This is the only forum this will fit in. France, Germany, and Russia were adamantly against the war in Iraq. Agreed?
The USA is now funding 18 BILLION dollars to help rebuild the infrastructure. This is being funded by American taxpayers. Doesn’t the US have a right to decide who gets to bid on jobs? There are dozens and dozens of countries who in one way or other supported the removal of of a mini-Hitler.
Countries such as Spain, Poland, Bulgaria, Azerbidjan, England, etc should have bidding rights to US monies. France tries to kill any support for Hussein being removed, because of contracts to kick in after U.N. sanctions are ended, now want to suckle at the teat of the AMERICAN taxpayer to make a buck.
News flash, it’s the United State’s money. We’ll award it as we see fit! You want to win a contract? Put up the money to go in and do something positive.
I’m not sure who to hold in contempt more. Lawyers or Fenchmen
How about venal Bush administration officials fucking over Iraqis by pissing off major debt relief donors? No? How about US foreign policy fuckwits that have the focus of an epileptic hooked to a caffeine drip? You do not start trying to rebuild relationships with allies while effectively calling them threats to national security (justification for not allowing them in on the bids).
Well, considering I did say it was American money, I’m not sure where an Ottawan has a right to complain. But while we’re on it, did you endorse or support the “Rape Rooms”? Summary executions? State-sponsored torture?
I pity you Grey, the bitterness is understandable, but not excusable.
Debt releif donors? Who the hell do you think provides most debt releif? Hint: not Canada
Dimwit, who holds the majority of Iraqi debt? Who is expecting to get paid? What consequences do you think interest on $100 Billion dollars of debt on a $24 billion dollar budget will have? Do you think that a massive default by Iraq would be a good thing? Would it make the grand American project easier? Harder? Do you expect that foreign governments holding Iraqi debt and able to retire/forgive it will be more likely to do so now that they have been label “threats to national security”?
Do you expect that international inclinations to help rebuild Iraq will be substantially increased by kicking sand in people’s faces?
As to Canadian claims, I expect none. As to my bitterness, it comes watching possibly the most inept foreign policy administration ever completely screw up a potential wonderful international effort (removal of Saddam/democracy in Iraq) while progressively isolating the US from any support anywhere.
Shouldn’t the contracts go to, well, whoever can do the best (most efficient, most cost-effective) job? Irrespective of nationality? Isn’t this best for the Iraqi civilians and the US taxpayers? Just a thought.
Dimwit? Who the hell do think will cover those previous debts? We came up with the Marshall Plan, then paid for it. Can you cite something showing that Germany and France EVER paid us back? We use our vast wealth for many good things.
Just be glad we’re here protecting North America so you can have a national health system not run by Moscow.
To clarify it a bit. Russian and France hold about $16 Billion in Iraqi debt. Do you suppose for a brief glimmering minute that perhaps, if you wanted them to forgive say $8 Billion, you might want to let them at a couple of hundred Million dollar contracts? Oh and not insult them.
SeekingTruth you must have a wonderful relationship with your bank. :rolleyes:
The pay back from the Marshall plan was a Europe that wasn’t reduced to a rump Soviet state.
The point is that if the US really wants to help Iraq (and you do don’t you?) then you need to remove or reduce its debt to a level that won’t lead to a complete collapse of the nascent democracy you’re hoping to install. Do you get this? You are pissing the people off that hold the debt. If you really want to pay off $100-$200 Billion in debt, by all means knock yourselves out. Given the howls of outrage over $87 Billion (mostly for US forces), I’m betting it wont happen.
Fine, let them collect from Saddam, since he’s the one that wrote the contracts. Americans want to help the Iraqi’s return to the glorious days they once held as the jewel of the desert. $8 Bil each to France and Russia? It’s pocket change. This is principle, something Ottawa doesn’t seem to fathom. No wonder Western Canadians are so pissed about you Easterners.
Let’s make a truce, send a check to France and Russia to make up for lost contracts, then I’ll buy into your conviction on this. As a bonus, you can show where Canada came into this, as far as contracts in Iraq.
You don’t have a clue about what happened before the war. You’ve just bought the shite that was thrown at you. France said they didn’t see the reason for an immediate attack. And guess what? THEY HAVE BEEN PROVEN RIGHT. The US and allies entered into a war of aggression with stated reasons that were horseshit. Don’t even try to give me the humanitarian crap. It’s a lot of bollocks and you know it. Power, money and ideology are behind this war nothing else.
If a French, German or whatever company can deliver the goods at the right price then they should get the job. Best for the US taxpayer and more importantly best for the Iraqi people who you seem to care about a lot.
The US looking like they are just in it for the money is no surprise to me or many other people. Even your allies like the UK have criticised this decision and also criticised the size of the “bone” the US have thrown them.
Lets see if you’re as gung-ho next year when the equivalent of your countries education budget is needed again most likely.
Wrong. The debt was not exclusively for armed forces which I suppose you could lay at his feet. That remainder is infrastructure and war reparations. Both owed by the current and future governments of Iraq.
I suppose you’d like to present that to the US public? It wouldn’t be easier to let them bid on contracts, wax on about their desire for a stable middle east and forgive the debt that way? You’d rather waste billions than millions?
I don’t care one whit about Canadian contracts. The fact is that unless the Bush administration lops off it god damned tin ears Iraq is going to be an open sore for years. That its costs (financial and human) could be reduced through an actual foreign policy that doesn’t rely exclusively on grade school chest thumping is my greatest concern.
As to Canada putting money in, $300 million is our contribution to Iraq. That’d be about $3 billion from you.
Interesting you put it that way. Germany opposed the war, but allowed the US military to use our bases there and German airspace to push troops and materiel into the Gulf region.
If Germany really wanted to get snarky with the US, they could have forbid the use of their territory for any of those actions. But they didn’t. They disagreed with the war, but acted like grown-ups and let the US do our thing.
And I’m not even touching on how Germany has helped us out in Afghanstan, being an early leader of the 5,000 troops that provide security in Kabul.
Now the Pentagon and the White House play this childish game of treating Germany like a pariah. Didn’t our countries used to be allies?
It’s long past time for this White House to stop acting like a spoiled brat. And some people think that this foolishness is what constitutes leadership. Bah.
This is starting to be argued all over the board. First In the pit ( I will grant this one is badly named and has fallen off the first page) And a second one in http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=228466] Great Debates
Your arguments that it is our money and we should spend it the way we want would be ok. if it wasnt that the way the Bush administration is choosing to allocate the contracts didn’t seem like it was going to cost the United States much more in the long run, both in terms of money and the lives Bush says he has a duty to honor. I want the Germans and the French and whoever else wants to play to have people on the ground in Iraq that need protecting. That is the most likely to get more troups to help our men there. At this point some of our closest allies. Countries who sent people and money to Afganistan ( You remember Afganistan right? Those folks that really actualy had something to ddo with 9/11) Are at the point of saying to our country, “Fuck you then. Deal with it yourself.” This, at the same time we badly need their help. We need that debt relief, and we need more soldiers on the ground. The Bush administration is doing everything it can to make that not happen. I believe their will be American families that will have to plan funerals because of this stance.
Would those be the American families whose sons and daughters got killed in the Iraq adventure itself, or the ones who just couldn’t feed their kids because the expense of Bush’s compulsive policy zig-zagging bankrupted the nation?
If Bush doesn’t want to play kissyface with France and Canada, he should declare war and get it over with. This wishy-washy love you, hate you thing accomplishes nothing and costs us taxpayers tons of money.
Embrace the evil GW, and fire either Condi and Colin, or Rummy and Wolfie. -your choice.