10 commandments

Great Debates
41

Hi. Me again.

MKM said:
> I do see a moral crisis in this nation as
> a result of the attempt for the past 30-40
> years to squelch the public free
> expression of religion.

You can put the 10C up in your home, or on a sign in your yard. No one’s stopping you. I could put a sign saying “Satan Is Lord: Don’t work on Wednesdays” up. It’s a free country. But it would be inappropriate to put either of these up in mandatory public schools. That would be the endorsement of one religion view over another.

> But they [The 10C] were also the basis for
> British common law which in turn made them
> (to a somewhat lesser extent) the basis
> for the law of our Land.

No. Read them. If they were the basis for the law of our land, it would be illegal to work on Saturdays, worship any god but YHWH, or say His name in vain. And the law would apply only to men, like the 10C.

Instead, our law is based on a number of different sources, but fundamental in them is the separation of Church and State. Which is why the 10C are allowed in private CHURCH-sponsored schools, but not public STATE-sponsored schools. Separate.

> . . .it’s the moral value they [the 10C]
> have for everyone that I see as the
> importance.

Do you really feel that the instruction to not worship any god but YHWH is a universal moral instruction, applicable to Hindus?

> By contrast only 7% identify themsleves as
> atheist or agnostic and less than 1% total
> among Bhuddists, Muslims and Hindus.

If the Bill of Rights were only meant to apply to the majority, we wouldn’t need it. You say there are few non-Christians? That doesn’t mean we can safely ignore their rights; that means we have to be more careful that their rights are not trampled by the majority.

Imagine if someone wanted to put this up in public schools:

  1. Do not worship Jesus.
  2. There is no god but Vishnu.
  3. Do not work on Wednesdays.
  4. Do not use the word “Buddha” in vain.

See? You wouldn’t stand for it. You’d call it persecution. And it would be. So is posting the 10C.

Your Quadell

42

How about this for a compromise: Public schools may post the Ten Commandments, but only in the original Hebrew!

“The analyst went barking up the wrong tree, of course. I never should have mentioned unicorns to a Freudian.” – Dottie (“Jumpers” by Tom Stoppard)

43

I’m short on time right now, so I can’t respond to everything posed to me and my view. I will make a short general statement that I disagree that posting of the 10 Commandments in a public place is indoctrination of any kind. I’ve stated why above.

I honestly don’t see why there is such fear of 10 statements posted on a wall when there is free choice of whether or not to view them, much less live by them.

To the minority question posed to the hypothetical situation where I’d find myself in the minority - even as small as 5-7%. Funny, I find myself in that situation right here and I continue to hold to my personal faith and values despite what else is posted to me or placed in front of me. I don’t see why it would be any different in any other situation where I or anyone else would find themselves in the great minority.

“We love Him because He first loved us.” 1 John 4:19 †

44

Well, it looks like that’s the end of the discussion then. As per usual, it’s extremely difficult for a member of a majority to empathize with the minority.

-andros-

45

It still seems to me that the proponents of putting the Ten Commandments up in schools are trying to have it both ways.

They defend posting them by pointing to the decline of religious values in the United States, and the social ills that result. By posting the Commandments, we’d undo the damage of our increasingly secular worldview.

But, when it’s pointed out to them that elevating one religion’s code above all others and giving them the implicit sanction of the school system and the state goes against the separation of church and state and infringes on the rights of minority religions, the Ten Commandments become just a list on the wall, that you can look at or not look at.

Either they have a special meaning, or they don’t. If they do have this special religious meaning, then by all means, teach them to your children. Get your neighbors to do the same, if you can persuade them. But you can’t make the state force them on people. If they don’t have this special meaning, then why are you fighting so hard to put them up?

46

MKM, etc. and even if the 10 C form some Basis for common law, the 10C are based upon the Code of Hammurabi, which also has the benefit that there are no extant believers of the old Babylonian Gods*. If you want to post the source, POST the SOURCE!
*OK, there may be 1 or 2.

47

Excuse me? And who is in the minority in this place?

“We love Him because He first loved us.” 1 John 4:19 †

48

Well, unfortunately, this board is not a perfect demographic representation of the US; the groups who have the most influence here may have diddly-squat in the “real world”. So complaining that you are a minority here does not genuinely give you minority status anywhere outside this MB; and if you think that many of us do not understand very well what it is like to be a minority, I suspect you are sorely mistaken. Still, I give you my word of honor that even if IPUism becomes the majority religion in the US, I will never ever try to get the teachings from Her Holy Note Cards hung on the walls of public schools, because I respect your right to not have a different religion’s “moral laws” officially endorsed by our public schools. Will you promise the same about posting your religion’s particular laws? :smiley:

Like all religions, the Faith of the Invisible Pink Unicorn is based upon both logic and faith. We have faith that She is pink; logically, we know She is invisible because we can’t see Her.

49

Being a minority (and actually, I’m not convinced that Christians are a minority here) in a Internet message board is hardly the same as being a minority in the real world. It’s pretty easy for you, as an adult who can leave anytime he wants, to say that he doesn’t have any problem with being in the minority here, but what about children who are forced to attend school and simply haven’t developed the emotional strength to stand up to pressure to conform?

50

MKM: tho we do not agree, you show the courage of your convictions. Thanks for posting & livening up this debate!

51

Daniel, thank you. I’m not here to convict, condem or convert - only to share my views. I hope I’m atleast succeeding in that. :slight_smile:

Gaudere, I wasn’t complaining, I was trying to get across the point that I sincerely believe that even in the minority in any situation, as in the hypothetical situations presented, that I would hold to my own convictions as I have represented here in this topic (and the several others I have been involved in the past few months) where my view has been very much in the minority.

Maybe I have too much confidence in others to be as strong in their convictions, whatever they may be, in similar situations.

“We love Him because He first loved us.” 1 John 4:19 †

52

MKM: “Maybe I have too much confidence in others to be as strong in their convictions, whatever they may be, in similar situations.”

So, you’re saying that if people felt it was okay to kill, steal, or lie, then having some sort of poster on the wall wouldn’t change their innate beliefs or behavior… Makes sense.

If the condition for posting the Ten Commandments in the school was that a Satanist could post whatever instructions for living he thought were appropriate alongside them (to give people a choice), would you still support it?

53

So because you are so firm in your convictions, you have no problems with the teaching of evolution in public schools? Or the inclusion of homosexual issues in public school curricula?

-andros-

54

You’ve got time now, and we’d love to hear you answer some of the more direct questions posted to you.

Esprix

Ask the Gay Guy!

55

No, the discussion is over because you can’t talk with someone who answers every question with, “Well that’s just the way it is,” or “that’s just the way I feel.” :rolleyes:

Esprix

Ask the Gay Guy!

56

Ow… hurts… :slight_smile:

Esprix

Ask the Gay Guy!

57

Hear, hear!

Esprix

Ask the Gay Guy!

58

Well, those topics are for another thread, but evolution taught in public schools is a fact that will not change. I dissagree with it, but I also have the responsibility as a parent that my children know what the Bible says about it also.

The homosexual agenda - I’d fight it. It has absolutley no business in the schools. It causes harm and it is true indoctrination, not anything like a plaque on a wall that might or might not be ignored. If I’m ever faced with my kids having to be subjected to that kind of indoctrination by the radical gay agenda, they will be pulled from that class.

First, I have not done that - I have given an oposing view. If andros wants to leave it at that, it’s his perogative. But to you I ask, Why is it OK for the majority here to say that the 10 commandments should not be posted in a public school, no if’s, ands or buts, but when I give an opposing view, I’m being stubborn and pig headed and not worthy of continuing a conversation with?

I’ll be careful that I don’t trip over that piece of irony as I exit the door, thank you.

“We love Him because He first loved us.” 1 John 4:19 †

59

I think the point is that others have rather eloquently articulated their views on the constitutionality of posting the Ten Commandments, the value of the 10Cs as a general guide to morality and the potential impact of the 10Cs on student behavior.

Your contribution has been more along the lines of “I believe the Ten Commandments are God’s message to us, so I want them in the schools and tough for everyone with different religious beliefs.” I’m not trying to mock your position, but it does fall a little short in addressing the concerns other people have raised.

Up, up and away!

60

With all due respect Clark K, if you go back and read my posts - they were directly related to the moral aspect of the 10 Comandments, and not on the religious aspect. Instead, it was the others who are all worried about the religious aspect of them.

“We love Him because He first loved us.” 1 John 4:19 †