12 year old killed by gator, humans respond

The BBQ Pit
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I hope this may help some of you on both sides (pro gator/poor child, family and friends)
My daughter was warned to NEVER go to a sand pit on the property next door where she liked to go to catch bullfrog tadpoles. She was warned about the drop-offs and how dangerous they can be, how so many children drown in them. The day after a most severe warning she sneaked off with her younger brother and her friend. She sneaked away and she drowned. Did she deserve it? No. Is it her fault? Yes

She was almost 11, she was a very bright girl who attended William and Mary University as part of the “Gifted” program, so she wasn’t stupid. Maybe she thought she was so smart she thought she knew better. She was hard headed.
I know it was her fault. I don’t want or need the pit filled in or have a fence around it even though it was offered(revenge). I doubt anyone will ever go there again for a long time except to visit the place where she died. The death of a child devastates a community.
If it had been gators who lost the fear of humans I would eradicate the threat! Possibly with prejudice even though I hope not. Revenge is not for me. Protection is the reason.
I’m appalled at some of the comments made that are so callous about the loss of a child. He wasn’t stupid, he did a stupid thing, the last he’ll ever do. He may have been trying to show (in a dumb way) how brave he was.
In a perfect world you can keep your eyes on your kids 24/7. In the real world in only take seconds for them to get a head start and there are so many directions for you to go looking. I don’t blame my ex or her husband for my daughters loss. It would be the easy way out but the wrong way out. It’s also cruel to them, I know they feel guilty enough on their own, hell I feel guilty and I was out of town when it happened.
So, don’t try to blame, try to understand.

BTW, she was a great swimmer, an ocean swimmer that could swim quite far for her age. At the sandpit she panicked when she went from water a few inches deep to water around 10 feet deep.

The pond was NOT thinning the herd! She, and this little boy, were NOT culled! They were someone’s bright shining stars who were snuffed before their time. These comment of “culling and thinning” really piss me off and tThat is something hard to do. They are children for crying out loud!

Ratty’s attitude of “my pity does not extend to those who by recklessness and stupidity bring about their own demise, however untimely.” is wrong. Children, as stated earlier, are stupid by nature. Sometimes the think they know so much and they are wrong. They make mistakes. The loss of any child by any means is a tragedy. To say this loss is greater than that misses the point entirely. They are all losses and they are all horrible ones.

Casdave’s words are shameful.
If you haven’t lost a child you can never understand how much else dies too. Nothing will ever be the same and the sun never rises. The poor family. His friends who saw and the community where he lived.

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I am so sorry for your loss Tunabreath.

As I said earlier, I don’t know if I have ever been so disgusted with Dopers as when I read the “thinning of the herd” and other haetful comments posted in this thread.

My little brother was 7 years old when he died, this year he would have turned 17. It was his fault for riding in the street and not wearing his bike helmet. He most certainly did not deserve to be slammed in the temple with the front corner of a car driven by an 84 year old woman who became flustered and confused and hit the gas instead of the brake.

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I have to say that I have never seen us this divided over an issue such as this before, but then I have only been a member since 2000.

I get so frustrated sometimes when I cannot articulate what I am thinking, but I would like to try and let someone else refine my thoughts, if needed:

Instinctively, a Mama Bear will protect her cubs. It’s instinctive, which means she doesn’t have to think about it, right? She just does it naturally.

As a higher form of mammal, we do have to think about protecting our young and we do this by verbal communication and explaining actions and their consequences and most of the time we succeed.

But we cannot be with our young all the time so we have to try to trust them and hope that they will be okay for the time they are out of our sight.

This was not the case with our little 12 year old boy. He made a wrong choice and lost his life as a result. It’s easy to look through the retrospectroscope, but it won’t bring him back.

No, it wasn’t “thinning the herd”, and whoever posted that should be ashamed. It was misfortune, and if you can’t feel for the child, then at least spare a thought for his mother and father, and yes, the whole community as tunabreath says.

Bottom line: You cannot and should not expect a child to be able to make reasonable adult decisions. This is why we have laws that protect our kids. To think otherwise is just wrong. They don’t come out of the womb that way and they don’t get that way at age 12.

Sorry to ramble, and I hope I made at least a little sense.

Q

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Thank you Diane, I’m sorry for you and your brother as well, little good that it does. I know. My little gal would be 12 this July. Her brother and her friend saw it happen.

You mad sense Quasimodem just fine.

Hell, I feel bad when I hear of the loss of (most, not the bad ones)adults too young to go regardless of how.
Just because we (All of us who ever had fun as a kid) were lucky enough to survive doesn’t make us better somehow. I’ve jumped off tall bridges where others died, found that out afterwards. I’m sure I swam with sharks, couldn’t see evidence of them but it’s likely so, and will do so again because I love the ocean. I know I swam near gators (not intentionally) because I saw it. Thank God it was as afraid of me as I was of it, I was only 5 or 6 and it was smaller than my older sister who was with me.

I was immortal. I’m an adult now and am no longer so. This wisdom usually comes with age.
Most kids don’t comprehend the finality of death and are unafraid, they are immortal too.

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I was listening to talk radio today in the car. The radio host (not sure of his name) suggested that Florida go on a mass killing spree to rid the state of all the alligators living in close proximity to man. Which, by my estimation, is just about all of them.

Of course, that’s just nuts. Isn’t it? I know that the gator population is alleged by some to exceed the human population in Florida (17 million?). I doubt the gator population is quite that large.

This is the mating season–for gators anyway. They get a bit feisty. Perhaps in a few months all this lunacy will calm down.

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For me this was never about the boy. Most kids around this age will do dangerously dumb things, it’s part of growing up and learning. Maybe he could be the local school’s hero right now if this tragedy hadn’t happened. I just don’t see the reasons for killing those animals and I don’t see why the gator population should be thinned for presenting a danger to irresponsable 12 year olds, but I think we covered that already.

Sorry for my butchering of the word “paid” before. Damn…

187

Our problem is that we distance ourselves from death, we sterilise it, make it less real, and it takes so much longer for us to get some kind of grasp of it.

Go back just 80 years, kids were far more familiar with it, from many differant directions, sometimes direct and personal, in a world without effective anti-biotics.

They had to learn far earlier that we do, a respect for their own lives and those around them, the temporary nature of life and both its tenacity and fragility.

We watch fatality acted out on tv every day, and the next episode the actor is revived for another role, the video games we play give us multiple chances, death for youngsters appears less final than it once was.

We have become too divorced from real reality, this is the result.

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These are very common. I’ve got a three course gator meal–two beagles and a shepherd. Sometimes transplants from other states or countries don’t get the word. Anyone that’s lived here should know.

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casdave:

You’re wrong-at least as regards the lovely little boy that I knew.
He grew up on a ranch. He was very familar with death in all it’s ramifications.
I don’t think his family even owned a TV.
Problem was, he was only 11.
At 11, the immorality clause was still in effect.
He had probably been lectured a million times about being careful around machinery.
He got careless one time.
He didn’t deserve to die of blood loss in a helicopter as a result.

That’s why the posters that have lost children are so hurt by some of the attitudes being expressed.
Yes, all children do stupid things at some point of their lives.
They lack the experience necessary to really understand the consequences.
That’s what makes it so very sad when a little one dies.

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Educated guess would be that they do.

Humans swim with gators all the time in Florida. MOST alligators leave humans alone. They are naturally shy.

As an example, I cite Wakulla Springs. Go there on any summer day, and you will find dozens of people swimming, including many small children. Now go to the part of the spring directly across from the swimming area, and what are you apt to see? Gators. Lots of 'em. The springs (and the Wakulla river which flows from it) are crawling with them.

What separates the swimming area from the gators? A rope across the top of the water. Not a net. A rope. Across the top of the water. Any gator could easily swim right under it, and grab a tasty 6-year-old. They don’t. Over all the decades people have been swimming there, there has only been one reported attack, when a swimmer went beyond the human area, and over into the gator area. The offending gator was killed, and there have been no problems since.

Point is that gators can generally be trusted to leave humans alone, and that you can cull the ones that don’t. That system seems to work at Wakulla. Gators don’t fuck with the humans, and the humans don’t fuck with the gators.

So to get back to your question, it seems to me that there may be such things as “rogue” gators, since most of them don’t seem interested in a human meal.

There is no shortage of gators in Florida, and I have no problem with culling agressive ones. If only the shy gators survive, then those “shy” genes get passed along, right?

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The saying in Florida is, “a fed gator is a dead gator.” Once they associate humans with food something is going to die. A dog, maybe. A child, rarely. An adult, almost never. The gator, every single time.

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Tuna, God, I’m so sorry for the loss of your daughter. For the others who have said that gators as a species are just as important than humans, or who have suggested this kid deserved to die, I hope you never experience the heart wrenching loss of a child. My God. Have you all lost your collective souls?

About gators: I visit Hilton Head once a year and see the alligators in their natural habitat. And they creep me out. Yes, yes, Steve Irwin I understand that you think they’re beautiful. I do not. The cerebral part of me understands that they serve a purpose and we shouldn’t kill them willy nilly simply because they make me nervous. Ditto for water mocassins and rattlers. However, the emotional part of me wants them all dead. For this very reason, I will NEVER live in the south and I don’t ever let my children swim in a lake in the south. People have said, “Hilton Head is so beautiful; I wish I could live here.” Me? Never. I won’t live in a place where I have to cohabitate with killer reptiles. I live in a place where my kids can swim in peace without fear that a gator is going to munch on them and play in the backyard without worrying that a freaking rattler has crawled into their play house. Yes, Ohio has shitty humidity, but hell, we don’t have killer reptiles running amouck. And that is a real selling point for me.

My heart goes out to this kid’s parents and friends. Personally I don’t give a rat’s ass that they killed 7 of these creatures for whatever reason. My dog viciously BITES a kid and he’s a dead dog. If he KILLED a child, I’d kill him myself.

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PunditLisa, don’t get me started on the venomous (has a fantastic picture of an indigo snake featured–nonvenemous) snakes. Eastern diamondbacks, pygmy rattlers, timber rattlers, coral snakes, copperheads, water moccasins / cottonmouths (same snake). We don’t have all of those in this area. We do have several. The cottonmouth is pretty scary.

Another fantastic reason not to swim in Florida lakes. Did I mention the Florida snapping turtles? I bet there are a few alligator snappers still lurking around also. Unfortunatly, that species is very hard pressed, as are many of the snakes. Some information on snake toxicity generally.

One of the best way to keep the numbers of venomous snakes down is to leave the king and indigo snakes alone. But, being large and scary, they’re almost gone.

Gators love to eat snake. That’s one of the benefits to having them around also.

tunabreath, that’s tragic. I’m sorry.

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quote:

Originally posted by In Conceivable
They aren’t being killed for revenge. They are being killed to protected other children.

I thought the article said that they were killed in trying to determine which one had killed the boy?

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I’m truly very sorry for everyone in this thread who has experienced the loss of a loved one. I can’t imagine the pain and grief you must be carrying.

Please understand- I do not believe, nor have I stated anywhere in this thread, that anyone deserved to die. “Deserve” has nothing to do with it. And this is in a way my whole point, which I will reiterate: sometimes terrible things happen, and sometimes they happen because people are stupid or reckless. This does not make them bad or inferior, it only makes them human. But they are only human, and therefore not exempt from the laws of cause and effect or simply random chance. They should not expect to be.

So many people have such feelings of superiority, that they should be allowed to do whatever they please with no repercussions, and that fault lies not with them, but with anyone or anything that dares to challenge that feeling of superiority. And it’s this attitude that so angers me, that someone or something else must be blamed, must suffer and be punished, because so many people are outraged at the way the world works. If you do something dangerous, you stand a high chance of being injured or killed. This is just the way it is, and I firmly believe the world would be a better place if people simply realized that and adjusted their behavior accordingly.

Pundit Lisa, I have always respected you as a poster. Really. But I have to say I’m shocked and saddened by what you’ve said. Aligators and snakes are not “killer reptiles running amok”- they’re just organisms like you and me, trying to get by with the minimum of fuss. Will you grudge them their place in nature, their right to exist, just because you think they’re “creepy”?

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Sorry for your loss tunabreath. But the fact that people - even 11-12 year old children, bear tragic consequences for their stupid choices, doesn’t change my opinion.

People cannot be protected from every possible danger in the world. They certainly cannot be protected from themselves if they wish to act recklessly or foolishly.

A greater percentage of kids who choose to ride bikes without helmets, swim with gators, or ignore their parents’ repeated instructions about avoiding water-filled sandpits are going to die than kids who wear their helmets, swim in safe places or at least get their foolish asses out of the water when the gators slide their asses in, or listen to their parents’ repeated stern warnings.

And that, IMO, is how it should be.

Do the dead kids “deserve” to die? Well, not if you think that means they were “bad” people to whom “bad” things should occur. But I do not think it is really a terrible thing when people bear the consequences of their reckless behavior.

Personally, I get a lot more broken up about a little kid who develops cancer, than some kid who endangers himself. Many people have commented that there isn’t exactly a shortage of alligators. Well, it doesn’t look like we are in danger of running out of 12 year old kids either.

And I feel VERY strongly about the inherent good of wild places and wildlife.

Unfortunately, I think most humans are too shortsighted or outright ignorant to realize the harm they are doing their descendants countless generations down the line when they cut down, drain, and pave increasing amounts of natural habitat. For the most part, people do not move into swamps, forests, and mountains out of necessity. Instead, it is done out of selfish preference (at least in developed countries).

Again, I far prefer that stupid and/or reckless kids die, than those who heed their parent’s warnings and exercise common sense. Recalling back to nature shows on public TV, isn’t it the foolish and reckless specimens (in addition to the old or sick) that get culled from the herd? Sorry you guys dislike having such terms applied to your particular species of beast, but your indignation does not make those terms any less accurate.

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First off, I’m sorry for eveyone here who has had a loss of a loved one. Really.

However, I do not equate careless behavior or a momentary lapse of reason with enduring stupid behavior…such as the boy in the article exhibited. He was repeatedly warned and even physically restrained, but continued to act in a stupid manner. To me, this is not the same as riding a bike in the street or accidently getting a coat caught in farm machinery.

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Dinsdale,
The loss of any child is bad regardless of the cause. There is no “better this one than that one”.
Are you one of these people who never did anything adventurous as a child? Are you saying you obeyed every order you were given? Never wanted older kids to like you? Did you never seek a thrill? Did you never make a mistake? Since when does a little kid have the same wisdom of an adult?
Do you have kids?
Sometimes it’s a case of “there but for the grace of God go I”.
My daughter was misbehaving but she was doing what she did for others. She collected bullfrog tadpoles for the kids in her science class. They, the tadpoles, take 2 years to mature. Everyone who wanted one was going to get to take at least one home to care for over the summer and bring back to class in the fall to be released. These kids were going to watch the tadpoles develop legs and begin to shorten their tail.
She wasn’t perfect but she was damn good. She had even started her own fund to give money to the homeless.
We have a great respect for nature as well, I started teaching her at an early age about the many kinds of plants and animals around our land, 47 acres. About how fragile the balance is and once upset how hard it is to find again.
Now, if there were gators, or feral dogs or cats or to many poisonous snake or any other dangerous animal near the house I would do something about it. My daughter wouldn’t like the idea of me killing a snake near the house but my main concern would be for my family’s safety. Fortunately we had a lot of king snakes near the house so it was never an issue.
Away from the house live and let live. I know that in the back of the property there are cotton mouths and copperheads, I did not hunt them, I kept an eye out for them though.
I understand the need for preservation, I despise the encroachment of developments into what was once wild. “Pave paradise and put up a parking lot” mentalities irk me to no end.
As does your attitude about “culling the herd” and your pious position judging a kid who makes a mistake to be “stupid and/or reckless”. My daughter was normally quite careful, more so than many kids that I know and she was far from stupid. She was a genius.

Since I read the news article what keeps going through my head over and over are that poor boys last words. “Help! Help! I don’t want to go!”. I keep wondering what nightmare the end must have been for him.

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tunabreath - if you aren’t going to read the whole fucking thread, I have no desire to respond to you.

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My God you’re an ass, Dinsdale.