 08:39 AM
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I occasionally have what I would lucid dreams, but rarely have the sort of ultimate power a lot of people seems to associate with that term. If I'm conscious that I'm dreaming, and can control my own actions to approximately the same degree as when I'm awake, does that not count as lucid dreaming?
I enjoy these dreams a great deal because I can explore the dreamscape as much as I like and still be surprised and emotionally involved in it without having to worry about looking after every detail of it.
A mild but recent example would be a dream about dreams I had a few weeks ago. I was in a large conference room where a series of speakers were describing their dreams. One of them included my dead grandfather, which I think triggered my lucidity. I realised I was dreaming but could still sit back and listen to the speakers, knowing it was all coming from my own subconscious but not feeling the need to take control. Two friends of mine were in the audience too and I remember explaining to them that this was dream and told them to remember it so I get in touch in the morning and see if we had psychic powers or not. They were a bit confused at first but they came to accept it.
I never get round to raising the subject with those friends but I'm still curious to find out about their own memories from that night.
  #28  
Old 09-06-2005, 08:47 AM
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Mangetout Mangetout is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yohan go
Do you mind if I write a novel based on your expirience?
Already been done, more or less; Better Than Life in the Red Dwarf series - the characters take part in an immersive VR game called Better Than Life (the demand for which was so high that the crowds at the launch had to be controlled by the deployment of rubber nuclear weapons) - Cat, Kryten and Lister all find the game to be exactly as promised - utopia in every possible sense. Rimmer - the eternal loser - ends up creating his own personal hell.
  #29  
Old 09-06-2005, 06:12 PM
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The movie "Waking Life" is a Lucid Dream story as well, though not about someone with total control.
  #30  
Old 09-07-2005, 02:09 PM
Foaming Cleanser Foaming Cleanser is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Foaming Cleanser
Do you know why that happens and how to break out of it with less effort?

SlowMindThinking No, but I've read that it is not uncommon when woken up from deep sleep.
Apparently because of this:
Quote:
Our bodies are paralyzed while we undergo REM sleep, and for good reason (lest we act out our dreams and injure ourselves). But in some small number of cases we can actually start to wake up before paralysis wears off, and yet still remain in a dreaming state.
It used to happen to me quite often, and it was extraordinarily hard to break the paralysis. In reading about it, I learned that by moving the eyes first, the paralysis was easier to break. It proved so for me.
  #31  
Old 09-15-2005, 11:15 AM
Boswell255 Boswell255 is offline
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I'd just like to say what an interesting thread, and it offers a lot of answers for many of my questions which have baffled me for years.

I'm not a frequent lucid dreamer, infact I'm not even sure they can be classed as lucid at all. The first dream i can remember must have occurred in the first few years of my education. This took the form of me being in class, getting shouted at for doing something (probably sleeping ). Then i just stand up, exclaim "wait a minute this is just a dream, you cant tell me what to do" and then drift through the wall. The wierd thing is, both the classroom interior and the outside of the school are almost photographicly correct with real life. Despite the fact i've never drifted through a wall at my old school, everything seems to be in the correct place. Most dreams i can walk out of my bedroom door and end up at the mall or something, they rarely "match up" with reality.

Anyway this seems remarkably similar to other posters dreams, most noteably Leviosaurus' post about the bully.
The phenomenon occured more recently but in a slightly more obscure manner, about a year or two ago. Again i was in class, higher up the educational ladder this time, and my Maths teacher (yes, I'm English) was talking about nothing as usual, and i just said something along the lines of "F--k this i'm off to sleep" and i fell asleep on the desk. This resulted in me having another dream.

Personally i find these kind of dreams fascinating, and the sense of power you get from blatantly falling asleep in school is...well...empowering i guess.

OK that's my personal experience over now i'm gonna join in and discuss various theories.

Personally I reckon lucid dreams are the minds way of letting us explore he world around us without actually disturbing anything (or for that matter damaging anything), in the same way as we play video games or experiment with computer simulations or "sandboxes" as they're sometimes known as.
This sort of mental "sandbox" lets us explore the world which we live in and experiment with different social and maybe even physical situations.
I've heard about "wish-fulfilment" dreams, well, maybe this is the mind letting us have control over our own dreams and what we wish for.

I'm rambling now...

I've noticed in the few LD's i've had, everything is VERY realistic. this includes peoples faces, environment, and as i mentioned physical properties of things. Maybe next time Wissdok has a lucid dream he could build a domino rally or somthing and see if it works . I wish i could have more lucid dreams myself but from what i've read here it doesn't seem like such a good thing.
  #32  
Old 09-15-2005, 09:47 PM
wissdok wissdok is offline
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I keep promising myself not to respond because I am so long-winded, but yet I can’t help myself. I want to thanks those that have responded. My original post was just to let people know that LD was often presented with only the “rosy” saleable image, while, like anything else…nothing is all good. I was, by no means, trying to claim that people shouldn’t try LD, but that it can become so common it is no longer fun.

On the power of lucid dreaming, I earlier listed some examples of some of my dreams. The fact that I didn’t use Godlike power wasn’t meant to show I don’t . It just that it is hard to remember all 25 years of my dreams, and the ones I do remember years later had some special meaning to me. As I gained more experience I have felt more relax and my dreams reflex that. My normal dreams now don’t involve trying to push “the envelop.” Like I said before, control has a trade-off, more control you have (or I, in this case), less you dream. In general I try now to go with the flow. In that sense I am lucky, that I have enough willpower that I don’t micromanage every detail. As the earlier writer mentioned about his late father, I don’t know if he meant that he directly put words into his father’s mouth or in the greater realm of dreaming, his mind …his words. If it were the former, I would consider that micromanaging. I generally chose to set the mood, environment, or overall feelings in a dream, but rarely go to the trouble to script the dialogue of the dream. In my earlier story about my girlfriend dream, I wanted some emotional element that I couldn’t get with a completely scripted dream. The frustrating part wasn’t what happened in the dream, but how easy it was to end it and start over. Outside of dreams like that, I generally ignore problems that come up in dreams, which in a way, is also control.

To stress the difference, here are two examples to help explain about control.

>Some years ago, a dream started with me in my house. While deciding what I wanted to do, I noticed that I didn’t like the view from my front window. I chose to have my house rotate 90 degrees to the right. But now I had a view of my neighbor’s shrubbery. I kept turning my house 90 degrees until I was back to the front. I then realized that I would much rather live in an apartment in metropolitan area. So I exited my house and walked across the street into my new skyscraper condo complex. Once I was in to lobby I found a staircase going down, but yet I had no desire to live below ground. So I changed the staircase to going up. Then I thought, “I want to live near the top and I am lazy, so I need an elevator instead.” Out goes the stairs and in comes an elevator. I enter the elevator and there are only 7 floors. Because I wanted to live on the 110th floor, I had to change that too. Having never since an elevator with 110 buttons, my elevator had floors 1 thru 7 plus a 110th floor button. I exited the elevator on the 110th floor to find a long hallway with one door. As I like neighbors I added 10 doors to each side of the hallways. As I entered my apartment I noticed it was just like the Odd Couples. For simplicity, I walked through the apartment and redesigned the furniture, the layout, and the view based on different television shows that I remembered. The point to this example is by the end of the dream I designed everything but had not interacted with even a single person, had any event take place, or even have time to do anything else.

.> I chose one night to show my military leadership ability by not only taking on Erwin Rommel, but also George Patton at the same time. I landed my African mercenary army in Marseille, France sometime in 1944. I split my army into two forces, one going toward Normandy-Belgium (Patton) and another going toward Frankfurt (Rommel). I didn’t plan any strategy just estimating that I would have more than a million men against each. I knew that I could easily empty Africa of all its’ people if I needed to. I did not worry about how many tanks, planes, or artillery I had…just pure numbers. Before my armies reached their objectives, I got a report that Rommel was attacking me from Northern Italy. I ignored it. As my armies progressed, so did Rommel. I could hear gunfire and artillery getting closer. By the time my armies reached their objectives, the German army was invading my port city Headquarter. Once I got word that my armies had taken their objectives, I exited my HQ into the middle of a combat ridden street(Germans everywhere) and announced to the world I had won. Combat stopped and shortly both Patton and Rommel arrived to sign their surrender.
{before someone writes about my version of history…I was dreaming so I had no ability to check a history book for historical accuracy.}


As you can see the second one was far more entertaining, and yet it took far less planning and control.

Wissdok
  #33  
Old 09-20-2005, 12:23 PM
NardVark NardVark is offline
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There is!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Measure for Measure
Hm. Maybe there's a market for repentant lucid dreamers.

Illucid dreaming?
:wally

I use dreams to create by. I draw all that I see in my dreams and sell them ultimate creations that are made out of them. Many times I will get caught talking to a person and at the same time I'm seeing where each object is to go and fill it in while they are looking at the drawing at the same time, trying to figure out "How I knew what to put there" with my mind drawn towards on what our communication is about at the same time.
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